The Strong Delusion

sincerly said:

Hi Thief, Gen. one and two are correct. GOD finished the "Creation of ALL things" and pronounced HIS Creation as "very good". Therefore, mankind were NOT sinners because GOD hates sin. Adam and Eve were driven from Eden BECAUSE they "Sinned"---NOT because they were made such.
True, after the fact, as Jesus said, there is none reighteous , but GOD. ALL need the Born again experience that Jesus spoke concerning.
Adam and Eve had that "freewill", but Chose it in opposition to the WILL OF THE FATHER.
NO ONE has to "choose" counter to the WILL of the Father. IT is still the "Long-suffering of the Father(2Pet.3:16; 1Pet.1:18-20)) that ALL will "choose" to Repent and be saved into that "paradise of the earth made new" which was HIS (alternate)PLAN from the "Beginning".

All flesh dies the physical death and, without the "new Birth," have been sentenced or choosen to die the second (spiritual) death.

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I don't see the garden event as a failed test.
The choice was given and the consequence at hand.
The choice was made....knowledge....even as death was pending.

Man was intended to be that creature to seek knowledge even when death is at hand.

We are that creature.
The alteration made in the garden had taken hold.
The specimens were then released into the environment.

It was never about ....'sin'.

Originally Posted by sincerly
Peace! KB, GOD told Adam and Eve what they should NOT do. GOD had told them what was to be the "Food"---What was meant to be eaten in maintaining their Strength and bodies in perfect balance. That they were to have dominion over HIS Creation. And to go out from Eden into all the earth.(in populating the earth).
A list of things which were contrary to the WILL of GOD was not necessary. To Obey or NOT to OBEY was the Choice.

GOD gave that list at Sinai, and in a study of the actions of those who received it is a study in the rebellion of those precepts and a lack of sharing those precepts with the rest of rebellious mankind as they had been instructed through Abraham and taught by GOD as HE lead them to process the "promised land"---which is still the "Go Ye".

Ken Brown said:

Shalom sincerly, if you are correct, why would Paul make a statement concerning that the PERFECT, Spiritual Man was NOT FIRST, but rather the carnal/natural man. Your answer above makes it appear that Adam was a perfect spiritual man, and that is not the case, he was just like the rest of "naked" mankind. Your teaching really throws out what Paul was indicating, that the SINFUL man was FIRST, and THEN the sinless Spiritual Man, all according to how Elohim deemed it to be.

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Peace KB, Paul in 1Cor. 15:1-58 is recapping the Gospel to these believers. vs.3,""""for I delivered unto you first of all which I received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures.""""
Adam was Created to live forever. NO! He was not GOD, but he was created in HIS IMAGE with HIS attributes. YES! Adam was created "carnal--flesh and blood", but Sin only was "imputed" when Adam disobeyed GOD---and that entailed the death penalty. Therefore, Paul is assuring the readers that the coming resurrection was to be accomplished because CHRIST had taken/died for the repentant sinner and HIMSELF had arisen from "death". That just as GOD had explained by and through all the prophets.

It was only when Adam disobeyed that the second Adam was necessary to be the Redeemer. One did not "redeem" a son that had not been born or property that was still in his possession. Right?
Didn't Jesus Christ acknowledge that Satan had usurped the "Owner/ruler-ship" of this creation?

Ken Brown said:

Sincerly, we are not going to learn HOW to be perfect, until we FIRST suffer in the FLESH, plain and simple. And this suffering truly teaches us, or gives us KNOWLEDGE and a true perspective of what is good AND evil, and that is why mankind HAD to eat from this Tree. Elohim wants to train and teach us how to be LIKE Him. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

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Ken, GOD is LOVE! It is with focusing upon HIS attributes that one becomes changed or "Like HIM"---NOT by experiencing what is wicked/evil/through disobedience.
It was "lust" for that which was not one's to possess that tripped up Eve/Adam.
There is nothing about the Decalogue which one has to "break" in order to be in a peaceful relationship with the Creator GOD. It is a separation of that relationship which places one in an adversarial position and brings suffering.(chastisement)

Thief said:

I don't see the garden event as a failed test.
The choice was given and the consequence at hand.
The choice was made....knowledge....even as death was pending.

