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Without blood there is no...whoops

Tumah

Tumah

Veteran Member
InChrist said:
I think this is an example of taking one verse out of context so it appears to say something other than the entirety of the many verses and passages around it.

Much of the book of Exodus and Leviticus clearly indicate that blood is required for atonement. Exodus 24:1-8 states that the Covenant God made with Moses and the the children of Israel required blood sacrifice: And Moses took half the blood and put it in basins, and half the blood he sprinkled on the altar. Then he took the Book of the Covenant and read in the hearing of the people. And they said, “All that the Lord has said we will do, and be obedient.” And Moses took the blood, sprinkled it on the people, and said, “This is the blood of the covenant which the Lord has made with you according to all these words.” (Exodus 24:6-8)

This blood sacrifice was required everyday; Thus you shall do to Aaron and his sons, according to all that I have commanded you. Seven days you shall consecrate them. And you shall offer a bull every day as a sin offering for atonement. (Ex. 29:35-36)Now this is what you shall offer on the altar: two lambs of the first year, day by day continually. One lamb you shall offer in the morning, and the other lamb you shall offer at twilight. (Ex. 29:38-39)

Repeatedly the scriptures indicate that the priest was to either... take some of its blood with his finger, put it on the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and pour all the remaining blood at the base of the altar (Lev.. 4:30, 34)sprinkle some of the blood of the sin offering on the side of the altar, and the rest of the blood shall be drained out at the base of the altar (Lev. 5:9) I have only given three examples, but there are several.

And Leviticus 17:11 is clear that it is blood which makes atonement... For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.’

I believe that while the isolated verse ( Lev. 5:11) may make it appear that a bloodless grain offering is acceptable a careful reading shows that even this offering was to be on the altar according to the offerings made by fire to the Lord (verse 12), meaning that the grain was included on the altar with the daily blood sacrifices.

Since in Lev. 5 the required sacrifices are given in sequence from the lambs to turtledoves or pigeons and finally to fine flour as one is able my perspective is that the offering of flour was in place for those who did not own or could afford an animal. So God graciously combined the offerings of the very poor with the blood offerings of others on the altar.
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Lev. 23:9-14 discusses the Omer offering. It is made out of barley.
Then of course there is the meal-offering that accompanied many sacrifices.

Also, although your Christian Bibles may say that "it was to be offered on the altar according to the offerings made by fire to the Lord" that's not what the Hebrew actually says. What the verse actually says is:
"and [cause it to] smoke on the altar, on the fires of G-d."

So there is nothing there that actually indicates it had to be put with the other sacrifices. In fact, from the verb used here, I would say it seems like just the opposite as this verb is usually used for the incense offering, not the animal sacrifices.
 
CMike

CMike

Well-Known Member
Sacrifices were to be made at the temple in Jerusalem only.

However, no temple, no sacrifices.

G-D did say to make sacrifices but they can only be made if the conditions allowed for them to be made.

For example, G-D said to circumcise sons. However, if I have no son I can't circumcise him. The law still exists, however the conditions have to exist to warrant the execution of them.
 
InChrist

InChrist

Free4ever
Tumah said:
Lev. 23:9-14 discusses the Omer offering. It is made out of barley.
Then of course there is the meal-offering that accompanied many sacrifices.

Also, although your Christian Bibles may say that "it was to be offered on the altar according to the offerings made by fire to the Lord" that's not what the Hebrew actually says. What the verse actually says is:
"and [cause it to] smoke on the altar, on the fires of G-d."

So there is nothing there that actually indicates it had to be put with the other sacrifices. In fact, from the verb used here, I would say it seems like just the opposite as this verb is usually used for the incense offering, not the animal sacrifices.
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Is not the altar (Mizbe’ach) where the blood is sprinkled and drained out (verse 9) the same altar upon which the flour is burned (verse 12)?


And he shall sprinkle of the dahm of the chattat (sin offering) upon the side of the Mizbe’ach; and the rest of the dahm shall be pressed out at the base of the Mizbe’ach; it is a chattat (sin offering). 10 And he shall offer the second for an olah (burnt offering), according to the mishpat (prescribed manner); and the kohen shall make kapporah for him for his chattat (sin) which he hath sinned, and it shall be forgiven him.

