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An Atheist's Morals

Pah

Pah

Uber all member
Khale said:
Even athiests view of morals have their base in religion.
Click to expand...

This understanding of an atheists morality system keeps popping up. It was no more correct the first time it was said than it is now.

I do not know what the supposition is when it is said but there exists a morality based not on religion but on human values separate and distinct from any religious thought. This is what most atheists hold as a guide to behavior in society. That certain tenets of a humanistic value also occur in religious conduct it immaterial to the atheist. "Right" conduct has been around long before religion ever got organized, originating from the first human clan when the first gods were actually goddesses.

-pah-
 
Engyo

Engyo

Prince of Dorkness!
Pah & all -

I don't know if Buddhists qualify here, depending on whether one considers Buddhists to be atheist or not (debated elsewhere). Buddha taught a system of morality called the Eightfold Path. Basically, it is a set of guidleines for living which cause the least amount of additional suffering for all living beings.

For those interested, the Eightfold Path is contained in the Buddhism Overview, under Eastern Beliefs, at http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=491
 
Feathers in Hair

Feathers in Hair

World's Tallest Hobbit
Maybe the people who say such things are under the impression that it's a compliment? From many of their religions, it is a drastic point of view to suppose that those that don't 'have religion' actually do have morals, so it must be an even more drastic concept to think that such morals did not originate with religion, but with humanity, instead.
 
Pah

Pah

Uber all member
Engyo said:
Pah & all -

I don't know if Buddhists qualify here, depending on whether one considers Buddhists to be atheist or not (debated elsewhere). Buddha taught a system of morality called the Eightfold Path. Basically, it is a set of guidleines for living which cause the least amount of additional suffering for all living beings.

For those interested, the Eightfold Path is contained in the Buddhism Overview, under Eastern Beliefs, at http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=491
Click to expand...

Sounds humanistic to me - even from the shortness of your description and the genearlization of the listed steps of the path.

-pah-
 
Engyo

Engyo

Prince of Dorkness!
Economist -

Respectfully, could you please explain to me how the teachings of Buddha come ultimately from God? I am quite confused by your comment.
 
Mr Spinkles

Mr Spinkles

Mr
Economist said:
Everyone in every society around the world has similar morals
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That depends on how loosely you are using the word "similar". Read an issue of National Geographic and you'll see what I mean.
 
C

civilcynic

Member
I have more of a question than a comment when it comes to development morals/values....what really came first - religion or moral code? Did a moral code develop amongst early people before religion, vice versa or perhaps simultaneously?
 
Pah

Pah

Uber all member
Economist said:
Everyone in every society around the world has similar morals because they all come ultimately from God.
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Morality predates God.

-pah-
 
Pah

Pah

Uber all member
civilcynic said:
I have more of a question than a comment when it comes to development morals/values....what really came first - religion or moral code? Did a moral code develop amongst early people before religion, vice versa or perhaps simultaneously?
Click to expand...

My thought is that early clans were an established society. Morality developed well before religion became sophisticated enough to propose a social order. The first gods were for crops or fire or hunting and maybe even childbirth. Social conduct, within a clan, came first and was based upon mutually accepted humanistic behavior.

-pah-
 
linwood

linwood

Well-Known Member
My morals are in no way based on the religion I was surrounded with in my life.

They came from a long process of introspection, interaction, and study that is still evolving.
 
Economist

Economist

Member
Engyo said:
Economist -

Respectfully, could you please explain to me how the teachings of Buddha come ultimately from God? I am quite confused by your comment.
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Many of Buddha's teachings were at odds with God's message; however, kindness toward fellow man certainly is a product of God's love for all of us. Pope John Paul II actually dedicates an entire chapter of his book, "Crossing the Threshold of Hope," to similarities and differences between Buddhism and Catholicism (as well as many other religions). I'm not really an expert, certainly not of the order of the Pope, so I would suggest that book to you, provided you have the time.
 
Engyo

Engyo

Prince of Dorkness!
Economist -

I am somewhat versed in the similarities between Christianity in its various forms, and Buddhism in its various forms. I can also point to numerous works by, among others, Thich Nhat Han and the Dalai Lama, which explore the same ground.

Respectfully though, I fail to see how similarities in certain parts of the two teachings would lead one to believe that one teaching is the source of the other. In particular, I believe that the appearance of these similar concepts in the Buddhist canon predates the same appearance in the Judeo-Christian canon; this increases my skepticism of your particular theory here. Could you please elaborate further?

