The Strong Delusion

[Thief]

Originally Posted by sincerly
Hi Thief, Mankind was created in the image of his Creator.
Yes, THE CARPENTER did say, Matt.5:48, "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

Prefection as the CARPENTER discribed in that parable Mark4:26-29 is possible when seen in connection/(light of) to John 3:16.
Add to that Heb.12:1 "the putting away that little sin which so easily besets one".
No one has to sin--it is a choice--determined action. and when one's confession and repentance and submission leads to the "blotting out" of sins/mistakes/flaws then one stands before GOD as flawless as the Blood of Jesus Christ can cleanse one.

One is no longer "carnal", but "spiritual".

The "effort" is in the promised sacrifice of Jesus Christ, not in mankind's "side-stepping" the issue which caused the problem---Sin=Death.



Of course, one can believe anything that pleases one; but since one is examining the Bible/the instructions given to mankind by the Creator GOD, then it is what is written in those pages which determines what is doing the cleansing/blotting out of one's transgressions.
That was seen in John 3:16(as shown above). and also, in Lev.17:11. It is Blood that "atones" for sins---one's own or that of a substitute (and only that of Christ Jesus can fulfill the requirement).

True. One's actions/decisions determine the "reward".

Since GOD Created all things, including mankind, all are HIS Children. As you posted, and Scriptures confirm, Perfection(obey and live) or Damnation(disobey and die).

I don't believe whatever I please to.

Blood does not atone for sin.
We are to share the blood....not shed it.
We are to be of one Father.

As soon as you let go the 'atonement' notion......you are no longer 'Jewish'.

Simply be as your Father in heaven.

 

[sincerly]

Hi sincerly, can't you start to "see" it? That Elohim SOLD mankind INTO the slavery of fleshly sin, the manner or type of sin that ALL will be forgiven for (Matt 12:31), so that He could REDEEM us OUT from that slavery, and TRULY turn us to become slaves or servants of His Righteousness, so that He could KEEP us throughout all of eternity from sinning AGAINST His Spirit? Our redemption is THROUGH the Power of the Cross, as through Yeshua's suffering, death, burial, and third day resurrection as WRITTEN by Moses in Numbers 19. Numbers 19 teaches us that on the third and seventh days, the unclean are to be sprinkled with the Ashes of the Red Heifer. The third day sprinkling has occurred, and the seventh day sprinkling is at the door step. Please accept YOUR complicity and fault in condemning and slaying the Righteous One (James 5:6). Be sprinkled and then WASH/Be Baptized (Num 19:19). KB

Ken, No! I can not bend the Scriptures to "see" your delusional state for the meaning of the Scriptures. We have been through the "Red Heifer" and "ALL" scripturally is seen as those who have Accepted the Sacrifice of Jesus as payment of their Sin debt or penalty--Death. Even the red heifer was killed to produce the water of sprinkling.
Your rendering of the meaning for the Scriptures is why there is "a strong delusion".
God's Kingdom is a kingdom of LOVE and those who are among the redeemed will have a very strong LOVE relationship with the creator GOD so that evil ways will be non-existent. ("written in the heart and mind.")

P.S. sincerly, why is it that traditional christianity knows little to nothing about Numbers 19?

From our communications, your rendering of the meaning would close the study. however, I do understand and have shown you the correct plan of Salvation as given in the Scriptures by all the prophets.
Again, I leave you with 1Pet. 1:17-21. "And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear: Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God."

 

[Muffled]

Hi AJ, see the above answers.

What you may want to consider is that Elohim created mankind with NO choice but to sin (Rms 11:32, Rms 8:20). The natural or carnal man was FIRST in His plan, and then came the Messiah, the Spiritual Man (1 Cor 15:46). Natural or carnal man is AGAINST Elohim, and cannot and will not obey Him, for it is impossible to do so (Rms 8:7-8). The FLESH cannot keep the commands of Elohim, and Adam and Eve were created FLESH, therefore, the only choice they had was to sin, being WEAK in their FLESH (Rms 8:3). This was all planned for a purpose so that mankind could be taught how to love Elohim throughout all of eternity, being made STRONG through His Spirit. Those who learn the consequences of their sin, while dwelling in the flesh, and truly TURN from that sin, through the POWER of the Cross and the Spirit, will exist forever with no desire to turn back into that evil state.

