For the Christians (Abrahamic only)

roger1440 · Oct 6, 2013

FranklinMichaelV.3 said:
But the writer of Matthew if the time line is correct would have been writing to an Audience with access to Pauls writings, wouldn't he?

The Canonical Gospels were written after Pauls letters. The authors of these Gospels may or may not have had access to Pauls letters. No one knows for certain. What I do know is that there is nothing Pauline in these Gospels. I dont think they are in agreement. The Gospel message is to obey the Torah, Paul on the other hand tells the Jews to throw it out the window.

Walkntune · Oct 6, 2013

roger1440 said:
The Canonical Gospels were written after Pauls letters. The authors of these Gospels may or may not have had access to Pauls letters. No one knows for certain. What I do know is that there is nothing Pauline in these Gospels. I dont think they are in agreement. The Gospel message is to obey the Torah, Paul on the other hand tells the Jews to throw it out the window.

What was the ministry of Christ? He healed the sick, gave provisions and comfort,and even laid down his life and provewd there is no greater love. This is what the fulfillment of the law was.This is the Gospel message. He was a friend of the sinner and no account of him following any of the Jewish customs in which waqs the very reason they crucified him.
This is Pauls teachings and also lines up with the ministry of Christ who submitted himself to the Governing authorities even to the point of not resisting death.
13 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is Gods minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is Gods minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. 5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience sake. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are Gods ministers attending continually to this very thing. 7 Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor.
Love Your Neighbor

8 Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness,[a] You shall not covet,[b] and if there is any other commandment, are all summed up in this saying, namely, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.[c] 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.
Put on Christ

11 And do this, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep; for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed. 12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand. Therefore let us cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armor of light. 13 Let us walk properly, as in the day, not in revelry and drunkenness, not in lewdness and lust, not in strife and envy. 14 But put on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make no provision for the flesh, to fulfill its lusts.

roger1440 · Oct 6, 2013

The original question was, should Christians obey the Law. Its not an easy question to answer. First we have to ask, what a Christian is. There is thousands upon thousands of flavors of Christianity. Christianity was even more diverse in the first few centuries of the Common Era.

Walkntune · Oct 6, 2013

roger1440 said:
The original question was, should Christians obey the Law. It’s not an easy question to answer. First we have to ask, what a Christian is. There is thousands upon thousands of flavors of Christianity. Christianity was even more diverse in the first few centuries of the Common Era.

My personal belief is I don't believe God wants to be served by the persuasion of any commandments or the fear of consequence but solely by the conviction of His love and goodness.

InChrist · Oct 6, 2013

Originally Posted by Shermana;That doesn't really answer my question.

[/quote]

I'm sorry I didn't answer your question adequately. I'm sure the fault is mine in not articulating what I'm trying to say clearly. I see the teaching of the scriptures say that Jesus Christ perfectly and completely met the requirements of the law. He is the only one who has ever done so. He stated that He is the way, the truth, and the life and the only way to the Father. When a person places their faith in Christ to save them...His perfect, righteous, law fulfilling life is applied to the believer. From then on when God the Father sees the believer He sees the righteousness of Christ ( For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. Col.3:3)

Are you saying that Christians who claim to be saved simply won't have any desire to do what is against the Law? I don't think I've ever met a sin-free Christian, in fact almost every Christian I've met is cool with fornication for example. So what's that mean? They aren't really saved? Only those who obey God's laws are saved?.

I am saying that those who have have trusted Jesus, died to self and risen with Christ, love Him, and walk with Him daily will desire to please Him and refrain from sin. Yet, I have never met a sin-free Christian either because we are still living in a body of flesh with carnal desires. I think the scriptures show that sanctification is a process by which God transforms a believer's mind and life eliminating sin step by step after salvation by the conviction and power of the Holy Spirit. The process looks and occurs differently in each one's life because each person is unique. Some Christians may be slow learners, some may be biblically illiterate,some may ignore the conviction of the Holy Spirit for quite awhile or some who claim to be Christians may have never truly submitted to Christ so they are not Christians.

Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts. And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace. Romans 6:12-14

For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. Romans 8:2

If so, we're almost on the same boat.[/QUOTE

I think we are on the same boat as far as sin, but not salvation. I believe only Jesus saves and I think you believe the Law saves. You can correct me if I'm wrong about that.

And by the way, Jesus's female disciples obeyed the Sabbath after he was crucified, so there's good reason to believe he did in fact teach to do this even if it didn't make it in the final cut of the Gospels. There's all kinds of things that Jesus said and did that didn't make it into the Gospels, says John 21.

