Christian's Birthdays and Other Holidays

james2ko said:

Either I'm getting very sleepy or your logic is as crazy as the snow we're getting here in the northeast US. Going to bed. I'd rather not observe the day revered by the non-existent/existing being with preferences, who cannot; does not; will not or whatever it is you are trying to say-- love or hate :areyoucra

Click to expand...

Love exists but it is not a being. Machines exist but are not beings. The wind exists but it has no preferences. I see your logic doesn't work if you are cold and tired. Thanks for talking to me. If you had not insulted me I might have given you a frubal.

You will want to know how I was insulted. You called my logic crazy as the snow. I don't think snow is crazy though.

Jensen said:

Giving a gift is okay, right? So give a gift, have no cake or candles or party. That would be a start wouldn't it?

Seriously, would that be okay for a Witness?

Jensen

Click to expand...

Not if it is for a birthday. Some JW don't even say anything on a birthday. When I was growing up it was just another day. No one even said anything.

JayJayDee said:

If what has been written on this thread has not convinced you, then nothing will.
Justification and minimization will continue to be offered for perpetuating pagan customs that so many are emotionally attached to. The arguments always go back to emotional appeals whilst ignoring the evidence of God's displeasure about the origins of these celebrations. :ignore:

We have given you the Bible based reasoning behind our view.
If you decide to keep on doing what you love, then by all means continue. That is your right and your choice. Just remember that all choices have consequences. If you 'love' it and God 'hates' it, you are placing yourselves in an impossible situation, in all of what you choose to continue to practice as part of your daily lives.

You don't have to listen, no one is forcing you to stop practicing these things....but you have to understand that you are no longer ignorant of the facts.

Click to expand...

With all due respect, you actually haven't given us a good reason at all. All you have been doing is quoting about what "God hates..." not anything that actually says "God hates people celebrating birthdays". I've never, ever read anything that said we could not have days of celebration in the Bible at all, and I've read every book in the Bible more than once.

Edited to add: That all said, if you see that it is a sin, then don't celebrate them. I don't see all celebrations as sin. Balloons, pin the tail on the donkey, cakes, etc don't seem sinful to me.

JayJayDee said:

Is there a problem? :ignore: Do I detect a hint of disagreement?

Click to expand...

Oh, it's not a "hint of disagreement." It's full-blown disagreement.

Do I see anyone with a big stick making you read the posts on this thread Katzpur?

But, thank you for posting all that very important information again.

Click to expand...

Perhaps you missed my point. I'm just wondering how many more times you're going to say you're done with this thread and then come right back and start in again. It's kind of like the boy who cried wolf. If you're not done with your rant, don't keep saying you are, for crying out loud.

The only people who agree with you are your fellow JWs. And no wonder! The scriptural citations you've posted are pathetically non-compelling. The following passages, posted by Savagewind provide much, much, much stronger evidence for the opposing point of view:

savagewind said:

Colossians 2:16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath.

Romans 14:5 One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.

Romans 14:3 The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them.

Ecclesiastes 3:12 I know that there is no good in them, but for a man to rejoice, and to do good in his life.

Ecclesiastes 3:13 And also that every man should eat and drink, and enjoy the good of all his labour, it is the gift of God.

Click to expand...

Jensen said:

Giving a gift is okay, right? So give a gift, have no cake or candles or party. That would be a start wouldn't it?

Seriously, would that be okay for a Witness?

Jensen

Click to expand...

hi Jensen,

there is a principle that we can follow with regard to this question.

The apostle Paul wrote: “Everything that is sold in a meat market keep eating, making no inquiry on account of your conscience.” (1*Corinthians 10:25) The meat he was referring to was the meat sacrificed in the greek and roman temples. But not all the meat was eaten during the ceremony. The left over meat would be later sold at public meat markets. Could a christian buy that meat and eat it even though it may have been part of a pagan sacrfice? Yes. And the same principle applies to a cake used a as a birthday cake at a birthday party.