Your immune system should teach you what Elohim is trying to accomplish. He is allowing us to come into contact with fleshly sin so that we can defeat the true deadly disease of Spiritual Sin, the type of sin that Satan committed. It is ONLY after coming to a knowledge of good and evil that one can truly choose how they will turn, and Adam and Eve ONLY came to a knowledge of good and evil AFTER they committed the "offense."

You should really think HOW or THROUGH what teaching method works best. Doesn't living through lessons or experiences really teach us about how we need to be, and this is what Elohim is doing with mankind, He is allowing us to dwell in sin, being AGAINST Him (following after the our fleshly desires), so that we can be taught His desires, and do them from our heart, and not from some robotic programming. Do you see His teaching method? He has allowed mankind to experience evil, so that they/we can love and learn to do good. You can't choose to DO the good, without FIRST experiencing the evil. Hopefully this helps. KB

I believe this is not true and that man was created without sin in the beginning. As the scripture says God said it was "good."

This is not creation but God allowing something to happen. It is not GOd's will for evil to abound so that mercy will abound. I believe the original creation reflects His will that all be good.

I beleive this is in error because Adam and Eve had spirits breathed into them and were not just flesh. I believe the evil already existed in those spirits from previous lives but the memory of it was not there just the tendencies.

I don't believe sin promotes the righteousness of God but actually promotes more sin.

 

[sincerly]

Originally Posted by Ken Brown What you may want to consider is that Elohim created mankind with NO choice but to sin (Rms 11:32, Rms 8:20). "''

"" Adam and Eve were created FLESH, therefore, the only choice they had was to sin, being WEAK in their FLESH (Rms 8:3). ""

""He is allowing us to dwell in sin, being AGAINST Him (following after the our fleshly desires), so that we can be taught His desires, ""

I believe this is not true and that man was created without sin in the beginning. As the scripture says God said it was "good."

This is not creation but God allowing something to happen. It is not GOd's will for evil to abound so that mercy will abound. I believe the original creation reflects His will that all be good.

I beleive this is in error because Adam and Eve had spirits breathed into them and were not just flesh. I believe the evil already existed in those spirits from previous lives but the memory of it was not there just the tendencies.

I don't believe sin promotes the righteousness of God but actually promotes more sin.

Kb, is still not rightly dividing the word of GOD as Paul wrote to Timothy, but is trying to justify a wrong understanding of the verses quoted in their context.
The Righteousness(Justness) of the law is seen in that taking of the sinners penalty of death and allowing the confessing, repenting and submitting to the Father's Will to be set free from that "rightful guilt".

Muffled, rethink your "reincarnation" understanding as it is contrary to the plan of salvation. GOD will not resurrect evil---but to judge. That is why Peter admonishes all to make their calling and election sure while it is called today. One doesn't counter the last message of Revelation22:11-12.

 

[Muffled]

Originally Posted by Ken Brown What you may want to consider is that Elohim created mankind with NO choice but to sin (Rms 11:32, Rms 8:20). "''

"" Adam and Eve were created FLESH, therefore, the only choice they had was to sin, being WEAK in their FLESH (Rms 8:3). ""

""He is allowing us to dwell in sin, being AGAINST Him (following after the our fleshly desires), so that we can be taught His desires, ""




Kb, is still not rightly dividing the word of GOD as Paul wrote to Timothy, but is trying to justify a wrong understanding of the verses quoted in their context.
The Righteousness(Justness) of the law is seen in that taking of the sinners penalty of death and allowing the confessing, repenting and submitting to the Father's Will to be set free from that "rightful guilt".

Muffled, rethink your "reincarnation" understanding as it is contrary to the plan of salvation. GOD will not resurrect evil---but to judge. That is why Peter admonishes all to make their calling and election sure while it is called today. One doesn't counter the last message of Revelation22:11-12.

I believe the more lives one has the better the chance of being saved. How is a person going to be saved if he has only one chance? Does that sound like a plan from God who wants everyone to be saved?