Man was intended to be that creature to seek knowledge even when death is at hand.

We are that creature.
The alteration made in the garden had taken hold.
The specimens were then released into the environment.

It was never about ....'sin'.

Click to expand...

Hi Thief, "Sin is a transgression of the law". (1John 3:4) There was that "Thou shalt not eat", therefore, the Scriptures are concerning the Redemption of all that was lost----mankind being the GOD'S crowning act----"in our image".

A knowledge of 'Evil" was not necessary for the happiness in a world where "LOVE" is the very center of all things.

sincerly said:

Hi Thief, "Sin is a transgression of the law". (1John 3:4) There was that "Thou shalt not eat", therefore, the Scriptures are concerning the Redemption of all that was lost----mankind being the GOD'S crowning act----"in our image".

A knowledge of 'Evil" was not necessary for the happiness in a world where "LOVE" is the very center of all things.

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Discipline first.
You need it in this life.
A greater discipline awaits in the next.

sincerly said:

Originally Posted by sincerly
Peace! KB, GOD told Adam and Eve what they should NOT do. GOD had told them what was to be the "Food"---What was meant to be eaten in maintaining their Strength and bodies in perfect balance. That they were to have dominion over HIS Creation. And to go out from Eden into all the earth.(in populating the earth).
A list of things which were contrary to the WILL of GOD was not necessary. To Obey or NOT to OBEY was the Choice.

GOD gave that list at Sinai, and in a study of the actions of those who received it is a study in the rebellion of those precepts and a lack of sharing those precepts with the rest of rebellious mankind as they had been instructed through Abraham and taught by GOD as HE lead them to process the "promised land"---which is still the "Go Ye".



Peace KB, Paul in 1Cor. 15:1-58 is recapping the Gospel to these believers. vs.3,""""for I delivered unto you first of all which I received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures.""""
Adam was Created to live forever. NO! He was not GOD, but he was created in HIS IMAGE with HIS attributes. YES! Adam was created "carnal--flesh and blood", but Sin only was "imputed" when Adam disobeyed GOD---and that entailed the death penalty. Therefore, Paul is assuring the readers that the coming resurrection was to be accomplished because CHRIST had taken/died for the repentant sinner and HIMSELF had arisen from "death". That just as GOD had explained by and through all the prophets.

It was only when Adam disobeyed that the second Adam was necessary to be the Redeemer. One did not "redeem" a son that had not been born or property that was still in his possession. Right?
Didn't Jesus Christ acknowledge that Satan had usurped the "Owner/ruler-ship" of this creation?

Ken, GOD is LOVE! It is with focusing upon HIS attributes that one becomes changed or "Like HIM"---NOT by experiencing what is wicked/evil/through disobedience.
It was "lust" for that which was not one's to possess that tripped up Eve/Adam.
There is nothing about the Decalogue which one has to "break" in order to be in a peaceful relationship with the Creator GOD. It is a separation of that relationship which places one in an adversarial position and brings suffering.(chastisement)

Click to expand...

Shabbat Shalom sincerly, hopefully you are remembering this day as you are commanded to do.

I have a grandson that is close to 1 year old and his parents are trying to teach him about what "hot" is. What they will do is let him touch something that is very warm (like the side of their coffee cup), and then say HOT, HOT to teach him about not getting burned or hurt by something "hot." All children are unknowledgeable about what can harm them or be good for them, and it is according to how their parents teach them that will let them KNOW. Adam and Eve were like two little unknowledgeable children with regards to knowing good and evil, and by them reaching for and taking from the fruit of disobedience, they were TAUGHT (and us also) a valuable lesson about getting "burned." You see, dying for our sin in this physical life is like touching a warm cup of coffee, but on the other hand, those who AFTER coming to a KNOWLEDGE of the Truth, who reach out their hand to commit WILLFUL sin, will be BURNED completely:

Heb 10:26 - 10:27
(26) For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
(27) But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall consume the adversaries.

