Why does hell have to be eternal?

Me Myself said:

That´s my only problem with it.

Click to expand...

In that case you will be relieved to know that hell is just open from the time the vials are poured out and until the GWT event which is just after Satan and the fallen angels are sent to the fiery lake. If those men were destined for the lake they would have gone at the same time, rather they serve out their whole punishment period and at they get a pardon and a drink of living water when resurrected at the GWT. They are the ones being chastised in Hebrews 12 and they are the ones that Isa:65 is about from the 1st verse to the last verse in that whole chapter, the ones called 'the rest' in Re:20 are the ones building house in Isa:65, the servants from that chapter live inside New Jerusalem and that come as a completed home.

KingOfTheJungle said:

Doesn't this view imply that in God's eyes we're all simply immature children? I think a parent of a small child may feel this way at times but what about when your children are grown and they lie to your face? As far as my views on God, I'm an orthodox Christian, therefore I view him as a parent to some and the judge of others.

Click to expand...

you are an orthodox? how come in your profile you are stating evangelical. These are difference denominations you know.

Me Myself said:

That´s my only problem with it.

In what way making hell eternal makes it closer to "justice"?

Why?

Click to expand...

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The teaching of eternal torment is based on the immortal-soul theory. However, the Bible clearly says:[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]“The soul that is sinning—it itself will die.” (Ezekiel 18:4, 20) [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] Hell (Hades) cannot be a place of eternal torment because it will be done a way with.[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Revelation 20:14 “And death and Ha′des were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire.”[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] Death obviously cannot be literally burned. Those who are ‘tormented forever’ (from Gr., [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]ba·sa·ni′zo[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]) in the lake of fire undergo “second death” from which there is no resurrection.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Jesus was in Hades. Peter said of the Christ: [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]“Neither was he forsaken in Hades nor did his flesh see corruption. This Jesus God resurrected, of which fact we are all witnesses.” (Ac 2:25-27, 29-32) [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] And after the apostle Paul told the Supreme Court of judges in Athens, Greece, that God had raised up his Son Jesus Christ from the dead in order to act as judge of all the inhabited earth the record says, [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]“well, when they heard of a resurrection of the dead, some began to mock.” (Acts 17:18, 31, 32)[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] Those Greeks believed in the immortality of the human soul and that there were no dead. Hence they could not accept the teaching that human souls are dead and need to be resurrected in order to live again.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]The apostle Paul told of more than five hundred eyewitnesses, including himself, who saw the resurrected Jesus Christ after he had been put to death publicly on a torture stake and had been buried in a sealed tomb. Paul pointed out what Christ’s resurrection meant for dead mankind by saying: “Now Christ has been raised up from the dead, the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep in death. For since death is through a man [Adam, the first man], resurrection of the dead is also through a man.” [Christ] (1 Cor. 15:20, 21) The resurrection of Jesus Christ opened up the way for others, dead mankind, to be resurrected.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]Jesus’ promise of victory over Hades means that its “gates” will open to release the dead by means of a resurrection, even as was the case with Christ Jesus himself. For Jesus Christ, “the gates of Hades” had swung open when his Father resurrected him out of Hades. After that time, through the power of the resurrection given him, Jesus is the Holder of “the keys of death and of Hades.”[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]In view of the proceeding information Hades is not a literal place in a specific location. Rather, it is the common grave of dead mankind, the figurative location where most of mankind sleep in death. In it's original languages, the Bible uses the Hebrew word she’ohl′ and its Greek equivalent hai′des more than 70 times. Both words are related to death. Some Bible translations render them as “grave,” “hell,” or “pit.”[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]When Revelation 20:13, 14 says that the sea, (many have died or been buried at sea) death, and Hades are to give up or be emptied of the dead in them. Death and Hades being cast into “the lake of fire,” “the second death.” means they figuratively ‘die out’ of existence, and this signifies the end of Hades (Sheol), the common grave of mankind.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]So...to answer your question...hell is not eternal according to the Bible.[/FONT]

Iridescence said:

In other words, to say that Jesus won't reach his clearly stated goal of saving the world after what he went through is to diminish his sacrifice, imo.