11 But if he be not able to afford two turtledoves, or two young pigeons, then he that sinned shall bring for his korban the tenth part of an ephah of fine flour for a chattat (sin offering); he shall put no shemen upon it, neither shall he put any incense thereon; for it is a chattat (sin offering).

12 Then shall he bring it to the kohen, and the kohen shall take his handful of it, even a memorial portion thereof, and burn it on the Mizbe’ach, according to the offerings made by eish unto Hashem; it is a chattat (sin offering).
 
InChrist

InChrist

Free4ever
CMike said:
Sacrifices were to be made at the temple in Jerusalem only.

However, no temple, no sacrifices.

G-D did say to make sacrifices but they can only be made if the conditions allowed for them to be made.

For example, G-D said to circumcise sons. However, if I have no son I can't circumcise him. The law still exists, however the conditions have to exist to warrant the execution of them.
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I understand this, but I have a different perspective as to the reason there is no longer a temple and sacrifices.
 
Sleeppy

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
Hebrews 9 - David Guzik's Commentary on the Bible


Leviticus 16

And Jehovah speaketh unto Moses, after the death of the two sons of Aaron, in their drawing near before Jehovah, and they die; yea, Jehovah saith unto Moses, `Speak unto Aaron thy brother, and he cometh not in at all times unto the sanctuary within the vail, unto the front of the mercy-seat, which [is] upon the ark, and he dieth not, for in a cloud I am seen upon the mercy-seat.`With this doth Aaron come in unto the sanctuary; with a bullock, a son of the herd, for a sin-offering, and a ram for a burnt-offering; a holy linen coat he putteth on, and linen trousers are on his flesh, and with a linen girdle he girdeth himself, and with a linen mitre he wrappeth himself up; they [are] holy garments; and he hath bathed with water his flesh, and hath put them on.`And from the company of the sons of Israel he taketh two kids of the goats for a sin-offering, and one ram for a burnt-offering; and Aaron hath brought near the bullock of the sin-offering which is his own, and hath made atonement for himself, and for his house; and he hath taken the two goats, and hath caused them to stand before Jehovah, at the opening of the tent of meeting.`And Aaron hath given lots over the two goats, one lot for Jehovah, and one lot for a goat of departure; and Aaron hath brought near the goat on which the lot for Jehovah hath gone up, and hath made it a sin-offering.`And the goat on which the lot for a goat of departure hath gone up is caused to stand living before Jehovah to make atonement by it, to send it away for a goat of departure into the wilderness.`And Aaron hath brought near the bullock of the sin-offering which is his own, and hath made atonement for himself, and for his house, and hath slaughtered the bullock of the sin-offering which [is] his own, and hath taken the fulness of the censer of burning coals of fire from off the altar, from before Jehovah, and the fulness of his hands of thin spice-perfume, and hath brought [it] within the vail; and he hath put the perfume on the fire before Jehovah, and the cloud of the perfume hath covered the mercy-seat which [is] on the testimony, and he dieth not. `And he hath taken of the blood of the bullock, and hath sprinkled with his finger on the front of the mercy-seat eastward; even at the front of the mercy-seat he doth sprinkle seven times of the blood with his finger.`And he hath slaughtered the goat of the sin-offering which [is] the people's, and hath brought in its blood unto the inside of the vail, and hath done with its blood as he hath done with the blood of the bullock, and hath sprinkled it on the mercy-seat, and at the front of the mercy-seat, and he hath made atonement for the sanctuary because of the uncleanness of the sons of Israel, and because of their transgressions in all their sins; and so he doth for the tent of meeting which is tabernacling with them in the midst of their uncleannesses.
 
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Sleeppy

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
The point in Hebrews isn't that there is no forgiveness without blood, but that every year on the Day of Atonement the High Priest went in and sprinkled blood and ash over the Holiest of places for that reason.

See Nazz's post.
 
CMike

CMike

Well-Known Member
G-D said how to get forgiveness for your sins.



Genesis Chapter 4

6. And the Lord said to Cain, "Why are you annoyed, and why has your countenance fallen?

7. Is it not so that if you improve, it will be forgiven you? If you do not improve, however, at the entrance, sin is lying, and to you is its longing, but you can rule over it."

Improve and you will be forgiven, if you don't improve you won't be forgiven.

You may be tempted to sin but "you can rule over it".
 
