But, at the same time, you do not seem willing to stop :banghead3 Why the addiction?
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haalmah harah: "a young woman is pregnant"
- Thread starter gnostic
- Start date
dantech
Well-Known Member
It's hard to stop when people give you the same rebuttals over and over again without having gotten your point through their thick skulls.
I got fed up and some point, but it was indeed frustrating. Gnostic will surely get there, he just has a bigger tolerance than we do.
I would think it is would be a powerful reason to stop, and someone once noted ...
"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting it to come out different"
Still, I agree that the Dunning-Kruger effect is infuriating.
dantech
Well-Known Member
I never knew that term. Thank you.
sincerly
Well-Known Member
Hi Jay, The Lord GOD of Creation had this to say concerning that "effect".
Isa,65:1- 5 , "I am sought of them that asked not for me; I am found of them that sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation that was not called by my name. I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walketh in a way that was not good, after their own thoughts; A people that provoketh me to anger continually to my face; that sacrificeth in gardens, and burneth incense upon altars of brick; Which remain among the graves, and lodge in the monuments, which eat swine's flesh, and broth of abominable things is in their vessels; Which say, Stand by thyself, come not near to me; for I am holier than thou. These are a smoke in my nose, a fire that burneth all the day."
james2ko
Well-Known Member
The plural nature of the sign, as well as Mat 1:23 and other evidence, transforms Isa 7:14 into the prophetic perfect tense. This means terms, like harah, existing in the Hebrew text alongside perfect verbs (usually denoting completed, past action), can be rendered as imperfects (incomplete or future action). In other words, the use of this tense allows words like harah to be translated as if it were hariyt. The plurality of the sign along with the prophetic perfect suggests the virgin in Ahaz's time could have presently been pregnant and would "give birth" (future), while the second virgin will become pregnant (shall conceive) in the future. Thus making the translation "shall conceive" grammatically plausible.
Isaiah and Paul say that was actually reserved for the some of the Jews
Isa 29:10-11 For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered. 11 And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed:
Rom 11:7-8 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded 8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
Rom 11:7-8 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded 8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.
Sure..I'll be the petty, ignorant one, if it makes you feel better :help:
Ok so then get back to your Christians roots. Talk about being petty
james2ko
Well-Known Member
There's actually a term for those who think of others that suffer from the Dunning-Kruger effect:
Superiority complex - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
sincerly
Well-Known Member
Then you can prove conclusive evidences that Jesus told his disciples what to write? I know there are no evidences, but if you have evidences, then by all mean produce your evidences.
Sorry, but what part of what you've quoted from my post where I was talking to any Jew?
It is only the last paragraphs in which I ask Hebrew-speaking & for the correct transliteration to the Hebrew word - הָרִ֖ית.
Like you I don't know how to read, write, speak or translate Hebrew language, so the best thing to do is ask for the correct transliteration or translation.
I'm just not sure häriyt is the right transliteration for הָרִ֖ית, so I'm asking for help, to find the correct transliteration, if it is needed. If it is right then, I can continue to use häriyt.
Is there anything wrong about asking for help to find the correct transliterated word (if needed)? That was all I was asking; that's not for someone to lie. And quite offended that you think I would resort to this.
I would not ask any Jew, Christian, Muslim, Hindu, atheist, etc, to lie. I expect people to be honest, including from you.*
Do you seriously think I would any Jew to lie for me? It's offensive!
Hi Gnostic, I agree that one expects one to be honest. That is why I asked my Question. The Same GOD that Created all things is the same GOD they claim to hold as their GOD, yet you claim doesn't exist. HE is the Same GOD Isaiah is trying to get back-sliding Ahaz to BELIEVE and return to as GOD.
gnostic
The Lost One
sincerly said:
What does any of what you have written here, have to with attempting to understand the Hebrew language in the given verses, particularly הָרָה "harah" (like in Genesis 16:11 or Isaiah 7:14) or הָרִ֖ית "häriyt" (in Judges 13:3).
Both words come from the base word harah - "pregnant", but context-wise and the correct grammar and tenses would be feminine and imperfect tense (future & present tenses).