Click to expand...

The Xbox 360 was made for everyone, but only those that buy the console actually reap the benefits. If you don't buy it, you don't reap the benefits of it (by theory). Plain and simple. Jesus death was for the world, but only those that believe in him reap the benefits. His goal was to die for the world, but it isn't his fault that there will be some that reject the sacrifice.

Iridescence said:

Romans 3:10-11: "As it is written: 'There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God.'"

Click to expand...

And Jesus also said that no one is good except God alone (Luke 18:19), no one is perfect. Seems to harmonize rather nicely.

Iridescence said:

Christianity is barely separable from the church system, unfortunately. And if you're not going to church, it doesn't take long for your Christian friends to try to lasso you back into one, believe me. If you don't, they'll give you the spiel about how you're leaving yourself open to satanic attack if you're not under the "covering" of a church.

Click to expand...

Well, I haven't been to church going on almost 20 years, but that makes me no less saved than someone that has gone to church for the past 20 years. Church service is preferred, not required. It is not a command or obligation.

Iridescence said:

How many gods are there? I was under the impression there's only one.

Click to expand...

There is only one true God, but there are many false ones.

Iridescence said:

God has been around much longer than the bible; to confine one's view of Him to just one collection of writings from one belief system is an exercise in attempting to put Him in a (very small) box, no?

Click to expand...

If you believe, as Christians do, that the bible is the inspired word of God, to read the bible is to read God directly talking to you.

Iridescence said:

On top of that, "God of the bible" according to who? And which bible? Which denomination?

Click to expand...

As long as you believe that Jesus is Lord and Savior and that he died for your sins, the "who's" and the "what" debate will come later.

Iridescence said:

As I said, what constitutes a True Christian varies within Christianity, so that's something they'll have to work out as it's no longer my knot to unravel; I no longer identify as Christian.

Click to expand...

Apart from certain doctrine disagreements, most denominations agree that Christianity is the belief that Jesus is the Son of God and he came on the earth to die for your sins, thus placing your faith in him and imitating him in your life is what makes one a Christian. Now of course, we don't all agree on everything, but we at least agree on that much.

Iridescence said:

Assuming any saving is/was necessary, yes. I already provided a link to the bible verses that supported my views on that (see post #393), but your response to that was merely this: :beach: So it appears as though you had decided to stop listening just as your request for those scriptures was being answered.

Click to expand...

Ok, I will check it now, in real time lol. Ahhh, just checked it. What I need, if you will be so kind, is give me your top five scriptures that support your view. The vast majority of those scriptures in that link are not even speaking of salvation, but on the holiness of the Lord. I would like to focus on just a few, your top ones.

Iridescence said:

Of course it is. Just tell Christians there might be no hell, and the first thing they'll say is along the lines of, "well then we can sin all we want 'cause were all saved anyway". I've seen it countless times on this forum (including this discussion) and elsewhere. If it isn't the motivation, I sure don't know what is; that reaction alone speaks volumes.

Click to expand...

Well, they can say that but if they strive to live a life of sin, one can argue that they are not genuine Christians. But the good thing about it is, God knows everyone's hearts, and he will judge everyone accordingly, he will be able to pick out the real from the fakes.

Iridescence said:

If hell is real, then its omission from the church's curriculum is a mistake, if not somewhat dishonest. If hell is real, people should be warned about it as soon as possible, don't you think? If Christians believe in hell, why would they hide this from their kids? They have to learn about it sooner or later.

Click to expand...

As they get older they will learn. I can attest to that, my early Christian education wasn't about being bombarded with the hell doctrine, yet I know about it now. It worked for me, didn't it.

Iridescence said:

So why the panicked response I see so often of "without hell people would sin all they want"? You've proven that Christians don't need the hell-card to evangelize, and that it's love and not the threat of torture that wins people over to God. This only serves to prove that God doesn't need a hell to draw people to Himself.

Click to expand...

But the point is that God punishes sin. Bottom line. And hell is a factual reality that one must accept. Not believing in it wont change anything, sweeping it under the rug wont change anything. Ignoring it and pretending it doesn't exist wont change a thing either.