So are you saying that God is creating evil people? And how do you know what God will do? Have you asked Him? I see nothing in the Bible that says God is creating anyone after the origianl creation so where are these people coming from? I believe of course Jesus can be considered partly a creation but He is a special case. I believe Adam and Eve are latter creations but I believe they are re-creations cloned by the gods from a blod clot in a bone buried in the sands of Mesopotamia.

I believe he says that because he expected the end of the world to come. It is surprising how the centuries fly when you are having fun and then the end comes when it isn't expected.

I don't see how this is relevant.

 

[sincerly]

Originally Posted by Ken Brown What you may want to consider is that Elohim created mankind with NO choice but to sin (Rms 11:32, Rms 8:20). "''

"" Adam and Eve were created FLESH, therefore, the only choice they had was to sin, being WEAK in their FLESH (Rms 8:3). ""

""He is allowing us to dwell in sin, being AGAINST Him (following after the our fleshly desires), so that we can be taught His desires, ""

Originally Posted by sincerly
Kb, is still not rightly dividing the word of GOD as Paul wrote to Timothy, but is trying to justify a wrong understanding of the verses quoted in their context.
The Righteousness(Justness) of the law is seen in that taking of the sinners penalty of death and allowing the confessing, repenting and submitting to the Father's Will to be set free from that "rightful guilt".

Muffled, rethink your "reincarnation" understanding as it is contrary to the plan of salvation. GOD will not resurrect evil---but to judge. That is why Peter admonishes all to make their calling and election sure while it is called today. One doesn't counter the last message of Revelation22:11-12.

I believe the more lives one has the better the chance of being saved. How is a person going to be saved if he has only one chance? Does that sound like a plan from God who wants everyone to be saved?

So are you saying that God is creating evil people? And how do you know what God will do? Have you asked Him? I see nothing in the Bible that says God is creating anyone after the origianl creation so where are these people coming from? I believe of course Jesus can be considered partly a creation but He is a special case. I believe Adam and Eve are latter creations but I believe they are re-creations cloned by the gods from a blod clot in a bone buried in the sands of Mesopotamia.

I believe he says that because he expected the end of the world to come. It is surprising how the centuries fly when you are having fun and then the end comes when it isn't expected.

I don't see how this is relevant.

Hi muffled, Just as KB, you are free to believe anything you choose, but it isn't what the scriptures teach. Each day GOD allows one to live is a day to consider the salvation from sin unto eternal life. Jesus stated there is only two resurrections---one for the redeemed and the other for those whose judgment is to "return to the dust" from where Created Human Beings were formed and given life by GOD.

The plan of salvation is clear and simple. Mankind chose the rebel and separate himself from GOD. During this lifetime one has, one has the choice to acknowledge his Creator GOD and repent of his rebellious ways in love and submission to the Will of the Father. Or as Peter said---"today", make your calling and election sure".
No! The Scriptures are clear. Sinning---evil choices(James 1:13-15) are made by those who are disobedient to GOD.
People come from(born to) people. And wrong ideas are perpetuated from generation to generation.
GOD created the Earth and Mesopotamia is a spot on that earth. It is scripturally well stated that Adam and Eve were the first and only Created human Beings. ALL of mankind had their origin in them.
It is relevant because the Scriptures and Jesus affirms those two resurrections. When a person dies, one either will resume "life" "eternal" or "damnation"---a return to dust(life-less).
True, Death comes and ends ones ability to made decisions.

 

[look3467]

Originally Posted by Ken Brown What you may want to consider is that Elohim created mankind with NO choice but to sin (Rms 11:32, Rms 8:20). "''

I have to agree with KB.

Answer me this, say the tree of knowledge of good and evil were not in the garden, what possible way could Adam and Eve know what being good was?

I mean, if they were already good, how could they improve on it to be even better? How could they compare good from good?

If the tree were not there, then Adam and Eve would not have had the ability to choose good from evil.

A child's understandings, of Eve's eating of the fruit of the tree, to be a decision making event and a form of disobedience.

As a "though shalt not" commandment, thus having an idea of consequences via bad decision making.

That, a child can understand.

But........here it is....the "but",as older, spiritually mature individuals, as you'al and I, is to understand that our ability to judge between good and evil was an inherit-ant-intricate part of our creative being.

The tree of knowledge of good an evil simply means we have the " inherit-ant-intricate part of our creative being".