[/quote]

There is no reason that Jesus' disciples would not keep the Sabbath even after He was crucified. They were Jewish. There is no reason that Jews who trust in Christ may not continue to keep the Sabbath as their tradition. I believe the literal Sabbath was given to Israel for specified time and as a shadow of the ultimate rest in Christ...For indeed the gospel was preached to us as well as to them; but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. For we who have believed do enter that rest...Hebrews 4:2-3

I have entered into that rest every day which the Sabbath foreshadowed , not by the letter of the law as in works, but in Christ.

For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His. Hebrews 4:10

roger1440 · Oct 6, 2013

Walkntune said:
My personal belief is I don't believe God wants to be served by the persuasion of any commandments or the fear of consequence but solely by the conviction of His love and goodness.

It’s not what we do outwardly that brings us closer to God. It’s what we do inwardly that brings us closer to God, but our inward devotion to God is manifested through outward actions. The actions in themselves are useless without the devotion to God. They will only serve as a means to glorify ourselves rather than to glorify God. The Jesus of Mathew’s gospel said this. All he did was to repeat what the ancient Jewish prophets said centuries earlier.

Also, the very first commandment in the Bible is to seek God.

Shermana · Oct 6, 2013

roger1440 said:
The original question was, should Christians obey the Law. Its not an easy question to answer. First we have to ask, what a Christian is. There is thousands upon thousands of flavors of Christianity. Christianity was even more diverse in the first few centuries of the Common Era.

Perhaps we should go by what the Book of Acts says the original people called Christians were, which were Nazarene Jews under Peter's Authority in Antioch, who were most likely all Torah obedient, and uninfluenced by Paul.

Now at what point did anyone have the authority to dub themselves "Christian" apart from this group?

Walkntune · Oct 7, 2013

roger1440 said:
Its not what we do outwardly that brings us closer to God. Its what we do inwardly that brings us closer to God, but our inward devotion to God is manifested through outward actions. The actions in themselves are useless without the devotion to God. They will only serve as a means to glorify ourselves rather than to glorify God. The Jesus of Mathews gospel said this. All he did was to repeat what the ancient Jewish prophets said centuries earlier.

Also, the very first commandment in the Bible is to seek God.

He lives in me now. No more reason to seek and I cant get any closer.

dantech · Oct 7, 2013

How can you guys say that Jesus atones when this is clearly written:

"And this shall be a statute for ever unto you: that in the seventh month, on the tenth day of the month, ye shall afflict your souls, and do no work at all, whether it be one of your own country, or a stranger that sojourns among you... It shall be a sabbath of rest unto you, and ye shall afflict your souls, by a statute forever." (Lev 16,29.31)

Notice, "Forever"! It doesn't say "Until my son..." or "Until Heaven and Earth pass" or anything like that,

"Also on the tenth day of this seventh month there shall be a day of atonement: it shall be a holy convocation unto you; and ye shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire unto YHWH... For whatsoever soul it be that shall not be afflicted in that same day, he shall be cut off from among his people... It shall be unto you a sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: in the ninth day of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath." (Lev 23,27.29.32)

Whatever the soul, it shall be a day of atonement...

"And ye shall have on the tenth day of this seventh month an holy convocation; and ye shall afflict your souls: ye shall not do any work therein:" (Nu 29,7)

Last I checked, Christians don't refrain from work on the tenth day of the seventh month.

These are just a few examples among the plenty that don't make much sens to me. I just don't see the logic...

You believe these words that are written, yet you believe God didn't foresee when He said "Forever"

roger1440 · Oct 7, 2013

Shermana said:
Perhaps we should go by what the Book of Acts says the original people called Christians were, which were Nazarene Jews under Peter's Authority in Antioch, who were most likely all Torah obedient, and uninfluenced by Paul.

Now at what point did anyone have the authority to dub themselves "Christian" apart from this group?

I know Im not going to gain any points with this one. I dont think the Book of Acts is 100% literally accurate. To start with, the coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost in chapter two may be a metaphor. I suspect it is a retelling of the fall of the tower of Babel in the reverse. In the Babel story God destroys the tower because the builders attempt to reach God by a physical means. In the end all the people speak different languages and dont understand one another. In the Pentecost story the people come to God by spiritual means and understand one another. Its very creative how the author of Acts sneaks that in there. You got to give the guy credit, LOL. Tradition holds the Luke a companion of Paul wrote the book of Acts. I think its obvious Luke would want his dear old friend Paul to look like the good guy in the story. Lets face it; its the winners who write history. We seldom here anything about the losers.

Christianity started as a Jewish sect. In the beginning there were ONLY Jewish Christians. The early Church had destroyed most of what we know about them. They were labeled as heretics. Scholars today only have bites and pieces of the puzzle to work with to come up with the original picture.