Iridescence said:

I don't see how; the verse doesn't apply to what I was saying.

Click to expand...

Oh but it does. Basically, some followers of Jesus deserted him because the teaching was hard to understand/follow. Seems to me as if that is what you are doing.

Iridescence said:

But they're unbelievers when they're told they should believe Jesus is their Savior, even though he's supposedly not their savior at that point. So, for them as unbelievers, it would be untrue that he's their savior, so you're telling unbelievers to believe something that's untrue for them.

Click to expand...

Have you ever worked at a place where there is a break room, and every now and then someone will bring candy or doughnuts to the break room and leave it on the tables, sort of like a "free, take one" kind of deal. Now initially, the candy/doughnuts is for everyone that wants to freely take one. It is for everyone, but not everyone will want/take one. So if you go outside and tell one of your coworkers who is having a cigarette "Hey, someone left some doughnuts in the break room, you should have one", and he responds "I know, but I dont like doughnuts"....despite this, the doughnuts are still available for him if he freely chooses. That is how salvation works, it is for everyone, but since not everyone will accept it, it is rendered to just those that did take it, or will take it.

Iridescence said:

But you said that as unbelievers Jesus isn't their Savior, so you're telling unbelievers to believe something that's not true for unbelievers.

Click to expand...

Just dont believe it then. Like I said above, the doughnuts are for you too, if you dont want one, dont take one.

Iridescence said:

Maybe you should re-think the idea that Jesus is not the Savior of unbelievers? As it is written, God is the savior of everyone, "especially" (not "exclusively") of believers.

Click to expand...

The doughnuts are for whoever wants to take one. If you take it, you enjoy yourself a nice tasty delight, if not, then you go without. Plain and simple

KingOfTheJungle said:

Doesn't this view imply that in God's eyes we're all simply immature children? I think a parent of a small child may feel this way at times but what about when your children are grown and they lie to your face? As far as my views on God, I'm an orthodox Christian, therefore I view him as a parent to some and the judge of others.

Click to expand...

What type of Orthodox are you? Eastern or Oriental?

Iridescence said:

There's a slight problem with that. If Jesus is not an unbeliever's savior, why would Christians tell the unbeliever to believe that Jesus is their savior? Why would they believe something that isn't true?

So the only motivation for morality is to stay out of 'hell'? How, then, do you explain the good morals of people who don't believe in a hell? Is there no other reason to love God than for the purpose of staying out of 'hell'?

Maybe because being saved frees one up to love more easily? Remember what your bible says about perfect love casting out fear, since fear has to do with punishment?

That depends on one's motivation for loving their neighbor.

If one is doing it solely because they fear hell otherwise, that's a sad reason, and that's not even love, that's just someone making nice with others to butter up his Boss so he doesn't get canned.

So we have established that you would not only bring a child into the world even though you knew they would reject God and end up in hell, but you would risk the almighty creator's feelings being hurt by said rejection.

Again, wow.

Like I said, a truly free will would permit a person to enter heaven on any terms they chose, not just the two of "turn or burn". I'm not sure how much clearer I can make this.

Again, no. The English word “hell” in Scripture is used for four different things: Gehenna, Sheol, Hades, and Tartarus. Gehenna was merely a garbage dump, Sheol means simply the grave, and the last two are from Greek mythology. None of them refer to the endless torture pit concept seemingly cherished by many Christians.

God is Omniscient -- He knew the end from the beginning before creating even the first individual. So it was well within His power to set things up in such a way that hell wouldn't have been necessary. If there is anything to punish, it's there because of His design. It all traces back to Him, as the Creator of it all.

There are the claims, and then there are the counter-claims. But since it's something that supposedly happened in the distant past, one's faith isn't really being placed on Jesus, but rather on what others claim about Jesus. Therefore, technically, it's basically faith in other people's claims, not faith directly in Jesus, being preached by Christianity.

Careful ... that's starting to sound like the prodigal son's 'righteous' brother, resenting the father's throwing a party for the 'unrighteous' prodigal while the brother, meanwhile, was doing everything 'right'.