Not that Eve physically ate of anything, but figuratively.

When we are able to see it that way, we can then understand the following verse figuratively also: Psa_104:35 Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the LORD, O my soul. Praise ye the LORD.

Commentary by Barnes.....Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth - Compare Psa_37:38. This might with propriety be rendered, “Consumed are the sinners out of the earth,” expressing a fact and not a desire; and it may have been prompted by the feeling of the psalmist that such an event would occur; that is, that the time would come when sin would no more abound, but when the world would be filled with righteousness, and all the dwellers on the earth would praise God. The word translated “consumed” - from תמם tâmam - means properly to complete, to perfect, to finish, to cease. It does not mean “consume” in the sense of being burned up - as our word means - or destroyed, but merely to come to an end, to cease, to pass away: that is; Let the time soon come

Who but the second Adam was able to "consume" all sin and render us all, be it we recognize it, as saved?

Amo_5:7 Ye who turn judgment to wormwood, and leave off righteousness in the earth,

Wormwood - is the plant “absinthium.” It is used to denote metaphorically the distress and trouble which result from sin.>>>Barnes Comentaries

"Ye" who turned Wormwood.. "trouble which result from sin".. into righteousness.

Who but God Himself could do such a thing?

Blessings, AJ

 

[sincerly]

Originally Posted by Ken Brown What you may want to consider is that Elohim created mankind with NO choice but to sin (Rms 11:32, Rms 8:20).

I have to agree with KB.

AJ, you may agree with whomever you please, but it is with wisdom to agree with the Scriptures of GOD. KB's use of Romans above has been shown to be wrong scripturally.

Answer me this, say the tree of knowledge of good and evil were not in the garden, what possible way could Adam and Eve know what being good was?

I mean, if they were already good, how could they improve on it to be even better? How could they compare good from good?

If the tree were not there, then Adam and Eve would not have had the ability to choose good from evil.

A child's understandings, of Eve's eating of the fruit of the tree, to be a decision making event and a form of disobedience.

As a "though shalt not" commandment, thus having an idea of consequences via bad decision making.

That, a child can understand.

AJ, there was a "thou shalt not eat ot the tree" given. It was not a matter of good or better, but obeying or disobeying. And you "child" understands that---as well as any mature person should.

But........here it is....the "but",as older, spiritually mature individuals, as you'al and I, is to understand that our ability to judge between good and evil was an inherit-ant-intricate part of our creative being.

The tree of knowledge of good an evil simply means we have the " inherit-ant-intricate part of our creative being".

Not that Eve physically ate of anything, but figuratively.

AJ, Adam and Eve did not have to understand/have an intimate knowledge of what all evil incompassed to be in the correct relationship to GOD. GOD never wanted them to experience evil----therefore, the warning and the consequences of doing so.

Yes, GOD's plan of salvation was made and in place from "before" the foundation of the world. That doesn't mean that GOD wanted HIS SON to die and planned salvation by having Created Beings with no choice ,but to SIN/Disobey. As the Scriptures state, The Fire that Destroys the Earth and the wicked was meant only for Satan and his evil/disobedient Angels. Mankind failed to remain Obedient and turned their "dominin of the earth" over to a new master by "their choice to disobey"/do evil.

Eve, actually, physically, did eat of the fruit of the tree and gave to Adam and he ate of it, also.
The law was imputed because of a reality; Scriptures bears that out---Adam sinned.

When we are able to see it that way, we can then understand the following verse figuratively also: Psa_104:35 Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the LORD, O my soul. Praise ye the LORD.

Who but the second Adam was able to "consume" all sin and render us all, be it we recognize it, as saved?

Amo_5:7 Ye who turn judgment to wormwood, and leave off righteousness in the earth,
"Ye" who turned Wormwood.. "trouble which result from sin".. into righteousness.

Who but God Himself could do such a thing?

Blessings, AJ

John 3:16, Yes, GOD does LOVE the disobedient persons of this world enough to send HIS Son, Jesus, to die in the place of one's death penalty. However, that comes with a Repentance from the Disobeying of HIS WILL and the submitting one's will to the Father's WILL. The Scriptures and worldly history attest to the fact that many will continue to rebel at/deny having Jesus Christ as their Lord and Master.

