Isn't it time God did something to relieve human suffering?

Opethian · Mar 7, 2006

God created man to CHOOSE to do good or not. A human becomes PERFECT by his own effort on this earth. What comes after and what role an individual's choices affect the judgement of an individual is up to God and the individual. This world is where we garner Godliness for our own efforts. To interfere with that effort and create us "perfect" would be silly. To create us and then sic a MONSTER EVIL on our collective and individual butts would also be pointless because our own efforts would not be the measure.

There is no such thing as a choice as you describe it. Our choices are nothing but our physical body collecting data from the environment and then reacting upon this information. Nothing spiritual is involved in making choices, in fact, nothing spiritual is involved in anything, anywhere... The soul and free will are just fairy tales, made to explain things we cannot yet completely analyse and interpret, and of course also to hide the fact that we are just like all other organisms on this earth, no better, no worse. Everyone wants to believe he is special, and he can make his own choices, and has a free will, but sadly this is not true. Stop deceiving yourself. A little intellectual honesty would be good for the world.

"Some things are subject to the free will of man, such as justice, equity, tyranny and injustice, in other words, good and evil actions

There is no good and evil, only cause and reaction. Good and evil are only judgments made upon certain reactions, and thus are subjective to the person who makes these judgments. You must realise that you are just an organised piece of matter, a very sophisticated robot made out of flesh and blood, and nothing more. I know it's hard, and it's much more fun to think we have souls and stuff, but you have to be honest.

it is evident and clear that these actions are, for the most part, left to the will of man.

If you would study indepth brain biology and biochemistry you would know that free will is a fairytale.

The only way to make an end to human suffering is to destroy every religion. Because every religion thinks they are better then the other ones. The jews say the follow the truth, the christians say the follow the truth, the muslims say they follow the truth. The only thing they follow are lies and the path to their grave. Religion makes slaves of mankind. Its time that mankind set their mind free. God only wants to have blood. Look what the jews have done in palestina. Killing people because they think they are better then non-jews. Not only the jews kill in the name of God. All followers of that God do evil acts.

Don't worry, after science has progressed for, say 20 more years, if we manage to not make the earth uninhabitable by then, I bet you there won't be much left of the religions of today, except maybe in the third world countries where they won't have any effect from scientifical development and have poor education.

Popeyesays · Mar 7, 2006

SCIRLIN said:
It is a fact that jews invaded palestina and killed innocent people. Now the jews are trying to clean that up. In the jewish pro movie Munich there is a jewish women that says: Who are the palestinians? where are they from?... yeah right like palestinians never existed. Thousands jews from over the world immigrated to israel (Palestina) to have more population then the palestinians. Those barbarian israeli soldiers killed even children. The Jews took control of the world media. But you cant fool me barbarians

Well, a frothing at the mouth anti-semite.

Why did all those Jews emigrate to Palestine - ILLEGALLY at that in 1946 to 1948?
Because 6,000,000 had died at the hands of fascist anti-semitism, and as a collective act of will, they chose to emigrate to a place that did not want to have them.

The British authorities tried desparately to keep them out and failed miserably. Palestine was NOT an independent country in those days - had not been an independent country since 70 AD. It was always a subjugated province and the natives were never deemed capable of taking care of themselves. The "Exodus" from Europe to Palestine was an act of will that no nation could resist.

Regards,
Scott

jewscout · Mar 7, 2006

SCIRLIN said:
It is a fact that jews invaded palestina and killed innocent people. Now the jews are trying to clean that up. In the jewish pro movie Munich there is a jewish women that says: Who are the palestinians? where are they from?... yeah right like palestinians never existed. Thousands jews from over the world immigrated to israel (Palestina) to have more population then the palestinians. Those barbarian israeli soldiers killed even children. The Jews took control of the world media. But you cant fool me barbarians

i'm sure the filth on the website you constantly plagerize from has got you believing this garbage about jewish world control is nothing more than hate and lies.

