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Isn't it time God did something to relieve human suffering?

Opethian

Active Member
Albert Einstein from - A response to a greeting sent by the Liberal Ministers' Club of New York City. Published in The Christian Register, June, 1948. Published in Ideas and Opinions, Crown Publishers, Inc., New York, 1954."
"As regards religion, on the other hand, one is generally agreed that it deals with goals and evaluations and, in general, with the emotional foundation of human thinking and acting, as far as these are not predetermined by the inalterable hereditary disposition of the human species. Religion is concerned with man's attitude toward nature at large, with the establishing of ideals for the individual and communal life, and with mutual human relationship."

1. Albert Einstein was a genius in physics and mathematics. Not biology.
2. You can see I bolded and colored the year, a year in which we knew almost nothing about thought processes in the brain and biochemistry. This is an area in which we are at the present doing much new discoveries which all point to the same thing. There is only the physical, and organisms are just very complex robots which have no free will.

"As to science, we may well define it for our purpose as "methodical thinking directed toward finding regulative connections between our sensual experiences." Science, in the immediate, produces knowledge and, indirectly, means of action. It leads to methodical action if definite goals are set up in advance. For the function of setting up goals and passing statements of value transcends its domain. While it is true that science, to the extent of its grasp of causative connections, may reach important conclusions as to the compatibility and incompatibility of goals and evaluations, the independent and fundamental definitions regarding goals and values remain beyond science's reach."
I don't know in which year this piece was written, but I wonder how the author feels about it today. Besides, I am not asking you to quote people's opinions, I want you to give me scientific arguments of, for example, phenomena that we can't explain with anything physical.

And from a religious source:

"The fourth teaching of Bahá'u'lláh is the agreement of religion and science. God has endowed man with intelligence and reason whereby he is required to determine the verity of questions and propositions. If religious beliefs and opinions are found contrary to the standards of science they are mere superstitions and imaginations; for the antithesis of knowledge is ignorance, and the child of ignorance is superstition. Unquestionably there must be agreement between true religion and science. If a question be found contrary to reason, faith and belief in it are impossible and there is no outcome but wavering and vacillation."
(Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith - Abdu'l-Baha Section, p. 239)

Sorry, but there is no need for religions, since we have science.
 

Popeyesays

Well-Known Member
"I don't know in which year this piece was written, but I wonder how the author feels about it today. Besides, I am not asking you to quote people's opinions, I want you to give me scientific arguments of, for example, phenomena that we can't explain with anything physical."

I cited it. an article in 1948 and published in an anthology of articles by Einstein in 1954. Einstein, if we follow your reasoning, has no opinion on it one way or the other today. If he still has an opinion on it we'll have to ask some time after we occupy the same realm as he.

As to assuming your restriction on what is evidential and what is not - AHHH!!! that is truly piffle.

Regards,
Scott
 

Opethian

Active Member
Einstein, if we follow your reasoning, has no opinion on it one way or the other today. If he still has an opinion on it we'll have to ask some time after we occupy the same realm as he.

Of course he does have an opinion on it... Where did I say he didn't? Btw I don't know about you but I don't really like going to his realm. First we have to find his buryplace and then dig him up. Yuck...
As to assuming your restriction on what is evidential and what is not - AHHH!!! that is truly piffle.

Nice to see you have yet another baffling argument :sarcastic
 

Popeyesays

Well-Known Member
Opethian said:
Of course he does have an opinion on it... Where did I say he didn't? Btw I don't know about you but I don't really like going to his realm. First we have to find his buryplace and then dig him up. Yuck...


Nice to see you have yet another baffling argument :sarcastic

I don't really have any de4sire to be pulled down to inconsequential arguments as you would have us do.

Regards,
Scott
 

roli

Born Again,Spirit Filled
[
quote=retrorich]Isn't it time God did something to relieve human suffering?
[/quote]
By nature we are a fallen race only saved and redeemed by God's grace for eternity and someday suffering will be removed for those only who trust the Christ the one who abolished death through His own death, and brought life and immortality
1Cor15: 50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a *mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed-- 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "Death is swallowed up in victory." YES AMEN
Suffering has been and will be our vice until Christ returns but there will be a great exchange someday and that is our hope.

If you have experienced anything in your adult life or childhood for that matter ,would you not agree that suffering ,hardship,trials,adversity and the like all do something very productive for the individual,regardless of it's cons .