This suffering in the FLESH helps to teach us PERFECTION, and that was all according to the preplanned will of Elohim so that He would be able to save as many as possible for Eternal Life. It is only those who commit sin with a "high hand," fully knowing that their willful sin KILLS Messiah, who will be consumed as an adversary. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

sincerly said:

Originally Posted by Ken Brown What you may want to consider is that Elohim created mankind with NO choice but to sin (Rms 11:32, Rms 8:20). "''

"" Adam and Eve were created FLESH, therefore, the only choice they had was to sin, being WEAK in their FLESH (Rms 8:3). ""

""He is allowing us to dwell in sin, being AGAINST Him (following after the our fleshly desires), so that we can be taught His desires, ""

Originally Posted by sincerly
Kb, is still not rightly dividing the word of GOD as Paul wrote to Timothy, but is trying to justify a wrong understanding of the verses quoted in their context.
The Righteousness(Justness) of the law is seen in that taking of the sinners penalty of death and allowing the confessing, repenting and submitting to the Father's Will to be set free from that "rightful guilt".

Muffled, rethink your "reincarnation" understanding as it is contrary to the plan of salvation. GOD will not resurrect evil---but to judge. That is why Peter admonishes all to make their calling and election sure while it is called today. One doesn't counter the last message of Revelation22:11-12.




Hi muffled, Just as KB, you are free to believe anything you choose,but it isn't what the scriptures teach. Each day GOD allows one to live is a day to consider the salvation from sin unto eternal life. Jesus stated there is only two resurrections---one for the redeemed and the other for those whose judgment is to "return to the dust" from where Created Human Beings were formed and given life by GOD.

The plan of salvation is clear and simple. Mankind chose the rebel and separate himself from GOD. During this lifetime one has, one has the choice to acknowledge his Creator GOD and repent of his rebellious ways in love and submission to the Will of the Father. Or as Peter said---"today", make your calling and election sure".
No! The Scriptures are clear. Sinning---evil choices(James 1:13-15) are made by those who are disobedient to GOD.
People come from(born to) people. And wrong ideas are perpetuated from generation to generation.
GOD created the Earth and Mesopotamia is a spot on that earth. It is scripturally well stated that Adam and Eve were the first and only Created human Beings. ALL of mankind had their origin in them.
It is relevant because the Scriptures and Jesus affirms those two resurrections. When a person dies, one either will resume "life" "eternal" or "damnation"---a return to dust(life-less).
True, Death comes and ends ones ability to made decisions.

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I believe I don't have scripture as my teacher because Jesus is my teacher and the scripture was never intended to be a lesson book.

I have my doubts but I will accept direct quotes and why one thinks He says that. In any event I believe a resurrection is a special case of re-incarnation and special cases dont make a rule for the general case.

I believe No doubt sin is taught by society but the tendency to commit sin comes with the spirit. I knew twins who had the same upbringing and one was goodhearted and the aother was mean and cruel.

I don't believe it does and I believe it has to be misinterpreted to get it to say that.

I don't believe this. I believe only the Adamic race comes from Adam. I believe as member of the Aryan race that my origins are interstellar.

There is no evidence to support this.

Thief said:

I suspect were ARE created as sinners.(without God)

No one is good but the Father.

With freewill in hand we can over come our nature....the physical.
We can be that creature that seeks knowledge though death is pending.

We CAN be more than our flesh.

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I believe A suspicion is not as good as evidence and the bibilical evidence is that man was created as a good thing.

I believe just because this is true now does not mean that it was always true from the beginning.

I believe although this is possible it is not easy and most are not on this track.

Originally Posted by sincerly
Kb, is still not rightly dividing the word of GOD as Paul wrote to Timothy, but is trying to justify a wrong understanding of the verses quoted in their context.
The Righteousness(Justness) of the law is seen in that taking of the sinners penalty of death and allowing the confessing, repenting and submitting to the Father's Will to be set free from that "rightful guilt".

Muffled, rethink your "reincarnation" understanding as it is contrary to the plan of salvation. GOD will not resurrect evil---but to judge. That is why Peter admonishes all to make their calling and election sure while it is called today. One doesn't counter the last message of Revelation22:11-12.

Hi muffled, Just as KB, you are free to believe anything you choose,but it isn't what the scriptures teach. Each day GOD allows one to live is a day to consider the salvation from sin unto eternal life. Jesus stated there is only two resurrections---one for the redeemed and the other for those whose judgment is to "return to the dust" from where Created Human Beings were formed and given life by GOD.

