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ha‘almah harah: "a young woman is pregnant"

gnostic

The Lost One
sincerly said:
The Story of mankind's and earth's origins and what happened then and the Restoration of that which was lost covers the entire Bible(OT and NT). Gen.3:15 is a part of the first rebellion and that rebellion of mankind has fluctuated between GOD'S professed peoples since Eden.
Ahaz was in rebellion with GOD while professing to serve GOD as Scripture informs one who has looked.
Since GOD knows the hearts and minds of all, one can be assured that Ahaz understood Gen.3:15---the seed of the woman---not of a man would produce a "HIS heel". Nor was Ahaz ignorant of GOD'S dealings with Abraham. Nothing is impossible with GOD. Therefore, would Ahaz believe GOD in being his protector. No, he didn't and the Son of Isaiah(by the prophetess) fulfilled the sign concerning Assyria.

Sorry, but when did God or Isaiah ever quoted Genesis 3:15?

No matter how I read Isaiah 7 or Isaiah 8, I found nothing regarding the "seed of woman" in Genesis 3:15.

Not unless you do mental gymnastic by distorting or twisting Isaiah 7:14, by equating a snake (of Genesis 3:15) into 2 kings - Pekah and Rezin.
 
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CMike

Well-Known Member
For the record, CMike's view is a center-right Orthodox view. Non-Orthodox Jews, and most Modern Orthodox Jews, do not subscribe to complete literalism as a viewpoint. And my guess is that even CMike is being a little hyperbolic in his use of "literal," since there are numerous instances in traditional Jewish practical interpretation where we go by the text as the Rabbis of the Talmud teach and interpret it, not as the plain, surface meaning of the Biblical text might seem to indicate.

Your record is incorrect.

My view is orthodox.

Levite's is reform and humanistic.

It is on the left end.
 

sincerly

Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by sincerly
The Story of mankind's and earth's origins and what happened then and the Restoration of that which was lost covers the entire Bible(OT and NT). Gen.3:15 is a part of the first rebellion and that rebellion of mankind has fluctuated between GOD'S professed peoples since Eden.
Ahaz was in rebellion with GOD while professing to serve GOD as Scripture informs one who has looked.
Since GOD knows the hearts and minds of all, one can be assured that Ahaz understood Gen.3:15---the seed of the woman---not of a man would produce a "HIS heel". Nor was Ahaz ignorant of GOD'S dealings with Abraham. Nothing is impossible with GOD. Therefore, would Ahaz believe GOD in being his protector. No, he didn't and the Son of Isaiah(by the prophetess) fulfilled the sign concerning Assyria.


Sorry, but when did God or Isaiah ever quoted Genesis 3:15?

No matter how I read Isaiah 7 or Isaiah 8, I found nothing regarding the "seed of woman" in Genesis 3:15.

Not unless you do mental gymnastic by distorting or twisting Isaiah 7:14, by equating a snake (of Genesis 3:15) into 2 kings - Pekah and Rezin.

Hi Agnostic, God didn't quote, but prophesied it----in Gen.3:15; Isaiah continued (vss.7:3,7,10)speaking for GOD in the "moreover". In the telling Ahaz that his kingdom would NOT be established unless he believed the sign give for that event was in reminding Ahaz in whom lay the power to establish---That same power which would redeem the world against the same "evil" which was threatening him.

You have called and do believe it all to be a myth; but in reality, GOD has shown HIS Power to human Beings for thousands of years.

Any distortions comes from your claims--Not the Scriptures. The Serpent used by Satan in his deception of Eve was at the time of Creation NOT 3260 years later during Isaiah's time. However, there is no doubt in my understanding of the Scriptures in general , that the same entity(Satan) who manipulated the Serpent, also, manipulated those two 'kings" in their evil plotting.

In Isa.7:14, (almah=young woman/girl/virgin) gives birth. That is the "seed of the woman". And again, shows GOD'S Power to do the impossible and without the aid of a male human being.
 

sincerly

Well-Known Member
sincerly) And the gods of the nations were NOT?? If GOD was still the GOD of the Israelites(alone as you believe) then nothing would stop them from building the temple and returning to those sacrifices which were accepted when GOD Truly lead and defended them against their enemies. However said:
That was in response to Mike's: """The worst sin a jew can committ is to worship jesus. That is known a idol worship."""

And we both know that antisemitism however dresses up is ugly and offensive.