Paul’s point was that, although Christians would not share in pagan worship, meat that had been sacrificed in a temple was not intrinsically contaminated. This same principle can be applied to the giving of a gift or the eating of a birthday cake if your conscience allows. (some may not mind you)

If my mother sends me a gift on my birthday (even though i tell her not to she still does) I dont have to feel that i cant accept the gift. But would I deliberately choose to give my child a gift 'because its her birthday'?

This is where 'intent' come into the equation. I can give my child a gift any day of the year if its simply a gift from me to her.... i could give it to her on the anniversary of her birth too if i wanted. But if i gave it to her 'because' it was the anniversary of her birth, then i think i'd be crossing the line. It would be like me eating the sacrificed meat 'because' it was sacrificed to a pagan God.

does that make sense?

JayJayDee said:

Sorry Jeremy, that is simply not true and I think you know it. Please give us the link where you believe Pegg said that.

Strawmen and red herrings have been putting in way too many appearances around here lately

Click to expand...

My bad. I reviewed Pegg's post and it appears she said that there were a couple of birthdays that were mentioned in the Bible. I though she said Jesus had attended them.

Shak34 said:

Not if it is for a birthday. Some JW don't even say anything on a birthday. When I was growing up it was just another day. No one even said anything.

Click to expand...

Yeah, and if i'm lucky i'll get old without ever being reminded of how old i'm getting

Shiranui117 said:

"Voodoo days"?

Click to expand...

Some people on this thread have been criticizing celebrating birthdays and Christmas, some calling them blasphemous. Therefore, I was joking when I referred to such activities and the days they fall on as voodoo days considering their positions on the matter.

Pegg said:

Jeremy, aside from the points made by kjw47, another issue is that Christians commit themselves to being his followers and living in harmony with his teachings and way of life.

Are birthdays, easter, christmas or any other types of holidays things that Jesus actively participated in or promoted?

birthdays were a common practice back then, the bible even mentions two birthday celebrations. But never do we read of any accounts of Israelites or Jesus or his disciples celebrating such events. He went to weddings and funerals and the festivals of his people the Jews...but these other celebrations were not a part of his custom.

Even if we ignore the pagan origins of such celebrations, the fact is that Jesus did not instruct his disciples to follow such customs...so we dont.

Click to expand...

Please be so kind as to present the verse(s) you think support your claim that Jesus did not attend a single birthday party.

Did Jesus instruct his disciples to breath?
Please present the verse(s) you think support your answer.

Mestemia said:

Please be so kind as to present the verse(s) you think support your claim that Jesus did not attend a single birthday party.

Did Jesus instruct his disciples to breath?
Please present the verse(s) you think support your answer.

Click to expand...

ok, i'll play

Evidence that Jesus did not celebrate his birth is seen from the fact that the gospels do not tell us his age. When the gospels begin, they say "Jesus was 'about the age of" but we dont get a definite age. If the jews back then were celebratiing birthdays, then we'd surely know how old Jesus actually was.


But secondly, all the customs and religious practices that Jesus participated in are laid out in the mosaic law. Not one of those customs are for birthday celebrations. Why? Because the Isrealites were told that they were not to participate in the religious customs of the nations around them.

EG, Exodus 34:11 “Pay attention to what I am commanding you today. Here I am driving out from before you the Am′or·ites, the Ca′naan·ites, the Hit′tites, the Per′iz·zites, the Hi′vites, and the Jeb′u·sites. 12 Be careful that you do not make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land to which you are going, or it may prove to be a snare among you. 13 But you are to pull down their altars, you are to shatter their sacred pillars, and their sacred poles you are to cut down. 14 You must not bow down to another god, for Jehovah is known for requiring exclusive devotion. Yes, he is a God who requires exclusive devotion. 15 Be careful not to make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, because when they prostitute themselves to their gods and sacrifice to their gods, someone will invite you and you will eat from his sacrifice.

The birthday was a pagan religious ceremony. Thats its history. And all such pagan religious customs were forbidden to Isreal

Pegg said:

ok, i'll play

Evidence that Jesus did not celebrate his birth is seen from the fact that the gospels do not tell us his age. When the gospels begin, they say "Jesus was 'about the age of" but we dont get a definite age. If the jews back then were celebratiing birthdays, then we'd surely know how old Jesus actually was.