 

[look3467]

AJ, Adam and Eve did not have to understand/have an intimate knowledge of what all evil encompassed to be in the correct relationship to GOD. GOD never wanted them to experience evil----therefore, the warning and the consequences of doing so.>>>sincerly

Sincerly,

Lets approach this issue another way by asking questions.
1. When you were born.....did you have knowledge of good and evil?
When God created Adam and Eve, they were as new born babes spiritually.
They were as new born babes with the potential to gain knowledge and make judgments. (Have a choice)

The tree of knowledge would be the same as when you begun to gain knowledge of your surroundings, the world and learning to desire things.

Even at an early age, a child can say "mine". Innocently of course, but in reality, exercising the ability to desire, to want and..... to have.

But when the age of accountability arrives, in-dependency begins to ac-cert its shelf by way of decision making.

Adam and Eve gained knowledge because God gave them the gift of intelligence. (The ability to reason)

So, how can any intelligent soul with the ability to reason not gain knowledge?

That is what separated us from God? Intelligence.

We became as the bible states "as one of us", meaning gods.
Gen_3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us...,

Gods in the flesh, as a matter of fact.

Can we deny God or accept God if we so desire? Can we obey or disobey we we so desire?

Those choices makes us as gods.

That"s the separation talked about in the words "lest" in the same verse "lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

Jesus represents the tree of life that was withheld from them, for had they reached for Him they would have lived forever.

Not before the experience of life as gods would God restore the tree of life to humanity.

Mankind was tainted by its creation under the consequence of separation.

Jesus, though born of the flesh could not be tainted because there was no separation between He and the Father, for the Father and Jesus were one and the same Spirit.

Therefore, Jesus could not be separated as Adam and Eve; by not falling under the consequences of their the creation but by the begotten-ness of the Spirit of God.

The first man Adam (Flesh) by creation brought death to the spirits of all mankind by separation and the second man Adam by the life giving Spirit of God brought salvation.

That was the whole plan of God in the creation of mankind in the flesh.

Blessings, AJ

 

[sincerly]

Sincerly, Lets approach this issue another way by asking questions.

Hi AJ, Isn't that the same approach that the serpent began conversing with Eve? Asking questions? Didn't Eve, in her intelligence of GOD'S commanded instructions, already know of what had been stated and warned concerning? In fact, she placed a bigger hedge about the "fruit" in stating "not to touch".

Jesus replied in John 17:15-17, "I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth."

Yes, they(A&E) were given that knowledge which would have "Kept them from Evil" had they been obedient to "Thy Word".
It was their decisions/choices which released the "Evil" which GOD did not want them exposed to because that would lead to the "death" that was contrary to the plan of Eternal life HE had created the family of Humanity to be a part.

GOD'S Love for the Creation which HE had made was a basic part of HIS Character---GOD is LOVE.
2 Pet. 3:9, "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance".
That Love began with Adam and Eve(However, scripturally, I would say with Lucifer and his rebellious (angels) followers.).

Concerning "the tree of knowledge of good and evil". Mankind did not need to "experience or act contrary" to what was pleasing to GOD. God had told them that Disobedience was such.

Your arguments/examples follow in the path of the father of lies.---no validity.
The assertion of self is the same act lucifer did and in rebellion refused to repent and submit to GOD'S Principles of LOVE. (seen in the multiple "I" declarations of Isa.14:12-15).

 

[Thief]

I just posted otherwise, in another thread.

That event at the tree of knowledge was a test.....and we passed.

Man must be that creature that will go for the knowledge even as death is a pending consequence.

Man IS that creature.

 

[look3467]

Originally Posted by look3467
Sincerly, Lets approach this issue another way by asking questions.

Hi AJ, Isn't that the same approach that the serpent began conversing with Eve? Asking questions? Didn't Eve, in her intelligence of GOD'S commanded instructions, already know of what had been stated and warned concerning? In fact, she placed a bigger hedge about the "fruit" in stating "not to touch".>>>sincerly

Sincerly, in order to demonstrate in story the form of Eve's ability to reason as a god, the question had to be asked. A test if you will.

By so doing, it will demonstrate mankind's ability as gods to choose right from wrong, thats it.