Hi Jay, Truth is neither Jewish nor non-Jewish.
Ex.32:9 (33:5; 34:9) "And the LORD said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it [is] a stiffnecked people:" Assessment Before the 40 years and after (Deut.31:21-29), ""For I know thy rebellion, and thy stiff neck: behold, while I am yet alive with you this day, ye have been rebellious against the LORD; and how much more after my death? ""

Has it changed over the years? No! That is why the prophets were continually being sent to correct and lead back to the very teachings taught By GOD at SINAI and instructions were given to Moses to teach GOD'S people a correct relationship to Himself and one's neighbor.
 

CMike

Well-Known Member
I am neither Reform nor Humanistic. And my view is actually center-right for non-Orthodoxy.
I guess it depends on where you stand.

To ardent liberals, moderates are conservatives, and conservatives are ultra conservatives.

My view is orthodox.

The views you have expressed are not orthodox.
 

CMike

Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by CMike
Not that it's connected but yes the Torah was meant to be taken literally.



Hi CG D, the problem isn't taking GOD'S instructions and admonitions to liberal, but in taking man's interpretations and conclusions to liberal. GOD was right---the serpents conclusions were wrong. And "lust' lead to disobedience. Eve "saw". Had she considered that plucking out and being blind instead of lusting for those self gratifications, She may would have made a different decision.

What? :eek:

Could you put that english please?

"Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy GOD". Doing so is a foolish move and one not in agreement with the scriptures.




T he Story of mankind's and earth's origins and what happened then and the Restoration of that which was lost covers the entire Bible(OT and NT). Gen.3:15 is a part of the first rebellion and that rebellion of mankind has fluctuated between GOD'S professed peoples since Eden.
Ahaz was in rebellion with GOD while professing to serve GOD as Scripture informs one who has looked.
Since GOD knows the hearts and minds of all, one can be assured that Ahaz understood Gen.3:15---the seed of the woman---not of a man would produce a "HIS heel". Nor was Ahaz ignorant of GOD'S dealings with Abraham. Nothing is impossible with GOD. Therefore, would Ahaz believe GOD in being his protector. No, he didn't and the Son of Isaiah(by the prophetess) fulfilled the sign concerning Assyria.

What?

GOD is not a myth nor is the prophecies given by GOD.
But, all can believe that which tickles their mythical loving fancy.

Oh, never mind, I just remembered, the NT is to be taken more literal than the "old" covenant. So when Matthew says that a virgin would give birth to God's son, who is really one and the same as The God, then that is to be taken literally regardless of what the Hebrew Scriptures seem to say.[/quot e]

TOr one can remember that all of reality that one actually visualizes is from the biggest myth---the "Big Bang" which occurred from nothing.

I have no clue what you are trying to say.
 

CMike

Well-Known Member
Okay, let's suppose the Bible is literally true. How did you come by your interpretation of what's written in it? Because CMike takes it literal also and comes up with a completely different interpretation. Who taught you to think about the Bible and God the way you do? It was people. People you trust but not everybody trusts them. What is wrong with the Jewish interpretation? What's wrong with those "other" Christian interpretations? It's your Biblical opinion versus theirs. Why is yours the only one that is right? .

Several reasons.

We are not talking about interpretation, we are talking about translation.

1) It seems apparent that some chritistians are mistranslating words to make it fit their agenda.

They first conclude that it's talking about jesus and then they try to come up with the rationalization.

In other words they first pick the target and then they draw circles around it.

2) The Torah is not meant to be free associations. When it can anything, it means nothing.

The Torah has actual meaning. It was written by jews, for jews, to be interpreted by jews.



And that's the problem, those other people think their way of believing is just as good or even better than yours. You put out decent answers, but they aren't the only answer. If we're going to allow fudging with the words then who's right? The original verse can be made to mean almost anything. Oh, but then we're not taking it literally; we're changing the words to get it to say and mean Jesus when the original intent could have been something totally different. So how can I trust Christians when they are making a few "minor" changes to the literal, original (and who knows if that was even original?)Hebrew text? .

The problem is that they are being made to mean anything which I find very disrespectful.

They may be made to mean anything, but the Torah doesn't mean anything a group wants it to mean.

The writing is vague. The language was vague. It can and does have multiple interpretations. Is pregnant, will be pregnant, will be pregnant 700 years later but not be a man but by the Holy Spirit to keep her virgin status intact? You know if I didn't care, I wouldn't be here asking and questioning. I'd really like to know. But, I'm not going to listen to one side and not the other. I want your story and I want the other Christians' stories and I especially want to hear the Jewish side of the story.