your understanding of the history of Israel, the jewish faith and the jewish people is lacking.
one should not attempt to speak intellegently on a subject they know nothing about.:tsk:

Popeyesays · Mar 7, 2006

Opethian said:
There is no such thing as a choice as you describe it. Our choices are nothing but our physical body collecting data from the environment and then reacting upon this information. Nothing spiritual is involved in making choices, in fact, nothing spiritual is involved in anything, anywhere... The soul and free will are just fairy tales, made to explain things we cannot yet completely analyse and interpret, and of course also to hide the fact that we are just like all other organisms on this earth, no better, no worse. Everyone wants to believe he is special, and he can make his own choices, and has a free will, but sadly this is not true. Stop deceiving yourself. A little intellectual honesty would be good for the world.

There is no good and evil, only cause and reaction. Good and evil are only judgments made upon certain reactions, and thus are subjective to the person who makes these judgments. You must realise that you are just an organised piece of matter, a very sophisticated robot made out of flesh and blood, and nothing more. I know it's hard, and it's much more fun to think we have souls and stuff, but you have to be honest.

If you would study indepth brain biology and biochemistry you would know that free will is a fairytale.

Don't worry, after science has progressed for, say 20 more years, if we manage to not make the earth uninhabitable by then, I bet you there won't be much left of the religions of today, except maybe in the third world countries where they won't have any effect from scientifical development and have poor education.

Utter "Piffle"

Regards,
Scott

standing_alone · Mar 7, 2006

Those barbarian israeli soldiers killed even children.

That's funny, I see all kinds of innocent people being killed on both sides, that is, innocent Israelis and innocent Palestinians. I could be wrong, but I've seen many news stories about Palestinian suicide bombers. But, I guess that's just because the media is controlled by Jews.

Neither side on this issue is innocent of committing "barbaric" acts.

may · Mar 7, 2006

Popeyesays said:
As long as one keeps waiting for God to do it, nothing will change. Its God's will that we act as mature, responsible creatures and cleap up our own mess. Here whil many have been sleeping God's Messenger has not returned just once, but three times since Christ. And the latest of those messages says the Temple HAS come in the Temple of Man, and mankind will just have to break a sweat and fulfill the Kingdom himself.

Waiting for God to do it is the worst kind of moral turpitude IN MY OWN OPINION.

Regards,
Scott

i would agree that we have to act to be a righteous person , and then we have the chance to inherit the earth, but the wicked will not,

For Jehovah is taking knowledge of the way of righteous ones,

But the very way of wicked ones will perish psalm 1;6

And just a little while longer, and the wicked one will be no more;

And you will certainly give attention to his place, and he will not be.
But the meek ones themselves will possess the earth,

And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace. psalm37;10-11

Jehovah himself examines the righteous one as well as the wicked one,

And anyone loving violence His soul certainly hates. psalm 11;5

Opethian · Mar 7, 2006

Utter "Piffle"

Regards,
Scott

Wow what a response, incredible arguments! Don't worry, I didn't expect anything more from someone who has probably never seen a biology book up close in his entire life. Ignorance is bliss, have fun!

may · Mar 7, 2006

standing_alone said:
But then if God made this Satan character, wouldn't God be responsible because he made the resister, since obviously God could have made him unable or unwilling to attempt to resist?

Yes, but from what I learned, humans became sinful because of Satan. But God created Satan, so therefore, didn't God create sin?

satan created himself as an opposer,he was made perfect . but he was not made a robot , the same way that we dont have to oppose God we have a choice. ......... example do parents create a thief? no they make themselves a thief.

pdoel · Mar 7, 2006

Karl R said:
So in other words, you haven't done anything.

Judge not, lest ye be judged. I know Rich rather well, and know quite well what he's been dealing with over the last couple years, and how much good he does to help others.

You shouldn't judge so quickly someone you know so very little about.

Popeyesays · Mar 7, 2006

Opethian said:
Wow what a response, incredible arguments! Don't worry, I didn't expect anything more from someone who has probably never seen a biology book up close in his entire life. Ignorance is bliss, have fun!