Because that ability imposes an ability to do evil, is where the separation takes place, since God does no evil or better yet, in God can no evil be found.

Notice I used lower case g for mankind and and upper case G for our Creator.

Only, let me emphasize, ONLY, in the flesh is the potential for evil is demonstrated.

Jesus, on the other hand, being born of the same lump of clay as the first Adam, flesh, could not sin or could not do any evil, because He was not a god, but was as God in the flesh.

That is why He is the second Adam, a type of the first but with a difference, born from above.

Because of Jesus, we are also and can be born again from above, never to die again.

Can you see the picture?

Thanks, AJ

 

[sincerly]

Sincerly, in order to demonstrate in story the form of Eve's ability to reason as a god, the question had to be asked. A test if you will.

By so doing, it will demonstrate mankind's ability as gods to choose right from wrong, thats it.

AJ, There was no reason for Adam and Eve to have any doubts in the ability of GOD nor in HIS Authority. Those instructions/Commands given by GOD were "Right". There was no need to "reason" between "right or wrong".

"as gods" wasn't the issue, they were created beings--subject to the Will of the Creator. The issue was Obedience. Just as had been the Issue in Heaven when Lucifer was cast out with the rest of his rebellious Angels. "be as gods" was the Father of lies wicked information.--meant to bequile.

Because that ability imposes an ability to do evil, is where the separation takes place, since God does no evil or better yet, in God can no evil be found.

Notice I used lower case g for mankind and and upper case G for our Creator.

Only, let me emphasize, ONLY, in the flesh is the potential for evil is demonstrated.

Jesus, on the other hand, being born of the same lump of clay as the first Adam, flesh, could not sin or could not do any evil, because He was not a god, but was as God in the flesh.

That is why He is the second Adam, a type of the first but with a difference, born from above.

AJ, the ability to choose was not the problem. No ONE has to Sin. That is the battle which a persons struggles with knowing GOD. A&E had a intimate knowledge of GOD; GOD had given them "dominion and the care of HIS Creation. It was the "Lusts" which subtly tripped up Eve.
Yes, Jesus was "flesh" and "Divinity". HE was subject to the same temptations as you and I, but sinned NOT. Had Jesus not been able to sin(as you suggested) then HE Could not have been our propitiation. He could not be subject to death as we are(the second death).

While earthlings do die the first death, the "new birth/born again" experience places one back in that condition of being right with the Creator GOD. (John 3:16)

Because of Jesus, we are also and can be born again from above, never to die again.

Can you see the picture?

Thanks, AJ

I hope you see the picture as (The shed Blood of)Jesus Christ is the propitiation for the sins of all persons from Adam to the last person to be born on this earth.

 

[Ken Brown]

Shalom All, I just want to state several things, to set the record straight.

1. This physical life is but a short breath, and it is being used by Elohim to TEACH us His Will and Ways, BY bringing us to a knowledge of "good and evil."

2. For Elohim to teach us, He had to allow us to learn FIRST what displeases Him, and this is why He created us FLESH, and gave us commandments...please consider Paul's words in Rom 7:9 and apply that to Adam and Eve concerning the COMMAND they were given.

3. As a turning point in teaching a sinner to no longer follow how they were created (as fleshly sinners), Yahweh took on the form of a man, emptying Himself of His Deity (Phil 2), and DIED According to the Scriptures by and through the sinfulness of us ALL.

4. This suffering, death, burial, and third day resurrection of Yahweh/Yeshua is the catalyst in REDEEMING sinners OUT from their sin to where they can truly from their heart, follow Elohim's ways, and learn how NOT to sin (1 Jn 3:9-10).

5. As a means of fair play, Elohim allows this Sacrifice of Yahweh/Yeshua to be a Spiritual DOING of what the Torah required sinners to do, which is sacrifice. Our sacrificing of Yahweh/Yeshua is RIGHTEOUSNESS...doing what the Torah required us to DO, and this was accomplished THROUGH our sin. Our sin is the weapon that we used in KILLING Yahweh/Yeshua, by placing Him up on the Tree, with the help of wicked men, and slaying Him. This murder of Yahweh/Yeshua by US is TURNED into RIGHTEOUSNESS, by believing IN FAITH that He is OUR offering. Plain and simple. And this IS the Power of the Cross in delivering us OUT from our sin to where we NO LONGER conform to how we were created (as sinners).