"to conceive" => häriyt => הָרִ֖ית => future-imperfect tense, feminine verb (source: Judges 13:3)
alternative translations for häriyt: "will conceive", "shall conceive", "shalt conceive" (KJV)
"is pregnant" => harah => הָרָה => present-imperfect tense, feminine adjective (sources: Genesis 16:11, Exodus 21:22, Isaiah 7:14, Jeremiah 31:8)alternative translations for harah: "is with child", "has conceived", (or "pregnant woman" or "woman with child" (ishah harah))
Had KJV wanted the verse translation to be - "the virgin shalt conceive", in Isaiah 7:!4 - then transliteration would have been something like - "ha'betulah häriyt" or "betulah häriyt". (I'm not sure which of the transliteration betulah is the correct one).
sincerly
Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by sincerly
The Same GOD that Created all things is the same GOD they(Jewish persons) claim to hold as their GOD, yet you claim doesn't exist. HE is the Same GOD Isaiah is trying to get back-sliding Ahaz to BELIEVE and return to as GOD.
It has to do with context and not just a word-- and Harah refers to "to conceive". NOT "Pregnant."
When the word is used it is accompanied by the person who does cause the conception as far as I can determine--- just as with the "prophetess" and Isaiah.
Where is the one who caused the "shall concieve" listed in that "sign" (7:14)? There is none---because that almah(maid, damsel) is a reminder to Ahaz of GOD's strength to control the out-come of all things to the end of time.(The seed of woman.)--Still future at that time.
The Prophetess' "conceived" son was the fulfilling of the events concerning Judah's future until the Babylonian Captivity. GOD is still in charge. And "Still with us".
The Same GOD that Created all things is the same GOD they(Jewish persons) claim to hold as their GOD, yet you claim doesn't exist. HE is the Same GOD Isaiah is trying to get back-sliding Ahaz to BELIEVE and return to as GOD.
It has to do with context and not just a word-- and Harah refers to "to conceive". NOT "Pregnant."
When the word is used it is accompanied by the person who does cause the conception as far as I can determine--- just as with the "prophetess" and Isaiah.
Where is the one who caused the "shall concieve" listed in that "sign" (7:14)? There is none---because that almah(maid, damsel) is a reminder to Ahaz of GOD's strength to control the out-come of all things to the end of time.(The seed of woman.)--Still future at that time.
The Prophetess' "conceived" son was the fulfilling of the events concerning Judah's future until the Babylonian Captivity. GOD is still in charge. And "Still with us".
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
So many words in the Bible make so much difference. Is Jesus God? A few words make it seem so. Is he the promised Messiah? There's a few words that make it seem he's not. Too many things are still up in the air to be sure about anything. Your context is exactly opposite the Jews that have responded, not just Gnostic. Your context of the Bible isn't that old, the modern Protestant interpretations are still evolving. You're facing new questions that prior to this no one dared ask. A few centuries ago, they would have been killed. Christian religious leaders don't have that kind of power any more. Everything you claim is going to be thoroughly questioned, only because your type of Christianity claims to be the "only" truth. But, that "only" truth does keep changing with the times. You don't believe like Luther, probably not like Calvin either.
The Protestants have all sorts of various ways of interpreting the Bible. Which one do you follow? Are you sure it's the only right one? A word here, a word there and everything changes. If you're not right about these words on this thread, the whole gospel story of Jesus' birth goes down the drain. I've said it before and will say it again, at least you and a few others have the guts to post something. Where are all the other Christians? This is a big deal. If Matthew made this stuff up then all of Christianity is a sham, (that is fundy Christianity). And, I'd love to see it go. I'd much prefer that all religions are right or at least partly right. I think it would be great if we all had to work together to build a better more spiritual world. Like all the people and all the religions had a piece of the puzzle and we all needed to share it to make things work. Of course fundy Christians say "yes, there is a religion like that coming, the one started by the anti-christ." God, I hope they're wrong. But then again, it's just a few words and the interpretation of those words.
gnostic
The Lost One
sincerly said:
Are you blind?
I have been talking of context from the OP, and provided context to each passage (from Isaiah, Jeremiah, Genesis, Exodus, and even that of the book of Amos) that used the word harah! I have even provided context to Judges 13:3 about the birth of Samson.
The context I used relate to not only that of a word, but the context of the whole verse.
Clearly, you have been understanding what I have written, otherwise you wouldn't be making such foolish claim.