You might find this interesting:
Ebionites, or Ebionaioi (Greek: Ἐβιωναῖοι; derived from Hebrew אביונים ebyonim, ebionim, meaning "the poor" or "poor ones"), is a patristic term referring to a Jewish Christian movement that existed during the early centuries of the Christian Era.[1] They regarded Jesus of Nazareth as the Messiah while rejecting his divinity[2] and insisted on the necessity of following Jewish law and rites.[3]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebionites#Views_and_practices

captainbryce · Oct 7, 2013

CMike said:
You need to pick your god.

Either you believe the G-D from the Torah who said do not add nor subtract from jewish law or you pick jesus who added and subtracted at will.

A) False Dichotomy.
B) "New covenant" (Jeremiah 31:31-34)

CMike said:
They are mutually exclusive.

I agree. But you made a false dichotomy, therefore this isn't truly an issue.

captainbryce · Oct 7, 2013

CMike said:
No. He died because he was caught by the romans and executed.

Thank you for your opinion. It's always refreshing to get a unique Jewish perspective about the merits of Jesus Christ.

captainbryce · Oct 7, 2013

I think a point that has gone over everyone's head here (something I have yet to see anyone actually address) is the fact Gentiles (which encompasses the vast majority of Christians living today) were never part of the old covenant, and therefore never bound my the laws of Abraham or Moses. This largely renders OT laws moot when it comes to followers of Christ.

Shermana · Oct 7, 2013

captainbryce said:
I think a point that has gone over everyone's head here (something I have yet to see anyone actually address) is the fact Gentiles (which encompasses the vast majority of Christians living today) were never part of the old covenant, and therefore never bound my the laws of Abraham or Moses. This largely renders OT laws moot when it comes to followers of Christ.

1. James and the Jerusalem Church clearly obeyed the Law, so that means at the VERY LEAST, regardless of the controversy about whether the Council of Jerusalem (Which clashes with Galatians 2) and Acts 21:25 were interpolations as early 20th (and late 19th) century scholars believed, that the Law was still in complete binding force for JEWISH Christians. The implications of this are good fuel for debate on whether there was in fact an interpolation by the writers of Acts. One way or another however, James and the Jerusalem Church, the ORIGINAL Church, believed in full obedience to the Law of Moses, regarding Jewish Christians. We also see in 1 John that "Sin is lawlessness" and that "lawlessness" doesn't magically change definition by that time. "Love of GOd is obedience to the commandments".

It cannot just be brushed off as "irrelevant". Hand waving this fact does not help your position.

2. What do you think Jesus meant by "I have only come for the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel"? What part about "Only" do you think changed after his ascent?

CMike · Oct 7, 2013

captainbryce said:
A) False Dichotomy.
B) "New covenant" (Jeremiah 31:31-34)

I agree. But you made a false dichotomy, therefore this isn't truly an issue.

Not at all.

G-D said in Dvarim 13 not to add nor subtract from the Torah.

Therefore by "changing" the Torah and deciding what laws are important or not you are violating Dvarim chapter 13 verse 1.

It's very simple.

InChrist · Oct 7, 2013

dantech said:
How can you guys say that Jesus atones when this is clearly written:

Notice, "Forever"! It doesn't say "Until my son..." or "Until Heaven and Earth pass" or anything like that,

Whatever the soul, it shall be a day of atonement...

Last I checked, Christians don't refrain from work on the tenth day of the seventh month.

These are just a few examples among the plenty that don't make much sens to me. I just don't see the logic...

You believe these words that are written, yet you believe God didn't foresee when He said "Forever"

I think your thoughts/points are very appropriate and important. I have Jewish friends who have trusted in Jesus Christ as Savior and Messiah and I have seen them struggle with these same issues. I have Christian non-Jewish friends who have decided to keep the Law (some of it anyway) and OT feasts. As a believer in Christ and the entire Bible I too have spent much time in prayer and study over passages like the one you cited, seeking the LORD'S guidance.

I think the important first question is...who was God speaking to or giving the commands to concerning keeping the Sabbath(s)? And why?

And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, “Speak also to the children of Israel, saying: ‘Surely My Sabbaths you shall keep, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the Lord who sanctifies you. You shall keep the Sabbath, therefore, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people. Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever; for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed.’” And when He had made an end of speaking with him on Mount Sinai, He gave Moses two tablets of the Testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God. Exodus 31:12-18

So first the scriptures indicate that keeping the Sabbaths were for Israel because this was a sign of the covenant relationship between Israel and God, made after He delivered them from Egypt.