Namaste, Engyo
 
C

civilcynic

Member
pah said:
My thought is that early clans were an established society. Morality developed well before religion became sophisticated enough to propose a social order. The first gods were for crops or fire or hunting and maybe even childbirth. Social conduct, within a clan, came first and was based upon mutually accepted humanistic behavior.

-pah-
Click to expand...


I basically agree but then I think that perhaps the two developed simultaneously. Religious belief was helpful in providing an explanation to those things that early man did not understand and/or had no control over. It also perhaps was useful in providing a vehicle to reinforce andor discourage certain types of behavior.
 
Economist

Economist

Member
Engyo said:
Economist -

I am somewhat versed in the similarities between Christianity in its various forms, and Buddhism in its various forms. I can also point to numerous works by, among others, Thich Nhat Han and the Dalai Lama, which explore the same ground.

Respectfully though, I fail to see how similarities in certain parts of the two teachings would lead one to believe that one teaching is the source of the other. In particular, I believe that the appearance of these similar concepts in the Buddhist canon predates the same appearance in the Judeo-Christian canon; this increases my skepticism of your particular theory here. Could you please elaborate further?

Namaste, Engyo
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It isn't the teaching of the Church that is the source, but the teaching of the Catholic Church and some of Buddha's teachings were both inspired by the Holy Spirit.
 
Engyo

Engyo

Prince of Dorkness!
Economist -

OK, sorry for the misunderstanding. I still fail to see how someone could conclude that the Buddhist Eightfold Path (or any similarities between Buddhism and Christianity) were inspired by the Holy Spirit. Of course I don't subscribe to the concept of the Holy Spirit at all; this would obviously make it harder for me to understand.

Respectfully, if I were to accept your premise, then I have another question. If the Holy Spirit is the inspiration for *certain portions* of Buddhist teachings which resemble Christian ones, who or what is responsible for the rest, the parts which contradict or negate core Christian teachings? And is there some explanation for why the Holy Spirit was only minimally successful in inspiring the Buddha and his followers to true and complete understanding according to Christian beliefs?

Please do not consider these questions as attacks; I just am having a very hard time parsing the logic behind this theory you put forward.

Namaste, Engyo
 
Economist

Economist

Member
The idea is that the Holy Spirit fills us with the love of God. The Catholic Church, founded by Jesus Christ, is the means of interpretation for its message on Earth. It is still natural to be moved by its grace to show kindness toward your neighbor, and to raise a loving family, and things of that nature. The rest of the doctrine of Buddhism, with which I'm only vaguely familiar, would be the result of an imperfect knowledge of God.
 
Engyo

Engyo

Prince of Dorkness!
Economist -

My apologies; I just can't imagine how the Holy Spirit could be the inspiration for dependent co-arising, impermanence or no-self. These concepts, in particular, all directly contradict Judeo-Christian thinking on some very fundamental points of how life and the universe(s) work.

To get back to the original thread, I can understand how Buddhist morality and Christian morality can display very similar concepts and qualities; both Buddhism and Christianity are ultimately aimed at relieving suffering. I believe I can also understand Pah's original intent with this thread; things like "don't kill" and "don't steal" are very basic, common sense behavioral rules for humans to follow in order to live alongside one another with a minimum of unnecessary suffering caused by that behavior. That could explain why virtually all human societies exhibit these particular very basic similarities in their moral codes.
 
Pah

Pah

Uber all member
civilcynic said:
I basically agree but then I think that perhaps the two developed simultaneously. Religious belief was helpful in providing an explanation to those things that early man did not understand and/or had no control over. It also perhaps was useful in providing a vehicle to reinforce andor discourage certain types of behavior.
Click to expand...

I'm not adverse to that but I do "lean" toward the direction I took earlier.

-pah-
 
T

thomasedison

Member
civilcynic said:
I basically agree but then I think that perhaps the two developed simultaneously. Religious belief was helpful in providing an explanation to those things that early man did not understand and/or had no control over. It also perhaps was useful in providing a vehicle to reinforce andor discourage certain types of behavior.
Click to expand...
It was useful in providing an explanation to the early man over things he didn't understand. But look at the results. When he started believing that thunder is caused by anger of Gods and that God needs sacrifice to be pleased, he started sacrificing his fellow men.

What did religion lead to? The Crusades, Dark Ages, Inquisition, Witch-Hunts and loads of other unjustifiable cruelities.

Today, fundamentalists of Islam are spreading terror.

What is religion to a murderer? Religion may have been useful in stopping some petty crimes by weak-willed people but the damage it has caused far exceeds any benefit which it might have given to the world.
 
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