It always amuses me when atheists speak "ex cathedra". Don't make assumptions about someone else's education, it will usually bite you in the hindquarters.

I might still be alive twenty years from now, and then I can say "Utter Piffle!" with evidence.

Just for your amusement: Does belief in God mean denial of evolution - biological or any other way? Answer: NO!!!!

The whole God OR Evolution argument is utter piffle too.

Regards,
Scott

Opethian · Mar 7, 2006

Nope.

Our physical body (genetics and aging/damaging of the body etc...) + environmental factors are all that control us. Think about it, think about it very hard.

dawny0826 · Mar 7, 2006

First, keep in mind that I am an atheist, so I discuss God from a strictly hypothetical viewpoint.

Yeah, I kind of gathered that...

I think God totally screwed-up when He gave humans the ability to sin, and then chose to relegate those who do sin to burn for all eternity in hell.

And I think that you're misplacing blame.

God gave man the ability to sin but coming from MY viewpoint, HE reserved the right to do so. WHO sinned? WHO continues to sin? Man.

If God is (and always was and always will be) omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient, then He has the capability to end all human suffering. The question posed in the title of my thread is "Isn't it time God did something to relieve human suffering?"

To answer your question...no.

Humans will continue to suffer because they are in the flesh.

In CHRIST...we can find relief and refuge from suffering while in the flesh...if we CHOOSE that for ourselves. But the greatest "relief" is the spiritual freedom and healing that comes from embracing Christ. And in this regard, God already has relieved our suffering...our eternal suffering...through Christ.

Let the debate continue--but on-topic, please.

Good grief...forgive me, then.

Popeyesays · Mar 7, 2006

Opethian said:
Nope.

Our physical body (genetics and aging/damaging of the body etc...) + environmental factors are all that control us. Think about it, think about it very hard.

I think every class I taught had you in it somewhere.

God created this universe so He could leave it to us and NOT control us.

Regards,
Scott

standing_alone · Mar 7, 2006

satan created himself as an opposer,he was made perfect .

But if he was made perfect, wouldn't he have not rebelled from God?

but he was not made a robot , the same way that we dont have to oppose God we have a choice.

But if he was perfect, wouldn't he have chosen to serve God? Or does perfection have nothing to do with the concepts of "good" and "evil." Can one be the perfection of "good" and another the perfection of "evil?" But the reason we now have a choice between serving God or sinning because of Satan, isn't it?

Opethian · Mar 7, 2006

It always amuses me when atheists speak "ex cathedra". Don't make assumptions about someone else's education, it will usually bite you in the hindquarters.

I might still be alive twenty years from now, and then I can say "Utter Piffle!" with evidence.

Just for your amusement: Does belief in God mean denial of evolution - biological or any other way? Answer: NO!!!!

The whole God OR Evolution argument is utter piffle too.

Regards,
Scott

I'm not saying that I'm certain about my prediction of what will happen in 20 years, but you quoted my entire post and then said "utter piffle" which usually implies that you think my entire post is utter piffle, not just the last line.
I'm not saying belief in god means denial of evolution, and I agree that god OR evolution is utter piffle. Where in my post does anything imply that?
I'm only saying that anyone who has studied courses like biology and biochemistry and understands them, would know that there are no souls and no free will.

may · Mar 7, 2006

SCIRLIN said:
The only way to make an end to human suffering is to destroy every religion. Because every religion thinks they are better then the other ones. The jews say the follow the truth, the christians say the follow the truth, the muslims say they follow the truth. The only thing they follow are lies and the path to their grave. Religion makes slaves of mankind. Its time that mankind set their mind free. God only wants to have blood. Look what the jews have done in palestina. Killing people because they think they are better then non-jews. Not only the jews kill in the name of God. All followers of that God do evil acts.

interesting , i think God is going to do just that, that is why God is telling his people to get out of false religion .
And I heard another voice out of heaven say: "Get out of her, my people, if YOU do not want to share with her in her sins, and if YOU do not want to receive part of her plagues revelation 18;4
(2 Corinthians 6:17) "Therefore get out from among them, and separate yourselves, says Jehovah, and quit touching the unclean thing"; "and I will take YOU in.