You are so fixated on the virgin and Jesus that you ignored 3 other verses in Isaiah 7. I kept pointing to you that you have read verse 14 with 15, 16 and 17, because these 4 verses give you the complete sign.
How many times did I have to verses 7:15-17 to you, sincerly?
The majority of the times that I have quoted them, you have ignored these quotes. So please spare me your hypocrisy of telling me that I'm only looking at the context of one word.
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dantech
Well-Known Member
This thread made me figure out there are two people on these forums that I really don't like debating with.
You say 2+2=4, they respond that gravity doesn't affect bananas... taking things way out of subject and then making claims that go against every law we know.
sincerly
Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by sincerly It has to do with context and not just a word...
Hi CG D, I see you are still holding fast to "words" and not the Context of the Scriptures which is the content of the whole compliation of the contents.
You haven't decided about GOD--- much less who HE is---and yet you say: "God, I hope they are wrong".
I assure you that my context of the Scriptures starts with Gen.1:1 and ends at Rev.22:21. That makes it as old as any writings or Orals that were recorded.Hi CG D, I see you are still holding fast to "words" and not the Context of the Scriptures which is the content of the whole compliation of the contents.
You haven't decided about GOD--- much less who HE is---and yet you say: "God, I hope they are wrong".
Modern day revisionist who/which fail in the continuation of the previous messages are False.
The Scriptures are "GOD'S type" and should reflect only the messages HE Presented. Any massages which deviate/are contrary to the "Law and the Prophets" is False. GOD'S word/Scriptures are Truth and the only truth one can trust to lead them back to HIM. NO! GOD'S Truth remains the same---man's opinions change. My Beliefs and hope is in that "unchanging word/scriptures" which is called the "Everlasting Gospel" and was delivered to those "fathers" from Adam to those who met at the foot of Sinai to Hear GOD speak directly to them.
CG D, Those early reformers were protesting aganist a Power that claimed to be in the place of GOD calling themselves "Christians." Those early reformers were protesting that those doing the persecuting and calling those "who believed what the Scriptures (OT) said"--- heretics. Yet ,it was persecutors who were the heretics.( A fulfillment of 2Thess.2:3-4)
A "denomination" is man-made designation. Believers are "followers of the way" later "called Christians". And the Scriptures Jesus and Paul stated to "search" were the very same that Jesus read from in the synagogue.
Just as there were those who professed with their mouth in Jesus day of the Jews---there are those who call themselves Christians who have a form of godliness, but deny the power thereof/behind it.
Waiting for all peoples to rally around one "True Belief" is like GOD said to Ahaz---"It will not come the pass".
sincerly
Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by sincerly
It has to do with context and not just a word-- and Harah refers to "to conceive". NOT "Pregnant."
No! I see very well and understand as well.
Did you notice in 2Kings that Ahaz's actions were contrary and rebellious to GOD?
Didn't those sited verses of yours also indicate the male who caused the conception? Except for Isa.7:14?
The GOD of the Scriptures we are discussing knows the future and those came to pass as stated they would. Isaiah 8:18 confirmed who was the sign for those kings and that time.
It has to do with context and not just a word-- and Harah refers to "to conceive". NOT "Pregnant."
No! I see very well and understand as well.
Did you notice in 2Kings that Ahaz's actions were contrary and rebellious to GOD?
Didn't those sited verses of yours also indicate the male who caused the conception? Except for Isa.7:14?
The GOD of the Scriptures we are discussing knows the future and those came to pass as stated they would. Isaiah 8:18 confirmed who was the sign for those kings and that time.
sincerly
Well-Known Member
We aren't discussing math nor gravity.
james2ko
Well-Known Member
I experience this often here and elsewhere, especially with my fellow brothers and sisters (the Jews). I find it is a common fallacy frequently implemented when truth gets a little too close to home:
"Appeal to ridicule is often found in the form of comparing a nuanced circumstance or argument to a laughably commonplace occurrence or to some other irrelevancy on the basis of comedic timing, wordplay, or making an opponent and their argument the object of a joke"
Appeal to ridicule - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I still love em', though. :group:
dantech
Well-Known Member
This is not at all the case... we've debated for 72 pages, and its pretty much everyone debating with the same two people whose rebuttals do not actually answer or take into consideration what is being said to them. I was not looking to make fun, I was giving an example as to how I feel the answers make no sense.