I mean if your mother and father rescued you and always did things for you to prevent any difficulties in your life what kind of a person would you be.
Spoiled ,co-dependent, insecure, lack confidence and immaturity to name a few.

You would not make it in this world without adversity.
If we are honest with ourselves and just reflect on our own past to verify this.

First question to ask is "who is it that causes the suffering initially," would you expect the parent to eliviate all forms of suffering and consequences of a child who continually climbs a tree and who through their refusal to listen, obey and adhere after repeated instructions continually fall out of that tree.

First of all it, would be impossible to constantly prevent in a fallen,wicked and depraved world
second ,it would help the child learn to trust and obey and believe the parent and respect authority.
Not to say you just let your kid fall to learn him a lesson,but it will happen and it is a painful lesson to learn and one that is inevitable.
Man has been so arrogant,self serving, self appointing from birth and we must by our sinful nature defy,resist and struggle against authority of those who tells what ,when and how to do things.Consequences will be the result.
That is why man suffers the way he does,they have to be selfish and a history of famine,wars,dictatorships,prejudices,greed,hate,humanism,Gnosticism,and all the "ISM'S" that man has adopted to express their view of things in this world has not brought about the intended outcome, but only grief ,pain ,anguish and suffering.

Third and most importantly through, suffering and adversities we must see our limitations and boundaries that govern and regulate life and that these are required to live.
That is an absolute and laws are fixed,regardless of what logic says.
Experience tends to prove we are finite beings and are only able to truly function naturally as we were created within certain fixed laws or absolutes. OUCH!!!!!!
When those laws are violated , consequence will be sure to follow.

God works the same way, sin came ,suffering followed ,only through Christ will we escape the impending and eternal suffering.

The parent would I suppose fall to the ground to cushion the fall of the child and I also believe the parent would risk his /her life to rescue the child.
But at what point must the child even some adults realise and take ownership and responsiability for their ignorance and willful refusal to obey and realise that the outcome is self inflicted.

The bible warns of impending danger for those who refuse to obey God's standards and laws and even their conscience warns a man through guilt,regret,accusation and as well justification and that is a key to willful disobedience,Justification,excuses and rationalizations.
All pain and suffering will end when Christ sets up His Kingdom here on earth through,Jesus came to suffer and die on behalf of sinful men and to be an example for us to follow,which by the way is the ultimate form of suffering,and payment for our eternal suffering that will be incurred
 

Opethian

Active Member
Good, I hope you enjoy your life of ignorance. Really, I mean this, no hard feelings, since I realise you are just the product of your environment and your DNA structure. You never had a choice in the first place, so the fact that you can't comprehend that you don't have free will nor a soul isn't your fault.
Realising this is a very good way of rationalizing. It's very hard for me to get mad at someone/something, unless I know that this action will have a good effect, such as preventing bad actions in the future. I see things for what they really are, I don't rely on secundary signals.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
retrorich said:
Isn't it time God did something to relieve human suffering?

Where did you get the idea that God is some sort of an "ace in the hole" -- that, if we "rub the lamp" in the right way, God will appear like a genie and solve all our problems? Humanity must learn to aspire to God -- God has never been available to us in the form of The Magic Fairy Godmother, granting wishes.

God has done something to relieve human suffering. God stands in solidarity with us in our suffering. God is present to us in our suffering. But simply taking away our suffering would make us less than human. Our capacity to suffer is the same capacity we have to feel joy.

My question is: Isn't it time that we, who live in the industiralized nations, who have better food, better health care, better standards of living, safer work environments, and more leisure time than ever before in the history of humanity, spent more time living through our suffering than trying to eradicate our suffering? We have a "magic pill" for everything. We would rather self-medicate and feel nothing, as opposed to feeling pain. As a result, we have a whole culture of substance abuse.
 

Popeyesays

Well-Known Member
Opethian said:
Good, I hope you enjoy your life of ignorance. Really, I mean this, no hard feelings, since I realise you are just the product of your environment and your DNA structure. You never had a choice in the first place, so the fact that you can't comprehend that you don't have free will nor a soul isn't your fault.
Realising this is a very good way of rationalizing. It's very hard for me to get mad at someone/something, unless I know that this action will have a good effect, such as preventing bad actions in the future. I see things for what they really are, I don't rely on secundary signals.