The plan of salvation is clear and simple. Mankind chose the rebel and separate himself from GOD. During this lifetime one has the choice to acknowledge his Creator GOD and repent of his rebellious ways in love and submission to the Will of the Father. Or as Peter said---"today", make your calling and election sure".
No! The Scriptures are clear. Sinning---evil choices(James 1:13-15) are made by those who are disobedient to GOD.
People come from(born to) people. And wrong ideas are perpetuated from generation to generation.
GOD created the Earth and Mesopotamia is a spot on that earth. It is scripturally well stated that Adam and Eve were the first and only Created human Beings. ALL of mankind had their origin in them.
It is relevant because the Scriptures and Jesus affirms those two resurrections. When a person dies, one either will resume "life" "eternal" or "damnation"---a return to dust(life-less).
True, Death comes and ends ones ability to made decisions.

Muffled said:

(1)I believe I don't have scripture as my teacher because Jesus is my teacher and the scripture was never intended to be a lesson book.

(2)I have my doubts but I will accept direct quotes and why one thinks He says that. In any event I believe a resurrection is a special case of re-incarnation and special cases dont make a rule for the general case.

(3)I believe No doubt sin is taught by society but the tendency to commit sin comes with the spirit. I knew twins who had the same upbringing and one was goodhearted and the aother was mean and cruel.

(4)I don't believe it does and I believe it has to be misinterpreted to get it to say that.

(5)I don't believe this. I believe only the Adamic race comes from Adam. I believe as member of the Aryan race that my origins are interstellar.

(6)There is no evidence to support this.

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Hi Muffled, (1)Jesus said, (Luke 24:27, 44-48), "And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself........And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things."
Then to Paul, Gal.1:11-12, "But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ".
And Paul to 2Tim.3:16,17, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."
Again: "you are free to believe anything you choose..."

(2)John 5:28-29, "Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation".
See Rev.20:5-6

(3)ideas(good or bad) are learned from parents mostly then the rest of society/media.

(4)Gen.1+2 gives no other created Humans and GOD finished HIS Creating on the Sixth day of the creation week.

(5) Acts17;23-31, "And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;

(6) See #2 Neither the First nor the second resurrection has occurred as yet.
There was a Prophesied special resurrection as seen in Matt.27:52-53. "And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many."

Muffled said:

I believe A suspicion is not as good as evidence and the bibilical evidence is that man was created as a good thing.

I believe just because this is true now does not mean that it was always true from the beginning.

I believe although this is possible it is not easy and most are not on this track.

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Offer a better 'suspicion'....if you have one.

and being one of the 'most' (many) is not always a good thing.
just saying..

Ken Brown said:

Shabbat Shalom sincerly, hopefully you are remembering this day as you are commanded to do.

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Hi Ken, Indeed, I did have a blessed Sabbath day in communion with The Creator of all things. The Sabbath is a weekly reminder of who is in charge of all things. Man may think he has the answers, but the purpose for which GOD Created all things will ultimately be achieved. GOD is "long-suffering"and as Mal.3:17declares, GOD is "making up HIS jewels"/The Obedient/Believers from all the ages and will put an end to the "Choice of knowing" "good from evil". It is the "thou shalt not" disobey that "one places in their hearts and minds".

Yes, We live after the fact. However, neither those in heaven nor any of the living from Adam and Eve had to SIN. That was a Choice--then and now. The consequences remain the same---DEATH---instead of the eternal life they had prior to disobedience.
The human family --of itself, has NO Means of reversing that death---returning to the dust ---from which they were created and given "life"---Neither the physical(first death) nor the spiritual(eternal death--second death) from which one is admonished to be "Born-again". Therefore, The Creator GOD placed the plan of salvation(Redemption) which had been made prior to Creation and set in motion with the SIN of Adam. This was seen in all those Sacrifices from Gen.3:21; 4:4 to the death of Jesus upon the Cross. 1Pet.1:18-21

Ken Brown said:

I have a grandson that is close to 1 year old and his parents are trying to teach him about what "hot" is. What they will do is let him touch something that is very warm (like the side of their coffee cup), and then say HOT, HOT to teach him about not getting burned or hurt by something "hot." All children are unknowledgeable about what can harm them or be good for them, and it is according to how their parents teach them that will let them KNOW. Adam and Eve were like two little unknowledgeable children with regards to knowing good and evil, and by them reaching for and taking from the fruit of disobedience, they were TAUGHT (and us also) a valuable lesson about getting "burned." You see, dying for our sin in this physical life is like touching a warm cup of coffee, but on the other hand, those who AFTER coming to a KNOWLEDGE of the Truth, who reach out their hand to commit WILLFUL sin, will be BURNED completely:

Heb 10:26 - 10:27
(26) For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
(27) But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall consume the adversaries.