I don't think the writing is vague.

I think there are groups that intentionally mistranslate words and meanings in order for them to fit into an agenda.
 

CMike

Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by sincerly
Hi Mike, "Self claim"??? Not by any stretch of the imagination. They rejected Jesus because it was prophesied they would.

Prophesized by whom?

The prophets prophesized that the messiah will be one uniform king of Israel. That's hardly rejection.


Mike, Jesus came as the Messiah as well,(Daniel specified the time table. the wise men sought HIM at that specified time and Herod sought to have him killed. Yes, Isaiah 53:3, "He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were [our] faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not."---- HE was rejected on both counts. You are free to carry on a false belief.

Isaiah 53 is referring to Israel. The actual book of Isaiah has not chapters. If you read before and after 53 it's clearly referring to Israel. It's one lone prophesy.


Not only did the Nation of Israel have a long vacillating relationship between the Creator GOD, but,also, with the gods of the nations about them. At the Time of Jesus, they were holding the "traditions and commandments of the "fathers" in greater esteem than those of GOD.
Their rejection of Jesus was NOT because Jesus was disobeying GOD'S Laws, but because HE rejected those "traditions and commandments which were contrary to those presented by GOD.

Those traditions adn commandments came directly from G-D.

So in reality jesus was rejecting G-D.

Yes, that was what Jesus was doing; presenting the real GOD to the people and those who heard HIS teachings were thrilled that HE taught the TRUTH rather than the truths mixed with those erroneous doctrines by the scribes and pharisees.

You mean those "erroneous doctrines" that were given to the jews by G-D.

It appears that most of the Jewish people have made "Israel" their GOD, just as they had the "bronze serpent" so many years ago.

Israel is part of the teachings of G-D.

Originally Posted by sincerly
Jesus taught in the temple and everywhere the truths of the WORD of GOD given by Prophets and written, but the people only listened to the "written writings of the scribes and Rabbis"("traditions and commandments written by men) rather than to writings of the prophets for their correction.

In the upper room following HIS resurrection HE Said, ""And he said unto them, These [are] the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and [in] the prophets, and [in] the psalms, concerning me".



And the gods of the nations were NOT?? If GOD was still the GOD of the Israelites(alone as you believe) then nothing would stop them from building the temple and returning to those sacrifices which were accepted when GOD Truly lead and defended them against their enemies.

However, we both know that Moses was right---"Ye are a stiff-necked people".

The jews were called stiff necked when they committed idol worship, such as the ones who followed jesus and treated him like a divine being.
 

CMike

Well-Known Member
For the record, CMike's view is a center-right Orthodox view. Non-Orthodox Jews, and most Modern Orthodox Jews, do not subscribe to complete literalism as a viewpoint. And my guess is that even CMike is being a little hyperbolic in his use of "literal," since there are numerous instances in traditional Jewish practical interpretation where we go by the text as the Rabbis of the Talmud teach and interpret it, not as the plain, surface meaning of the Biblical text might seem to indicate.

The jews were also given the oral law on Mt. Sinai. The oral law is as important as the written law, because the oral teaches how to implement the written law.

However, no the Torah's teachings are still the same. Nothing has changed.

The Torah is meant to be taken literally.
 

CMike

Well-Known Member
That was in response to Mike's: """The worst sin a jew can committ is to worship jesus. That is known a idol worship."""



Hi Jay, Truth is neither Jewish nor non-Jewish.
Ex.32:9 (33:5; 34:9) "And the LORD said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it [is] a stiffnecked people:" Assessment Before the 40 years and after (Deut.31:21-29), ""For I know thy rebellion, and thy stiff neck: behold, while I am yet alive with you this day, ye have been rebellious against the LORD; and how much more after my death? ""

And this is talking about when they worshipped false gods.

Has it changed over the years? No! That is why the prophets were continually being sent to correct and lead back to the very teachings taught By GOD at SINAI and instructions were given to Moses to teach GOD'S people a correct relationship to Himself and one's neighbor.

It is fortunte that the majority of jews weren't led astray by jesus to worship a false god.
 

Levite

Higher and Higher
The jews were also given the oral law on Mt. Sinai. The oral law is as important as the written law, because the oral teaches how to implement the written law.

However, no the Torah's teachings are still the same. Nothing has changed.

The Torah is meant to be taken literally.

Yes, I seem to recall hearing a thing or two about how Oral Torah works somewhere in the many years of Jewish education I had, or possibly in rabbinical school....