So please, come out from under the Strong Delusion in thinking that "God" requires murdering himself so that he can forgive us. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

 

[sincerly]

Shalom All, I just want to state several things, to set the record straight.

1. This physical life is but a short breath, and it is being used by Elohim to TEACH us His Will and Ways, BY bringing us to a knowledge of "good and evil."

Since, we all are sinners and in need for the "Peace" with GOD---Yes, Peace, to all. This earthly life is a "short breath" to that which GOD gave the human family a glimpse of in the lives of those antedeluvians. He had made mankind to live eternally.(as is evidenced by the "tree of life" being in the Garden.)

KB, The Lord GOD told Adam and Eve "HIS Will and Ways" in the "thou shall not". "Evil" became know in the hardships which befell upon the pair for their disobedience.
They lost the right to eternal life and was limited to the "shortened physical life" we are all subject to today. However, in that Gen.3:15 verse 0ne is given knowledge that Eternal life is still an option. JOB saw it; and the Three annual festival/Convocations pointed to the future time when all that submit to HIS Will in Repentance and Love will be restored to that initial state of a righteous relationship which GOD intended from the "Beginning".

2. For Elohim to teach us, He had to allow us to learn FIRST what displeases Him, and this is why He created us FLESH, and gave us commandments...please consider Paul's words in Rom 7:9 and apply that to Adam and Eve concerning the COMMAND they were given.

KB, As above, A&E were given the comandment to NOT Eat of the Tree before they disobeyed. The "Flesh" had nothing to do with the Disobedience. That was a self generated Choice. "Beguiled" by the Serpent's suggestions in contradistinction to the command of GOD. Rom.7:9 only attests to the fact that the "law was in place" for them to disobey it.
One wife was also a command in force(as was disobeyed at the flood).

3. As a turning point in teaching a sinner to no longer follow how they were created (as fleshly sinners), Yahweh took on the form of a man, emptying Himself of His Deity (Phil 2), and DIED According to the Scriptures by and through the sinfulness of us ALL.

KB, mankind were NOT created sinners; Mankind became sinners by their own choice.
Jesus Christ did NOT "empty HIM-self of HIS Deity", but HE did not use any of HIS powers to avoid any of the temptations which are common to mankind. He was tempted in all points like as we are.(Heb.4:15)
Yes, Jesus Christ voluntarily died the death on the cross which each of us sinners who are under the penalty for "sinning" should have received. Now the question is has one been "Born-again" as is seen in John 3:16?

4. This suffering, death, burial, and third day resurrection of Yahweh/Yeshua is the catalyst in REDEEMING sinners OUT from their sin to where they can truly from their heart, follow Elohim's ways, and learn how NOT to sin (1 Jn 3:9-10).

That acknowledging(Belief) of Jesus as dying in one's place as the sinner---separated from GOD and HIS Atoning Sacrifice is the writing of GOD'S Laws in one's heart and minds. (Jer.31:13; Heb.8:10-13)

5. As a means of fair play, Elohim allows this Sacrifice of Yahweh/Yeshua to be a Spiritual DOING of what the Torah required sinners to do, which is sacrifice. Our sacrificing of Yahweh/Yeshua is RIGHTEOUSNESS...doing what the Torah required us to DO, and this was accomplished THROUGH our sin. Our sin is the weapon that we used in KILLING Yahweh/Yeshua, by placing Him up on the Tree, with the help of wicked men, and slaying Him. This murder of Yahweh/Yeshua by US is TURNED into RIGHTEOUSNESS, by believing IN FAITH that He is OUR offering. Plain and simple. And this IS the Power of the Cross in delivering us OUT from our sin to where we NO LONGER conform to how we were created (as sinners).

So please, come out from under the Strong Delusion in thinking that "God" requires murdering himself so that he can forgive us. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

KB, the strong Delusion for some is the thinking that the Atoning Sacrifice of the Son of GOD(Jesus Christ) upon the Cross was just a "spiritual doing of the law".
Yes, the "Law"/Decalogue is Spiritual, Holy, Good, Just, and Righteous, and it is the propitiation for all sinners who Repent and Submit to the Will of the Father.
Sinners have no "Righteousness" by which they can claim to turn the Righteousness of Christ to their benefit.
Repentance from the things which is displeasing to GOD and living a submitted life in doing HIS Will will not constitute Murder because Jesus Christ "gave HIS life to be the propitiation for all who "repent and submit to HIS WILL".