"The word translated "for ever" is the Hebrew olam. This word is used to indicate indefinite continuance into the very distant future. It is the idea of a period of unspecified time, olam means from what one can see to a vanishing point on the horizon.
The word can be used to express eternality, as in reference to God whom we know has and always existed (Gen. 21:33); of whom is the only being it is used for -- forever and ever or from everlasting to everlasting (Ps 90:2), Everlasting is your name [El Olam] (Isa.63:16). But there are exceptions, it does not always refer to eternality, it carries a long duration of time when describing things of creation. Context must determine how the word is used in a given passage.
The Sabbath, like the other laws were to last throughout their generations to a certain point:"
excerpt:The Sabbatarian

I believe the OT scriptures also indicate that God intended to make a new covenant in the future:

“Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.Jeremiah 31:31-33

I will also cause all her mirth to cease, Her feast days, Her New Moons, Her Sabbaths—All her appointed feasts. Hosea 2:11

In that day I will make a covenant for them with the beasts of the field, with the birds of the air,and with the creeping things of the ground. Bow and sword of battle I will shatter from the earth,to make them lie down safely. Hosea 2:18

CMike · Oct 7, 2013

captainbryce said:
Thank you for your opinion. It's always refreshing to get a unique Jewish perspective about the merits of Jesus Christ.

You bet.

dantech · Oct 8, 2013

InChrist said:
I think your thoughts/points are very appropriate and important. I have Jewish friends who have trusted in Jesus Christ as Savior and Messiah and I have seen them struggle with these same issues. I have Christian non-Jewish friends who have decided to keep the Law (some of it anyway) and OT feasts. As a believer in Christ and the entire Bible I too have spent much time in prayer and study over passages like the one you cited, seeking the LORD'S guidance.

I think the important first question is...who was God speaking to or giving the commands to concerning keeping the Sabbath(s)? And why?

And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, Speak also to the children of Israel, saying: Surely My Sabbaths you shall keep, for it is a sign between Me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I am the Lord who sanctifies you. You shall keep the Sabbath, therefore, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does any work on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people. Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever; for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed. And when He had made an end of speaking with him on Mount Sinai, He gave Moses two tablets of the Testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God. Exodus 31:12-18

So first the scriptures indicate that keeping the Sabbaths were for Israel because this was a sign of the covenant relationship between Israel and God, made after He delivered them from Egypt.

"The word translated "for ever" is the Hebrew olam. This word is used to indicate indefinite continuance into the very distant future. It is the idea of a period of unspecified time, olam means from what one can see to a vanishing point on the horizon.
The word can be used to express eternality, as in reference to God whom we know has and always existed (Gen. 21:33); of whom is the only being it is used for -- forever and ever or from everlasting to everlasting (Ps 90:2), Everlasting is your name [El Olam] (Isa.63:16). But there are exceptions, it does not always refer to eternality, it carries a long duration of time when describing things of creation. Context must determine how the word is used in a given passage.
The Sabbath, like the other laws were to last throughout their generations to a certain point:"
excerpt:The Sabbatarian

I believe the OT scriptures also indicate that God intended to make a new covenant in the future:

Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.Jeremiah 31:31-33

I will also cause all her mirth to cease, Her feast days, Her New Moons, Her SabbathsAll her appointed feasts. Hosea 2:11

In that day I will make a covenant for them with the beasts of the field, with the birds of the air,and with the creeping things of the ground. Bow and sword of battle I will shatter from the earth,to make them lie down safely. Hosea 2:18

I can't understand if you agree with me or disagree

roger1440 · Oct 8, 2013

captainbryce said:
I think a point that has gone over everyone's head here (something I have yet to see anyone actually address) is the fact Gentiles (which encompasses the vast majority of Christians living today) were never part of the old covenant, and therefore never bound my the laws of Abraham or Moses. This largely renders OT laws moot when it comes to followers of Christ.

Yeah, what he just said. What do apply to gentiles are the seven laws of Noah.

In Judaism, the Seven Laws of Noah (Hebrew: שבעמצוותבנינח‎ Sheva mitzvot B'nei Noach), or the Noahide Laws, are a set of moral imperatives that, according to the Talmud, were given by God[1] as a binding set of laws for the "children of Noah" that is, all of humanity.[2][3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Laws_of_Noah

roger1440 · Oct 8, 2013

dantech said:
Notice, "Forever"! It doesn't say "Until my son..." or "Until Heaven and Earth pass" or anything like that,

Forever and until Heaven and Earth pass means the same thing. If there was some new super duper New Testament written recently, it may reword as not until Hell freezes over. In very simple laymans terms it means it aint gonna happen.

For the Christians (Abrahamic only)

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