Click to expand...

Ken, Adam and EVE were not created "unknowledgeable". They were intelligent Beings. GOD conversed with them, and GOD gave them commands which they responded to appropriately.They understood GOD and did NOT need to be "burned" in order to be "perfect"---that was their condition from the Creator's hands--"Very Good".(Made to live forever.)
The Hebrews verses attest to the Truth of those Sacrifices in the Scriptures as referring to Jesus as the redeemer for one's disobedience.

Ken Brown said:

This suffering in the FLESH helps to teach us PERFECTION, and that was all according to the preplanned will of Elohim so that He would be able to save as many as possible for Eternal Life. It is only those who commit sin with a "high hand," fully knowing that their willful sin KILLS Messiah, who will be consumed as an adversary. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

Click to expand...

Ken, Jeus Christ came teaching LOVE as the means and the law of the "kingdom of heaven". He Suffered in the flesh, because of the wrong attitudes of the people who had attached themselves to false ideas---Idols(gods), and the false "traditions and commandments of men" which claimed to show a better "righteousness"/attitude towards GOD. Pro.14:12
Adam and Eve already had life eternal and face to face communion with their Creator. They did not need the evils of " thorns", "labor which produced sweat", "painful child-birth", etc. to teach that which they alredy possessed.
HIS promises to the obedient Believer includes HIS Blessings---But one can not forget, that Jesus Said "they prosecuted me, and they will persecute you".(Remember JOB!)

Jesus gave HIS life(It was not taken) to be the redeeming propitiation for all believing of mankind.
Yes, Those with a "high hand"/arrogant attitude will not be Saved and will reap the reward that they choose.

sincerly said:

Ken, Adam and EVE were not created "unknowledgeable". They were intelligent Beings. GOD conversed with them, and GOD gave them commands which they responded to appropriately.They understood GOD and did NOT need to be "burned" in order to be "perfect"---that was their condition from the Creator's hands--"Very Good".(Made to live forever.)

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Shalom sincerly, what did it mean that they ATE from the Tree of the KNOWLEDGE of good and evil? Why would they need to eat from this tree of the knowledge of good and evil, IF they already had the knowledge of good and evil? If they understood good and evil as you think, they would more than likely had not eaten from that tree.

The other correction you need to make in your thinking is that when Elohim looked upon what He had created and said it was GOOD, do you think grass, trees, the sun, moon, stars, whales, winged fowl and every living creature that moveth was GOOD in the sense you want to apply it to Adam and Eve? What you fail to realize is that WHEN Elohim saw EVERYTHING that He had made, and behold, it was very good, it wasn't a declaration of His creation being sinless and perfect. As each day progressed, He saw that what He made was exactly as He wanted, and that was good. It is along the lines of a table I just finished. Each step of the way I looked at what I had made and saw that it was how I wanted it and it was good, and when I completed the whole table, I beheld, and it was very good. I in no way was trying to say that my table was "perfect" in the same sense as you apply it to Adam and Eve, but never the less, my table is very good.

So sincerly, take out of your thinking that Adam and Eve were created sinless and perfect just because of how EVERYTHING Elohim beheld was "very good" in the sense it turned out exactly as He had planned, not that everything was sinless and perfect. IF Elohim had looked ONLY at Adam and Eve and said they were very good, you might have a small point, but when Gen 1:31 states that Elohim saw EVERYTHING He had made (not just Adam and Eve), He was declaring that it was very good, exactly as He had planned. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

Originally Posted by sincerly
Ken, Adam and EVE were not created "unknowledgeable". They were intelligent Beings. GOD conversed with them, and GOD gave them commands which they responded to appropriately.They understood GOD and did NOT need to be "burned" in order to be "perfect"---that was their condition from the Creator's hands--"Very Good".(Made to live forever.)