The one's who murder Jesus Christ are those who reject HIS and the Father's Offer of forgiveness.

 

[Thief]

I suspect were ARE created as sinners.(without God)

No one is good but the Father.

With freewill in hand we can over come our nature....the physical.
We can be that creature that seeks knowledge though death is pending.

We CAN be more than our flesh.

 

[Ken Brown]

Shalom Sincerly, how can one choose to do good without the KNOWLEDGE of "good and evil?" Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

 

[sincerly]

I suspect were ARE created as sinners.(without God)

No one is good but the Father.

With freewill in hand we can over come our nature....the physical.
We can be that creature that seeks knowledge though death is pending.

We CAN be more than our flesh.

Hi Thief, Gen. one and two are correct. GOD finished the "Creation of ALL things" and pronounced HIS Creation as "very good". Therefore, mankind were NOT sinners because GOD hates sin. Adam and Eve were driven from Eden BECAUSE they "Sinned"---NOT because they were made such.
True, after the fact, as Jesus said, there is none reighteous , but GOD. ALL need the Born again experience that Jesus spoke concerning.
Adam and Eve had that "freewill", but Chose it in opposition to the WILL OF THE FATHER.
NO ONE has to "choose" counter to the WILL of the Father. IT is still the "Long-suffering of the Father(2Pet.3:16; 1Pet.1:18-20)) that ALL will "choose" to Repent and be saved into that "paradise of the earth made new" which was HIS (alternate)PLAN from the "Beginning".

All flesh dies the physical death and, without the "new Birth," have been sentenced or choosen to die the second (spiritual) death.

 

[sincerly]

Shalom Sincerly, how can one choose to do good without the KNOWLEDGE of "good and evil?" Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.

Peace! KB, GOD told Adam and Eve what they should NOT do. GOD had told them what was to be the "Food"---What was meant to be eaten in maintaining their Strength and bodies in perfect balance. That they were to have dominion over HIS Creation. And to go out from Eden into all the earth.(in populating the earth).
A list of things which were contrary to the WILL of GOD was not necessary. To Obey or NOT to OBEY was the Choice.

GOD gave that list at Sinai, and in a study of the actions of those who received it is a study in the rebellion of those precepts and a lack of sharing those precepts with the rest of rebellious mankind as they had been instructed through Abraham and taught by GOD as HE lead them to process the "promised land"---which is still the "Go Ye".

 

[Ken Brown]

Peace! KB, GOD told Adam and Eve what they should NOT do. GOD had told them what was to be the "Food"---What was meant to be eaten in maintaining their Strength and bodies in perfect balance. That they were to have dominion over HIS Creation. And to go out from Eden into all the earth.(in populating the earth).
A list of things which were contrary to the WILL of GOD was not necessary. To Obey or NOT to OBEY was the Choice.

GOD gave that list at Sinai, and in a study of the actions of those who received it is a study in the rebellion of those precepts and a lack of sharing those precepts with the rest of rebellious mankind as they had been instructed through Abraham and taught by GOD as HE lead them to process the "promised land"---which is still the "Go Ye".

Shalom sincerly, if you are correct, why would Paul make a statement concerning that the PERFECT, Spiritual Man was NOT FIRST, but rather the carnal/natural man. Your answer above makes it appear that Adam was a perfect spiritual man, and that is not the case, he was just like the rest of "naked" mankind. Your teaching really throws out what Paul was indicating, that the SINFUL man was FIRST, and THEN the sinless Spiritual Man, all according to how Elohim deemed it to be.

Sincerly, we are not going to learn HOW to be perfect, until we FIRST suffer in the FLESH, plain and simple. And this suffering truly teaches us, or gives us KNOWLEDGE and a true perspective of what is good AND evil, and that is why mankind HAD to eat from this Tree. Elohim wants to train and teach us how to be LIKE Him. Blessings in The Name, ImAHebrew.