Its a shame you have pulled the veil over your own eyes to the extent you have. That is something we usually outgrow - good luck as you become a man.

Regards,
Scott
 

Opethian

Active Member
Its a shame you have pulled the veil over your own eyes to the extent you have. That is something we usually outgrow - good luck as you become a man.

To the contrary, I have removed the veil.
 

Opethian

Active Member
Anyhow, it was fun discussing this with you (except for the piffle comments :D ).
What I was discussing is not yet provable from my side (and neither from your side of course), but I hope you are willing to keep an open mind about it (as do I, if I ever experience something that I can truly only explain by spiritual forces, souls or whatever, I will be forced to believe you, but I think the odds of that happening are very very small). Now I don't know what your educational history is, but I presume you don't know much about biology and biochemistry. I of course also don't know how much free time you have, but I think you might find a read in an advanced biology and biochemistry book quite interesting. I mean, what harm can it do, it can only make you more knowledgable in debates and get more insight into the world you live in. And if you find out that even after all that reading that you can have science live in harmony with your beliefs, the better!
 

d.

_______
Opethian said:
My argument is that our actions are controlled by reacting molecules, and thought processes in the brain are also controlled by reacting molecules, which follow the laws of physics. How can this ever involve free will?

this is like saying there is no such thing as a 'beach' because it's made up of tiny stones called sand...

if you are trying to say that the way our conscious minds operate are mainly determined by environmental/social factors, i have no problem with that. however, to use your analogy, if we are indeed 'robots made of flesh and blood' our programming is vastly more complex than, say, any computer program - not to mention the fact that we more or less program ourselves.

if you believe that our biology somehow controls us, i suggest you think about it, think about it very hard. ;)
 

Opethian

Active Member
this is like saying there is no such thing as a 'beach' because it's made up of tiny stones called sand...

This analogy doesn't make any sense at all.

if you are trying to say that the way our conscious minds operate are mainly determined by environmental/social factors, i have no problem with that. however, to use your analogy, if we are indeed 'robots made of flesh and blood' our programming is vastly more complex than, say, any computer program - not to mention the fact that we more or less program ourselves.

Indeed, our programming is vastly, very much more complex than any computer program. The fact remains that as in a computer program, there is only cause and reaction set by certain laws, which involves no free will.

if you believe that our biology somehow controls us, i suggest you think about it, think about it very hard. ;)

Our biology does not control us. We ARE the biology. There is nothing more to us than matter, controlled by cause and reaction. If you think about it, "you" and "I" don't exist. These are just abstractions of our central decision taking system, and this system only takes decisions based on the information it receives, and the way it takes these decisions are set by the laws of physics, eliminating the possibility of free will. I have thought about this for a long time, and there is no other explanation to it.
 

d.

_______
Opethian said:
This analogy doesn't make any sense at all.
it's the same as saying there is no 'soul' or 'free will' because our brain is made up of little molecules that react to the laws of physics. it's really no argument.


Opethian said:
Indeed, our programming is vastly, very much more complex than any computer program. The fact remains that as in a computer program, there is only cause and reaction set by certain laws, which involves no free will.
but my point is that the human brain does things a computer program could never do.


Opethian said:
Our biology does not control us. We ARE the biology.
exactly my point. i'm glad you agree...clears things up a bit.

Opethian said:
There is nothing more to us than matter, controlled by cause and reaction.

this i wouldn't agree with though. depends on how you define matter, sure, but the human experience goes so far beyond our physical bodies.

Opethian said:
If you think about it, "you" and "I" don't exist. These are just abstractions of our central decision taking system,
so they exist. as concepts, created by our central decision making system, as you would have it, but that doesn't mean they don't "exist".

Opethian said:
and this system only takes decisions based on the information it receives,
and the information that is stored. the resulting actions can be extremely hard to predict, because the system is so complex.

Opethian said:
and the way it takes these decisions are set by the laws of physics,
eliminating the possibility of free will.
as we just said, we are biology. so you can't really separate how the brain works from what it does. it still does the same things, except we now know what the little pieces look like. it might be me reading things into your statements, but i get the feeling you're trying to advocate some kind of biological determinism, which i can't really agree with.
 