And re-stating the static nature of Torah doesn't make it less a mere doctrinal opinion of right-wing Orthodoxy of the last couple of hundred years.
 

sincerly

Well-Known Member
He could have been me. I "converted" back in '74 and really tried to be a "good" Christian for three years. It was real and it was good until I started questioning and doubting. And then, when my supposedly "good" Christian friends started doing drugs and women, I took a real hard look into exactly what we were supposed to be believing. As you well know, some of it is pretty farfetched.

Hi CG D, what you are describing is the parable of the sower. Matt.3-23 (Mark 4:4; Luke 8:5), "And when he sowed, some [seeds] fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up: ..." Vs.15, "For this people's heart is waxed gross, and [their] ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and should understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them."

By your own post, you attest to listening the falsely believing friends and erroneous teachings.

There is a remedy (for any who have tried to "prepare their "heart conditions") it is seen in Rev. 3:18, "I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and [that] the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see."

But Mr. Christian doesn't care. He goes to church and does the best he can. He doesn't have to be perfect, because he knows Jesus loves him and already forgave him of all his sins. He's going to heaven regardless of a few slip ups now and again, because he believes the right things and that's all that matters. But to doubt? That's bad. To question? God forbid.

CG D, that "Mr. Christian" is a "claims to be" but at heart fails to "walk the walk".
The "best one can do" is be Obedient to GOD---not one's lusts.
Yes, Jesus does love all of mankind, and has paid the price for the redemption of all. However, each one has to accept the terms of that freedom from the death penalty which is Confession of ones sins/rebellion, Repentance of those contrary actions and submission to the Will of the Father. (Nothing hard nor requires work.
One is deluding one's self if one thinks sin is taken lightly and heaven/eternal life allows one to continue in SIN.
No! Any "beliefs" which are contrary to GOD'S LAWS are NOT Right.
Doubts following the revelation of truth from the Scriptures is "bad".
The questioning of Teachings is encouraged as seen in Acts17:11, "These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. "

So therefore, no matter what you say, or a what a Jew says, or even what some "christians" say (especially the liberal kind), you guys are all wrong. The Bible says it (more or less), and he believes it (the way he was taught to believe it) and it's already settled in his mind, because to doubt is not from his god but from his god's enemy, the adversary... the one that has to eat dirt and crawl on his belly.

CG D, That which you are claiming---computes to---The whole of the Biblical Scriptures is erroneous. The Creator GOD was in error in correcting those HE chose out of the nations to be HIS witnesses to all Peoples. What those leaders(created being) chose as a fit to their whims was superior to the instructions and laws that GOD gave in love for a right relationship to HIM and neighbor.
And lastly, there isn't any adversary---it is all just a myth.

That may be your understanding, but it isn't what the Scriptures declare nor does it explain the evidence I see about me.

But you know, if it really made sense I'd love to believe. But, it just doesn't. Like with your question the seed of the woman is Jesus? To quote one of my favorite posters "Absolute nonsense!"

As the scriptures state concerning the sower, unless the stony heart is broken up nothing spiritual will grow.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
sincerly said:
You have called and do believe it all to be a myth; but in reality, GOD has shown HIS Power to human Beings for thousands of years.

Still playing the "myth" card again. Don't you have any honesty or imagination?

I have only being addressing topic in accordance with its literary narrative, not on the historical/mythological merits.

Can you not do the same, and read what I've written instead of twisting what I've written the way as you have distorted what were written in the bible?

For once, try to focus and understand what I've written and going on and on about your ignorant accusation of what you allegedly think that I'm talking about myth.
 
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sincerly

Well-Known Member
Still playing the "myth" card again. Don't you have any honesty or imagination?

I have only being addressing topic in accordance with its literary narrative, not on the historical/mythological merits.

Can you not do the same, and read what I've written instead of twisting what I've written the way as you have distorted what were written in the bible?

For once, try to focus and understand what I've written and going on and on about your ignorant accusation of what you allegedly think that I'm talking about myth.

Hi Gnostic, my post was to CG D, and was true.
The literary narrative included all the Scriptures concerning GOD's Plan for the redemption of Mankind as seen in the Genesis account. That you refuse to acknowledge.
Since you acknowledge a "historical/mythological merit", that can not be dismissed from the discussion.
And the twisting has been from your perspective and there has been no distortion of the Scriptures from this source. The Scriptures just can not be made to agree with your views to discredit them.
 
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