Ken Brown said:

Shalom sincerly, what did it mean that they ATE from the Tree of the KNOWLEDGE of good and evil? Why would they need to eat from this tree of the knowledge of good and evil, IF they already had the knowledge of good and evil? If they understood good and evil as you think, they would more than likely had not eaten from that tree.

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Peace Ken, first--it meant that they disobeyed GOD. Second, God had said in eating from that tree, they would die. Third, they had no need to have a personal knowledge of the "results" of "evil". Fourth, they lost that face to face relationship with their Maker/Creator.

That is just it! There was no "need". GOD does not need wickedness and evil to show HIS Mercy, LOVE, Graciousness, etc.
I don't recall there being a tree on knowledge being in heaven, but Lucifer did choose disobedience,---Not the same type as Adam---but disobedience and an adversarial attitude which is still manisfest.
Evil/wickedness is foriegn to the Characteristics/Attributesof GOD.
What I am seeing and hearing in your posts is the same principles as the serpent was presenting to Eve.

Ken Brown said:

The other correction you need to make in your thinking is that when Elohim looked upon what He had created and said it was GOOD, do you think grass, trees, the sun, moon, stars, whales, winged fowl and every living creature that moveth was GOOD in the sense you want to apply it to Adam and Eve? What you fail to realize is that WHEN Elohim saw EVERYTHING that He had made, and behold, it was very good, it wasn't a declaration of His creation being sinless and perfect. As each day progressed, He saw that what He made was exactly as He wanted, and that was good. It is along the lines of a table I just finished. Each step of the way I looked at what I had made and saw that it was how I wanted it and it was good, and when I completed the whole table, I beheld, and it was very good. I in no way was trying to say that my table was "perfect" in the same sense as you apply it to Adam and Eve, but never the less, my table is very good.

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Ken, the scriptures are clear that Adam and Eve were Created in an acceptable stage which was fit to live in HIS presence forever. It was only after their "disobedience" that they were driven from the garden and forbidden access to the tree of LIFE.
You are contradicting yourself.
""it was very good, it wasn't a declaration of His creation being sinless and perfect."" and then: "He saw that what He made was exactly as He wanted""

Ken, the Scriptures tell us that there will come a day of reckoning---Judgement day---The great white Throne scene which will end all issues in this "delusion" which started in heaven and then spread to the earth.
Evil/wickedness in all forms will be eliminated. Good/LOVE will reign as was the rule of Heaven and the newly created earth. GOD's Righteousness will be triumphant in LOVE. Secured for the sinner by belief in the Atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ --before the foundation of the world. 1Pet.1:20

Ken Brown said:

So sincerly, take out of your thinking that Adam and Eve were created sinless and perfect just because of how EVERYTHING Elohim beheld was "very good" in the sense it turned out exactly as He had planned, not that everything was sinless and perfect. IF Elohim had looked ONLY at Adam and Eve and said they were very good, you might have a small point, but when Gen 1:31 states that Elohim saw EVERYTHING He had made (not just Adam and Eve), He was declaring that it was very good, exactly as He had planned. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

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Again, echos from Eden.

sincerly said:

Originally Posted by sincerly
Ken, Adam and EVE were not created "unknowledgeable". They were intelligent Beings. GOD conversed with them, and GOD gave them commands which they responded to appropriately.They understood GOD and did NOT need to be "burned" in order to be "perfect"---that was their condition from the Creator's hands--"Very Good".(Made to live forever.)

Peace Ken, first--it meant that they disobeyed GOD. Second, God had said in eating from that tree, they would die. Third, they had no need to have a personal knowledge of the "results" of "evil". Fourth, they lost that face to face relationship with their Maker/Creator.

That is just it! There was no "need". GOD does not need wickedness and evil to show HIS Mercy, LOVE, Graciousness, etc.
I don't recall there being a tree on knowledge being in heaven, but Lucifer did choose disobedience,---Not the same type as Adam---but disobedience and an adversarial attitude which is still manisfest.
Evil/wickedness is foriegn to the Characteristics/Attributesof GOD.
What I am seeing and hearing in your posts is the same principles as the serpent was presenting to Eve.