Popeyesays

Well-Known Member
Opethian said:
Anyhow, it was fun discussing this with you (except for the piffle comments :D ).
What I was discussing is not yet provable from my side (and neither from your side of course), . . . And if you find out that even after all that reading that you can have science live in harmony with your beliefs, the better!

Please read this little quote: "A religion which does not conform with the postulates of science is merely superstition. In which sacred book do you find this thought? Tell me!
(Abdu'l-Baha, Divine Philosophy, p. 82)"

Now can you agree that I am aware of what you ask me to do. And I did not get there entirely through biological textbooks.

Perhaps we have more accord than you thought?

Regards,
Scott
 

Popeyesays

Well-Known Member
If you would like to read a book about biology AND religion try reading Guy Murchie's The Seven Mysteries of Life. He was both a scientist and a Baha`i.

edit:
"Guy Murchie wrote a vast survey of hundreds of themes related to life, each filled with cunning and often provocative observations (may there be degrees of sex, rather than just the two opposite extremes?) He even came up with a list of 32 senses, way beyond the regular five, including sense of time and sense of fear.
But his greater contribution was in the discussion of super-organisms. Murchie starts out by showing that groups sometimes behaves like individual organisms: who runs an ant colony? how do ants decide to move their nest somewhere else? It is the interaction among the individuals: some ants carry eggs and food to the new nest, some ants carry them back, and eventually one of the two competing population prevails; bees of a beehive communicate (at least as far as directing their fellow bees to food) with a language which is made of dance steps (including sounds and smells). An ant colony or a beehive behaves like an organism with its own mind: a beehive metabolizes, has a cognitive life (makes decisions), acts (it can move, attack) and so forth.
In this scenario, language can be viewed from a different perspective, as the mechanism that allows the organism to be one. Where does language come from is a question that does not only apply to humans, but to all species, each species having its own "language".
Borrowing from Lovelock, Murchie envisions the entire Earth as an organism which uses as food the heat of the sun, breathes, metabolizes and its cognition is made of many tiny parts (organisms) that communicate, exchange energy, interact. All living organisms, along with all the minerals on the surface of the Earth, compose one giant integrated system that, as a whole, controls its behavior so as to survive. And so do galaxies. After all, we are made of star dust. Life is inherent in nature. Murchie describes sand dunes, glaciers, fires, etc as living organisms, the life of metals and crystals. The question is not whether there is life outside our planet, but whether it is possible to have "nonlife".
Then Murchie turns to properties of mind. Memory is ubiquitous in nature. For example, energy conservation is a form of memory (an elastic band remembers how much energy was put into stretching it and eventually goes back to the original position). The laws of Physics describe the social life of particles. Electrons obey social laws that we decided are physical laws instead of biological laws thereby granting their behavior a different status from the behavior of bees. But this is an arbitrary decision. Mind is a universal aspect of life and energy. Murchie believes there is one huge mind, the "thinking layer" around the Earth, which corresponds to the "noosphere", a concept introduced by Teilhard de Chardin in "The Phenomenon of Man".
Individual consciousnesses are absorbed into the superconsciousness of a social group, which is part of a superconsciousness of the world. In Murchie's opinion, the world has a soul, an analogous of the Pythagoreans' "anima mundi" and of the Hindus' Atman.
Murchie also speculates on the origin of death. Death is an evolutionary advantage: immortal beings that simply split would be immutable and easy prey to environment changes. Death allows for regeneration of the race and for creation of new species. Death is a tool for change and progress. It is not a coincidence that immortality increases as creatures get more elementary (one-celled creatures simply divide in two instead of dying). "http://www.thymos.com/mind/murchie.html

Regards,
Scott
 

spookboy0

Member
Halcyon said:
Buddha teaches that suffering results from the desires created by the human mind.

It's a funny thing, but so does the Bible.

God cannot relieve suffering we create ourselves.

Untrue. God created us. So if we create something, He can destroy it.
 

may

Well-Known Member
retrorich said:
Isn't it time God did something to relieve human suffering?
now is the time, we are living in the time of the end, we are in the last days of suffering.
For his part, the God who gives peace will crush Satan under YOUR feet shortly. May the undeserved kindness of our Lord Jesus be with YOU ..........romans 16;20

For evildoers themselves will be cut off,​

But those hoping in Jehovah are the ones that will possess the earth. psalm 37;9
 
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