But secondly, all the customs and religious practices that Jesus participated in are laid out in the mosaic law. Not one of those customs are for birthday celebrations. Why? Because the Isrealites were told that they were not to participate in the religious customs of the nations around them.

EG, Exodus 34:11 “Pay attention to what I am commanding you today. Here I am driving out from before you the Am′or·ites, the Ca′naan·ites, the Hit′tites, the Per′iz·zites, the Hi′vites, and the Jeb′u·sites. 12 Be careful that you do not make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land to which you are going, or it may prove to be a snare among you. 13 But you are to pull down their altars, you are to shatter their sacred pillars, and their sacred poles you are to cut down. 14 You must not bow down to another god, for Jehovah is known for requiring exclusive devotion. Yes, he is a God who requires exclusive devotion. 15 Be careful not to make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, because when they prostitute themselves to their gods and sacrifice to their gods, someone will invite you and you will eat from his sacrifice.

The birthday was a pagan religious ceremony. Thats its history. And all such pagan religious customs were forbidden to Isreal

Click to expand...

The passage you have quoted speaks about the other gods and idolatrous practices of the inhabitants in the land where God was sending the children of Israel and He warned them not to make a covenant with them. Instead of becoming involved in their idolatry the Israelites were to tear down the altars, shatter the sacred pillars, and cut down the sacred poles. It directly addresses the worship of false gods and idols. It says nothing about birthdays and is not about birthdays at all.

I think it is bad biblical interpretation to make a doctrine based on silence in the scriptures or by misusing verses to support such teachings when the passage(s) are about an entirely different subject and it is a very dangerous way for an organization to make rules which impact the lives of its members. God gave over 600 detailed laws under the Mosaic Covenant, if birthdays were wrong and to be forbidden it seems this would have been included.

I don't see any biblical support for the teaching against birthdays, but instead believe the prohibition of the Watchtower against celebrating birthdays as one way of isolating its members from non-JW family, friends and others in general.

How does Luke chapter 2 tie in with this at all?

InChrist said:

The passage you have quoted speaks about the other gods and idolatrous practices of the inhabitants in the land where God was sending the children of Israel and He warned them not to make a covenant with them. Instead of becoming involved in their idolatry the Israelites were to tear down the altars, shatter the sacred pillars, and cut down the sacred poles. It directly addresses the worship of false gods and idols. It says nothing about birthdays and is not about birthdays at all.

I think it is bad biblical interpretation to make a doctrine based on silence in the scriptures or by misusing verses to support such teachings when the passage(s) are about an entirely different subject and it is a very dangerous way for an organization to make rules which impact the lives of its members. God gave over 600 detailed laws under the Mosaic Covenant, if birthdays were wrong and to be forbidden it seems this would have been included.

I don't see any biblical support for the teaching against birthdays, but instead believe the prohibition of the Watchtower against celebrating birthdays as one way of isolating its members from non-JW family, friends and others in general.

Click to expand...

The Imperial Bible-Dictionary comments: “The later Hebrews looked on the celebration of birth-days as a part of idolatrous worship, a view which would be abundantly confirmed by what they saw of the common observances associated with these days.”


Jewish historian Josephus writes that death was a common theme at pagan birthday celebrations.
After Jerusalem’s destruction in 70*C.E., the 97,000 jews who survived were taken prisoner to Rome by general Titus...but he stopped off along the way to celebrate his brother and fathers birthday...
Josephus writes: “While Titus remained at Caesarea, he celebrated his brother Domitian’s birthday with great splendor, putting over 2,500 prisoners to death in games with beasts and flames. After this he moved to Berytus [Beirut], a Roman colony in Phoenicia, where he celebrated his father’s birthday by killing many more captives at elaborate exhibitions.”—The Jewish War, VII, 37, translated by Paul L.*Maier in Josephus: The Essential Writings.