Opethian · Mar 7, 2006

I think every class I taught had you in it somewhere.

God created this universe so He could leave it to us and NOT control us.

Good to see there are more of me. I'd love to meet them.
Anyways, your second line is just an opinion, where are the arguments?
My argument is that our actions are controlled by reacting molecules, and thought processes in the brain are also controlled by reacting molecules, which follow the laws of physics. How can this ever involve free will?

may · Mar 7, 2006

standing_alone said:
But if he was made perfect, wouldn't he have not rebelled from God?

But if he was perfect, wouldn't he have chosen to serve God? Or does perfection have nothing to do with the concepts of "good" and "evil." Can one be the perfection of "good" and another the perfection of "evil?" But the reason we now have a choice between serving God or sinning because of Satan, isn't it?

he was created perfect as a spirit creature, some spirit creatures choose to serve God , some followed satan, Jehovah could have created robots but he didnt, only Jehovah is perfect, everything else is relative.

CaptainXeroid · Mar 7, 2006

dawny0826 said:
Explain to me how GOD is "screwing" up.

I don't see God "screwing" anything up. I see man "screwing" up time and time again.

Blaming God for our actions, in my opinion, is the ultimate cop-out.

dawny0826 said:
...In CHRIST...we can find relief and refuge from suffering while in the flesh...if we CHOOSE that for ourselves. But the greatest "relief" is the spiritual freedom and healing that comes from embracing Christ. And in this regard, God already has relieved our suffering...our eternal suffering...through Christ.
...

Frubals to you for most excellent observations!

Popeyesays said:
It always amuses me when atheists speak "ex cathedra"...

I guess amuse is an good a word as any for it. I think it's a sign that deep down they really do believe in God but are afraid to express it because of some kind of juvenile need to reject their parents' beliefs.

Popeyesays · Mar 7, 2006

Opethian said:
Good to see there are more of me. I'd love to meet them.
Anyways, your second line is just an opinion, where are the arguments?
My argument is that our actions are controlled by reacting molecules, and thought processes in the brain are also controlled by reacting molecules, which follow the laws of physics. How can this ever involve free will?

Albert Einstein from - A response to a greeting sent by the Liberal Ministers' Club of New York City. Published in The Christian Register, June, 1948. Published in Ideas and Opinions, Crown Publishers, Inc., New York, 1954."
"As regards religion, on the other hand, one is generally agreed that it deals with goals and evaluations and, in general, with the emotional foundation of human thinking and acting, as far as these are not predetermined by the inalterable hereditary disposition of the human species. Religion is concerned with man's attitude toward nature at large, with the establishing of ideals for the individual and communal life, and with mutual human relationship."

And from the same source:

"As to science, we may well define it for our purpose as "methodical thinking directed toward finding regulative connections between our sensual experiences." Science, in the immediate, produces knowledge and, indirectly, means of action. It leads to methodical action if definite goals are set up in advance. For the function of setting up goals and passing statements of value transcends its domain. While it is true that science, to the extent of its grasp of causative connections, may reach important conclusions as to the compatibility and incompatibility of goals and evaluations, the independent and fundamental definitions regarding goals and values remain beyond science's reach."

And from a religious source:

"The fourth teaching of Bahá'u'lláh is the agreement of religion and science. God has endowed man with intelligence and reason whereby he is required to determine the verity of questions and propositions. If religious beliefs and opinions are found contrary to the standards of science they are mere superstitions and imaginations; for the antithesis of knowledge is ignorance, and the child of ignorance is superstition. Unquestionably there must be agreement between true religion and science. If a question be found contrary to reason, faith and belief in it are impossible and there is no outcome but wavering and vacillation."
(Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 239)

Regards,
Scott

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