Pegg

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
InChrist said:
I think this is an example of taking one verse out of context so it appears to say something other than the entirety of the many verses and passages around it.
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Absolutely spot on.

what Tumah failed to point out about the scripture in Leviticus 5 is this:

“‘Now if he cannot afford two turtledoves or two young pigeons, he must bring as his offering for his sin a tenth of an e′phah of fine flour for a sin offering.

Not all Isrealites could afford to buy an animal for sacrificing. The poorer isrealites were given the option of offering something they could afford.

When we put it in context, we can see that the flour and grain sacrifices were for the poor to offer as a sin offering. If you were not poor, you would have been offering the required blood sacrifices.
 
Pegg

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
CMike said:
G-D said how to get forgiveness for your sins.



Genesis Chapter 4

6. And the Lord said to Cain, "Why are you annoyed, and why has your countenance fallen?

7. Is it not so that if you improve, it will be forgiven you? If you do not improve, however, at the entrance, sin is lying, and to you is its longing, but you can rule over it."

Improve and you will be forgiven, if you don't improve you won't be forgiven.

You may be tempted to sin but "you can rule over it".
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i dont believe the original language puts it quite like this.

The hebrew literally means "will there not be an exaltation"

Even the most righteous man has still died for his sins. So God does not just wipe sins away because someone is doing good. Sin remains in us and it eventually puts us all to death.
 
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Pegg

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Sleeppy said:
The point in Hebrews isn't that there is no forgiveness without blood, but that every year on the Day of Atonement the High Priest went in and sprinkled blood and ash over the Holiest of places for that reason.

See Nazz's post.
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And this is also why Paul says at Romans 6:7 For the one who has died has been acquitted from his sin.

when our own blood is spilt, our sins are wiped out. So the only way to receive absolute forgiveness is for blood to be spilt....our blood. Abel recognised this long before his condemned parents had died so he offered a blood sacrfice. Perhaps he was hoping the blood of the animal would bring him atonement to cover his own sin and bring him back into a good standing with God?

But it is only by our own death that we get absolute forgiveness for our sins. This is what the divine law stipulates and its what God informed Adam of "in the day you eat from it you will surely die" is the divine penalty for disobedience, or sin.

This is why mankind needed a saviour.
 
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InChrist

InChrist

Free4ever
Pegg said:
And this is also why Paul says at Romans 6:7 For the one who has died has been acquitted from his sin.

when our own blood is spilt, our sins are wiped out. So the only way to receive absolute forgiveness is for blood to be spilt....our blood. Abel recognised this long before his condemned parents had died so he thought he might offer God an animal. Perhaps he was hoping the blood of the animal would cover his own.

But it is only by our own death that we get absolute forgiveness for our sins. This is what the divine law stipulates and its what God informed Adam of "in the day you eat from it you will surely die" is the divine penalty for disobedience, or sin.

This is why mankind needed a saviour.
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I must disagree and I think this verse quoted above in Romans is out of context. That passage in Romans is speaking to believers who are alive about living as if they are dead to sin and alive in Christ...Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord (verse 11), This is not in anyway indicating that anyone must or even possibly could gain absolute forgiveness for their sins by their own death or shed blood and I believe any such doctrine is diametrically opposed to the gospel of Jesus Christ. There are numerous verses and passages in the scriptures which show that believers are forgiven and cleansed from sin while they are alive and only through the blood of Christ which has already been shed once and for all.


In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace which He made to abound toward us in all wisdom and prudence...Eph. 1:7-8

He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins. Col. 1:13-14

But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.1 John 1:7-9
 
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dawny0826

dawny0826

Mother Heathen
Tumah said:
Leviticus 5:11-13

And if his hand not reach to two turtle-doves or to two sons of doves; and he shall bring his sacrifice [for that] which he sinned, a tenth of an Eifah [of] fine flour. He shall not put on it oil and he shall not give on it frankincense for it is a sin-offering.
And he shall bring it to the priest. And the priest shall [take] a full fist-full of its reminder. And he shall sacrifice it on the alter on the fires of G-d. It is a sin-offering.
And atonement shall the priest make for his sin which he sinned from one of these (three forms) and he shall be forgiven. And it shall be for the priest as a meal-offering.
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And in Leviticus 9, Moses instructs Aaron and his sons to kill a calf as a sin offering.

This isn't the only reference to sacrificial sin offerings.

What am I missing?
 
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