“The various customs with which people today celebrate their birthdays have a long history. Their origins lie in the realm of magic and religion. The customs of offering congratulations, presenting gifts and celebrating—complete with lighted candles—in ancient times were meant to protect the birthday celebrant from the demons and to ensure his security for the coming year. .*.*. Down to the fourth century Christianity rejected the birthday celebration as a pagan custom.”—Schwäbische Zeitung (magazine supplement Zeit und Welt), April 3/4,*1981, p. 4.

'The Greeks believed that everyone had a protective spirit or daemon who attended his birth and watched over him in life. This spirit had a mystic relation with the god on whose birthday the individual was born. The Romans also subscribed to this idea. .*.*. This notion was carried down in human belief and is reflected in the guardian angel, the fairy godmother and the patron saint. .*.*. The custom of lighted candles on the cakes started with the Greeks. .*.*. Honey cakes round as the moon and lit with tapers were placed on the temple altars of [Artemis]. .*.*. Birthday candles, in folk belief, are endowed with special magic for granting wishes. .*.*. Lighted tapers and sacrificial fires have had a special mystic significance ever since man first set up altars to his gods. The birthday candles are thus an honor and tribute to the birthday child and bring good fortune. .*.*. Birthday greetings and wishes for happiness are an intrinsic part of this holiday. .*.*. Originally the idea was rooted in magic. .*.*. Birthday greetings have power for good or ill because one is closer to the spirit world on this day.”—The Lore of Birthdays (New York, 1952), Ralph and Adelin Linton, pp.*8,*18-20.



do these pagan practices not sound just a little 'off' to you? Do you imagine that this particular celebration would have been acceptable to God?
Would such a custom be acceptable to you??

Sees said:

How does Luke chapter 2 tie in with this at all?

Click to expand...

I'm not sure what kind of answer you are looking for, but it is recorded in Luke 2 that a multitude of angels made quite an event of praising God and announcing the birth of Jesus to the shepherds.

Pegg said:

The Imperial Bible-Dictionary comments: “The later Hebrews looked on the celebration of birth-days as a part of idolatrous worship, a view which would be abundantly confirmed by what they saw of the common observances associated with these days.”


Jewish historian Josephus writes that death was a common theme at pagan birthday celebrations.
After Jerusalem’s destruction in 70*C.E., the 97,000 jews who survived were taken prisoner to Rome by general Titus...but he stopped off along the way to celebrate his brother and fathers birthday...
Josephus writes: “While Titus remained at Caesarea, he celebrated his brother Domitian’s birthday with great splendor, putting over 2,500 prisoners to death in games with beasts and flames. After this he moved to Berytus [Beirut], a Roman colony in Phoenicia, where he celebrated his father’s birthday by killing many more captives at elaborate exhibitions.”—The Jewish War, VII, 37, translated by Paul L.*Maier in Josephus: The Essential Writings.

“The various customs with which people today celebrate their birthdays have a long history. Their origins lie in the realm of magic and religion. The customs of offering congratulations, presenting gifts and celebrating—complete with lighted candles—in ancient times were meant to protect the birthday celebrant from the demons and to ensure his security for the coming year. .*.*. Down to the fourth century Christianity rejected the birthday celebration as a pagan custom.”—Schwäbische Zeitung (magazine supplement Zeit und Welt), April 3/4,*1981, p. 4.

'The Greeks believed that everyone had a protective spirit or daemon who attended his birth and watched over him in life. This spirit had a mystic relation with the god on whose birthday the individual was born. The Romans also subscribed to this idea. .*.*. This notion was carried down in human belief and is reflected in the guardian angel, the fairy godmother and the patron saint. .*.*. The custom of lighted candles on the cakes started with the Greeks. .*.*. Honey cakes round as the moon and lit with tapers were placed on the temple altars of [Artemis]. .*.*. Birthday candles, in folk belief, are endowed with special magic for granting wishes. .*.*. Lighted tapers and sacrificial fires have had a special mystic significance ever since man first set up altars to his gods. The birthday candles are thus an honor and tribute to the birthday child and bring good fortune. .*.*. Birthday greetings and wishes for happiness are an intrinsic part of this holiday. .*.*. Originally the idea was rooted in magic. .*.*. Birthday greetings have power for good or ill because one is closer to the spirit world on this day.”—The Lore of Birthdays (New York, 1952), Ralph and Adelin Linton, pp.*8,*18-20.



do these pagan practices not sound just a little 'off' to you? Do you imagine that this particular celebration would have been acceptable to God?
Would such a custom be acceptable to you??

