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Without blood there is no...whoops

Tumah

Tumah

Veteran Member
Leviticus 5:11-13

And if his hand not reach to two turtle-doves or to two sons of doves; and he shall bring his sacrifice [for that] which he sinned, a tenth of an Eifah [of] fine flour. He shall not put on it oil and he shall not give on it frankincense for it is a sin-offering.
And he shall bring it to the priest. And the priest shall [take] a full fist-full of its reminder. And he shall sacrifice it on the alter on the fires of G-d. It is a sin-offering.
And atonement shall the priest make for his sin which he sinned from one of these (three forms) and he shall be forgiven. And it shall be for the priest as a meal-offering.
 
Tumah

Tumah

Veteran Member
I'll just wait for the Christians to get here.
Then we can discuss Hebrews 9:22 and their approach to sacrifices.
 
crossfire

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic ☿
Premium Member
disciple said:
Can you explain the premise/idea/ theory of the OP?

Not following tbh...
Click to expand...

Let me bring you up to speed:

Hebrews 9:22
22 According to the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.​

Tumah refuted this is the OP. Notice the part he bolded:
"and he shall bring his sacrifice [for that] which he sinned, a tenth of an Eifah [of] fine flour."
<...>
"It is a sin-offering."​

But here's the real kicker, which he didn't bold:
And atonement shall the priest make for his sin which he sinned from one of these (three forms) and he shall be forgiven.​

The grain offering contains no blood, yet can serve as a means of atonement and forgiveness, and it is straight out of the Hebrew Law. This completely refutes Paul's statement at Hebrews 9:22 (the first scripture in this post.)
 
D

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
crossfire said:
Let me bring you up to speed:

Hebrews 9:22
22 According to the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
​
Tumah refuted this is the OP. Notice the part he bolded:
"and he shall bring his sacrifice [for that] which he sinned, a tenth of an Eifah [of] fine flour."
<...>
"It is a sin-offering."
​
But here's the real kicker, which he didn't bold:
And atonement shall the priest make for his sin which he sinned from one of these (three forms) and he shall be forgiven.
​
The grain offering contains no blood, yet can serve as a means of atonement and forgiveness, and it is straight out of the Hebrew Law. This completely refutes Paul's statement at Hebrews 9:22 (the first scripture in this post.)
Click to expand...


Aren't the turtle doves a sacrifice?
 
crossfire

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic ☿
Premium Member
crossfire said:
Yep. But they are not necessary. Just a (bloodless) grain offering would be sufficient, as the scripture says.
Click to expand...
Another scripture to consider in this context:

Ecclesiastes 5:1
Walk prudently when you go to the house of God; and draw near to hear rather than to give the sacrifice of fools, for they do not know that they do evil.​

I would say that killing innocents is evil, wouldn't you? Jesus was innocent, and did not deserve to die. If Jesus returned, how many would kill him again? Have we learned our lesson yet?
 
CynthiaCypher

CynthiaCypher

Well-Known Member
crossfire said:
Another scripture to consider in this context:

Ecclesiastes 5:1
Walk prudently when you go to the house of God; and draw near to hear rather than to give the sacrifice of fools, for they do not know that they do evil.​

I would say that killing innocents is evil, wouldn't you? Jesus was innocent, and did not deserve to die. If Jesus returned, how many would kill him again? Have we learned our lesson yet?
Click to expand...

And this:

For I desire lovingkindness, not sacrifice, and I want you to know Me more than burnt offerings. Hosea 6:6
 
crossfire

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic ☿
Premium Member
disciple said:
Great, but what exactly does this have to do with Jesus? And weren't there still sacrifices taking place in Israel?
Click to expand...
Blood sacrifices are for those who don't understand, with the hope of shocking them into understanding that cruelty is not productive, and leads to self-delusion. Forgive, and you will be forgiven. Mercy is greater than sacrifice.

Jesus said:
Matthew 9:13
But go and learn what this means: &#8216;I desire mercy and not sacrifice.&#8217; For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.&#8221;

Matthew 12:7
But if you had known what this means, &#8216;I desire mercy and not sacrifice,&#8217; you would not have condemned the guiltless.​

It wasn't long after Jesus was killed that the temple where the sacrifices were made was destroyed, and he foretold this in Matt. 24
 
D

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
crossfire said:
Blood sacrifices are for those who don't understand, with the hope of shocking them into understanding that cruelty is not productive, and leads to self-delusion.
Click to expand...

Um.. can you explain this further, not really understanding what you mean by this comment...
 
crossfire

crossfire

LHP Mercuræn Feminist Heretic ☿
Premium Member
disciple said:
Ah, I see.
Click to expand...
Yes, and with the destruction of the temple, there were no more blood sacrifices allowed, per Lev 17:

17 The Lord spoke to Moses: 2 “Speak to Aaron, his sons, and all the Israelites and tell them: This is what the Lord has commanded: 3 Anyone from the house of Israel who slaughters an ox, sheep, or goat in the camp, or slaughters it outside the camp, 4 instead of bringing it to the entrance to the tent of meeting to present it as an offering to the Lord before His tabernacle—that person will be considered guilty. He has shed blood and must be cut off from his people. 5 This is so the Israelites will bring to the Lord the sacrifices they have been offering in the open country. They are to bring them to the priest at the entrance to the tent of meeting and offer them as fellowship sacrifices to the Lord. 6 The priest will then sprinkle the blood on the Lord’s altar at the entrance to the tent of meeting and burn the fat as a pleasing aroma to the Lord. 7 They must no longer offer their sacrifices to the goat-demons that they have prostituted themselves with. This will be a permanent statute for them throughout their generations.

8 “Say to them: Anyone from the house of Israel or from the foreigners who live among them who offers a burnt offering or a sacrifice 9 but does not bring it to the entrance to the tent of meeting to sacrifice it to the Lord, that person must be cut off from his people.​
 
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