Ken, the scriptures are clear that Adam and Eve were Created in an acceptable stage which was fit to live in HIS presence forever. It was only after their "disobedience" that they were driven from the garden and forbidden access to the tree of LIFE.
You are contradicting yourself.
""it was very good, it wasn't a declaration of His creation being sinless and perfect."" and then: "He saw that what He made was exactly as He wanted""

Ken, the Scriptures tell us that there will come a day of rechoning---Judgement day---The great white Throne scene which will end all issues in this "delusion" which started in heaven and then spread to the earth.
Evil/wickedness in all forms will be eliminated. Good/LOVE will reign as was the rule of Heaven and the newly created earth. GOD's Righteousness will be triumphant in LOVE. Secured for the sinner by belief in the Atoning sacrifice of Jesus Christ --before the foundation of the world. 1Pet.1:20

Again, echos from Eden.

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Shalom sincerly, in the end, we will all be shown where the Strong Delusion resides. Will it reside with those who depend on Spiritual Welfare, or will it reside with those who understand Elohim's Plan and Purpose in training and teaching Children HOW to overcome and DO as He Wills. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

Ken Brown said:

Shalom sincerly, in the end, we will all be shown where the Strong Delusion resides. Will it reside with those who depend on Spiritual Welfare, or will it reside with those who understand Elohim's Plan and Purpose in training and teaching Children HOW to overcome and DO as He Wills. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

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Peace Ken, Yes, but, "in the end" it will be to late to repent and overcome one's delusional state of "non-belief". Daniel 7:25 is God's first expression of this attitude(He that knows the end from the beginning). Paul acknowledged it in the Church at Ephesus with this admonishing, Acts 20:28-31, "Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears."
Did it happen as GOD predicted--said to Daniel. Yes, GOD is Truth and true to HIS Word.
In 2Thess.2:3-4, Paul is reminding those who misunderstood Jesus' "I will come again". "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."
Then John in Revelation 2:4. Says this about Ephesus. "nevertheless, I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love."

Why was the strong delusion sent/given (2Thess.2:10) because "they received not the Love of the Truth, that they might be saved"? Jesus Christ the "Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world." The hearers and the doers of HIS Plan.

sincerly said:

Originally Posted by Ken Brown What you may want to consider is that Elohim created mankind with NO choice but to sin (Rms 11:32, Rms 8:20). "''

"" Adam and Eve were created FLESH, therefore, the only choice they had was to sin, being WEAK in their FLESH (Rms 8:3). ""

""He is allowing us to dwell in sin, being AGAINST Him (following after the our fleshly desires), so that we can be taught His desires, ""

Originally Posted by sincerly
Kb, is still not rightly dividing the word of GOD as Paul wrote to Timothy, but is trying to justify a wrong understanding of the verses quoted in their context.
The Righteousness(Justness) of the law is seen in that taking of the sinners penalty of death and allowing the confessing, repenting and submitting to the Father's Will to be set free from that "rightful guilt".

Muffled, rethink your "reincarnation" understanding as it is contrary to the plan of salvation. GOD will not resurrect evil---but to judge. That is why Peter admonishes all to make their calling and election sure while it is called today. One doesn't counter the last message of Revelation22:11-12.




Hi muffled, Just as KB, you are free to believe anything you choose, but it isn't what the scriptures teach. Each day GOD allows one to live is a day to consider the salvation from sin unto eternal life. Jesus stated there is only two resurrections---one for the redeemed and the other for those whose judgment is to "return to the dust" from where Created Human Beings were formed and given life by GOD.

The plan of salvation is clear and simple. Mankind chose the rebel and separate himself from GOD. During this lifetime one has, one has the choice to acknowledge his Creator GOD and repent of his rebellious ways in love and submission to the Will of the Father. Or as Peter said---"today", make your calling and election sure".
No! The Scriptures are clear. Sinning---evil choices(James 1:13-15) are made by those who are disobedient to GOD.
People come from(born to) people. And wrong ideas are perpetuated from generation to generation.
GOD created the Earth and Mesopotamia is a spot on that earth. It is scripturally well stated that Adam and Eve were the first and only Created human Beings. ALL of mankind had their origin in them.
It is relevant because the Scriptures and Jesus affirms those two resurrections. When a person dies, one either will resume "life" "eternal" or "damnation"---a return to dust(life-less).
True, Death comes and ends ones ability to made decisions.