Click to expand...

All sin, idolatry, superstition, occultism etc. sounds more than a little bit off to me. But the fact is that Christians are freed from these evil things by the resurrection power of Christ and we do not live in superstitious fear and bondage. Believers in Christ who rejoice in the life God gives are not murdering people at birthday parties or contacting the demonic spirit world. Life is valuable and a gift of God and I believe it is appropriate to acknowledge this with thankfulness to God and by rejoicing and showing the appreciation for each precious life of those His has in our lives.

InChrist said:

All sin, idolatry, superstition, occultism etc. sounds more than a little bit off to me. But the fact is that Christians are freed from these evil things by the resurrection power of Christ and we do not live in superstitious fear and bondage. Believers in Christ who rejoice in the life God gives are not murdering people at birthday parties or contacting the demonic spirit world. Life is valuable and a gift of God and I believe it is appropriate to acknowledge this with thankfulness to God and by rejoicing and showing the appreciation for each precious life of those His has in our lives.

Click to expand...

but you didnt answer the question... knowing what the origin of this particular celebration is, knowing it is rooted in occultish practices, knowing it was a pagan religious custom of the nations God commanded the Isrealites to stay away from and to reject all their religious customs and ideas....

how do you think God would feel about it???

Sees said:

How does Luke chapter 2 tie in with this at all?

Click to expand...

Well, you effectively shamed the lot of us, lol. No sarcasm.

Pegg said:

but you didnt answer the question... knowing what the origin of this particular celebration is, knowing it is rooted in occultish practices, knowing it was a pagan religious custom of the nations God commanded the Isrealites to stay away from and to reject all their religious customs and ideas....

how do you think God would feel about it???

Click to expand...

But knowing that we take the good and godly parts of it, while casting aside the evil parts. We are effectively redeeming something that had been corrupted and lost. And redeeming something corrupted, transforming it in Christ (as the whole world and as our whole person is transformed in Him) is surely in accordance with God's will to redeem all things.

Shiranui117 said:

Well, you effectively shamed the lot of us, lol. No sarcasm.

Click to expand...

Thanks

It does show that Jesus and his family were mindful of his birthdate and age to me though. Any coming of age such and such would be pretty silly otherwise and it's been Jewish traditions for a long-time. Circumcision and sacrificing doves or what not are also tied into relevant birth-rites.

The sad thing is how celebrating the life of a loved one is seen as pagan 'evil'. Further promoting the idea that pagan traditions are life-affirming and Christianity is...other. Additionally a petty God-concept who worries over you celebrating the life of a friend or family member - as though there is jealousy or demons will whisper in your ear while gifting or singing Happy Birthday. I'm sure of it that this rubbish is detracting lurkers who might want to join the flock. Intensifying such trivial things is probably a part of JW's having the lowest retention rate of religious groups in the U.S.A.

Edit: didn't realize this thread was in Same Faith Debates :sorry1:

Shiranui117 said:

But knowing that we take the good and godly parts of it, while casting aside the evil parts. We are effectively redeeming something that had been corrupted and lost. And redeeming something corrupted, transforming it in Christ (as the whole world and as our whole person is transformed in Him) is surely in accordance with God's will to redeem all things.

Click to expand...

I think it would be nice if this was Gods solution, but i think its is mans false reasoning at play.

Consider, God condemned false religions because they are based on lies and are the inspiration of 'the father of the lie' Satan the devil.
Do you really believe that anything originating with him or inspired by him or based on his lies would be acceptable to God?

Can God really approve of us getting involved with anything which comes from that rotten creature?