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There was no reference given but I suspect this is the verse you are referencing: John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour cometh, in which all that are in the tombs shall hear his voice,
29 and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment.

Please notice, I believe this is not a general statement of what happens when people die but a reference of a future resurrection of the dead.

Are you postulating genetic memory? I believe there are some who believe this is possible and I am not sure it can be ruled out but there is no guarantee that a spirit whose body died would return to the same family. A good spirit can overcome an adverse family situation and an evil spirit will perform evil no matter how well raised.

I believe it doesn't say that but I will allow you to attempt to justify your interpretation.

Thief said:

I just posted otherwise, in another thread.

That event at the tree of knowledge was a test.....and we passed.

Man must be that creature that will go for the knowledge even as death is a pending consequence.

Man IS that creature.

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I believe ignorance is bliss. Knowing evil doesn't make life better. Knowing that one can have sex makes life shorter only because God can't allow people to overpopulate the world.

Muffled said:

I believe ignorance is bliss. Knowing evil doesn't make life better. Knowing that one can have sex makes life shorter only because God can't allow people to overpopulate the world.

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I suspect the ability to crossover takes a bit more than that that.
The earth will over populate.
God isn't going to stop it.

He was willing to redirect and manipulate.
(the Flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, as well as that garden event)

But Man will run his course.
And God is not going to stop it.

Muffled said:

There was no reference given but I suspect this is the verse you are referencing: John 5:28 Marvel not at this: for the hour cometh, in which all that are in the tombs shall hear his voice,
29 and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment.

(1)Please notice, I believe this is not a general statement of what happens when people die but a reference of a future resurrection of the dead.

(2)Are you postulating genetic memory? I believe there are some who believe this is possible and I am not sure it can be ruled out but there is no guarantee that a spirit whose body died would return to the same family. A good spirit can overcome an adverse family situation and an evil spirit will perform evil no matter how well raised.

(3)I believe it doesn't say that but I will allow you to attempt to justify your interpretation.

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(1)The two Resurrections are as stated in Rev.20. The first at Jesus' second coming and the Second resurrection a thousand later for the "rewards"/carrying out of the Penalty of Sinning--and not repenting in total submission to the Will of the Father.

(2)No! People teach their offspring their "beliefs"(Right or wrong). The Holy Spirit brings each into contact to the truths of the scriptures and each person "chooses for themselves" whether to reject the truth or obey what is shown by the Holy spirit.
Whether to stay deluded or walk in the light of truth.

(3)God completed the "creation of all things" in six days. Adam and Eve were given the command to "be fruitful and replenish the earth". Paul verified that fact in Acts 17:26, "And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; "

Thief said:

I suspect the ability to crossover takes a bit more than that that.
The earth will over populate.
God isn't going to stop it.

He was willing to redirect and manipulate.
(the Flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, as well as that garden event)

But Man will run his course.
And God is not going to stop it.

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Hi Thief, the teachings of the scriptures isn't in the numbers of people upon the earth, but is determined by the attitudes of those who make up the population.
Isn't that what GOD is saying in Mal.3:17, "And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him."


God didn't spare those of (the Flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, as well as that garden event), But HE did make a way of escape for ALL who choose to Obey--as those events showed HIS LOVE.

Right! Sin has to run its course and mankind has to choose his "reward"--that which appears as Gold or that which is GOLD.

sincerly said:

Hi Thief, the teachings of the scriptures isn't in the numbers of people upon the earth, but is determined by the attitudes of those who make up the population.
Isn't that what GOD is saying in Mal.3:17, "And they shall be mine, saith the LORD of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him."


God didn't spare those of (the Flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, as well as that garden event), But HE did make a way of escape for ALL who choose to Obey--as those events showed HIS LOVE.

Right! Sin has to run its course and mankind has to choose his "reward"--that which appears as Gold or that which is GOLD.

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I think we are saying the same thing....

The quality of spirit is sought.
The peace of heaven is guarded.

So if the Earth becomes overrun by people that can't survive in the spirit...
then the population is corrupt and correction is required.

Of course, sooner or later, the extent of Man's ability here will play out.
Man will sooner or later fade away.