Do you think it's okay for Jesus to have (allegedly) suffered that much only to end up with a small fraction of mankind when it's all over? Heck, we don't settle for less than what we pay for at the local convenience store, and yet Christians expect Jesus -- who is said to have paid a heckuva lot more -- to just roll over and settle for way less than what he paid for so painfully?!

Wow is right!

Where does Jesus think that? Especially since unbelief would be a key symptom of the very illness from which he is claimed to save. You're making him sound like a doctor who treats colds as long as the cold doesn't involve sneezing.

No, I'm not making this specifically a science issue either; this is a reality issue. Unless you're saying that morality -- and the Jesus that you link it to -- isn't reality after all ...?

Ah yes, how dare the father throw a party for those unworthy, unwashed prodigals!

Hey, either it's all Jesus or it isn't. To preach Jesus as the Savior and then put the actual saving on the shoulders of the individual is one very confused system.

I could also see Him doing that for everyone and not just a select few elite members of some Christian Country Club in the Sky, as is (in effect) commonly preached.

And I asked you this before but you seemed to have overlooked it -- how do you know I rejected it or didn't accept Jesus?

What good does dying on a cross do if it's not even effective unless someone believes it? Do you realize how much like a fairytale this makes it sound? It's equivalent to the one where Tinker bell will die if people don't believe in her. Same dynamic.

So.... is this Jesus thing a belief-powered fairy-tale, or is it a hard reality that needs no one's permission in order to make its intended impact?

"Attack mode"... why do Christians seem to perceive a differing view as an attack? If I were using all-caps in any of my posts (which, in cyberspace, denotes shouting) I could see it looking like an attack, but so far I haven't been doing that. How 'bout you?

As for the scriptures that leave little room for the concept of endless torment in hell, you can check them out here: Bible Verses that Support the Redemption of All Things

Christians aren't unified on this point, either. Some teach that since a person is "dead in their transgressions", they can't believe until God infuses them with that belief.

In fact, those who preach that belief (or faith, or repentance) is a personal choice might be interested to know that the bible suggests otherwise, that belief/repentance/faith is granted by God rather than done by man.

Click to expand...

while I totally get this armenian view, you are right in what scripture teaches, however you leave out the concept that because men do not know the elect, the call to the will of man and the word utilzed in that calling is essential to God's plan.

haribol said:

Hell is simply an invention and to think there is any physical place like hell is boorish. It is a state of mind and we can kind of make hell out of heaven and heaven out of hell. To think there is any physical or territorial reality like hell is a primitive thought

Click to expand...

hmmmmm, there you have it you studiers of scripture, have no fear, just don't believe in it and you will be fine......

davidthegreek said:

What type of Orthodox are you? Eastern or Oriental?

Click to expand...

I didn't mean orthodox in that way. I am an orthodox evangelical Christian which is to say that I'm not a heretic in the eyes of all orthodox Christian branches including Catholicism, Lutheranism, Anglicanism, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental etc.It means I don't subscribe to beliefs that deny the faith from this perspective. Another way to say it is that I'm considered an actual Christian from these perspectives even is some of them consider protestantism to be flawed. "Orthodox" can refer to denominations as well as doctrine

Lady B said:

hmmmmm, there you have it you studiers of scripture, have no fear, just don't believe in it and you will be fine......

Click to expand...

actually, most bible scholars indeed do not believe in it.

Having to do with knowing it too well o.o

Me Myself said:

actually, most bible scholars indeed do not believe in it.

Having to do with knowing it too well o.o

Click to expand...

You will need support for that premise if you ever expect anyone to believe it.Though It's definition can be debated, the concept is clearly given in scripture.

Outside of Jerusalem was a trash dump that was constantly on fire, "Gehenna" as it was called was a place of filth. As robbers and murderers didn't deserve a proper burial in order to reach salvation, they threw the bodies into the flames to be burned up. Because jews didn't believe in a soul seperate from the physical body, those without the proper burial would be stopped from reaching salvation. There started the idea of hell as an eternal fiery place without god.
Sounds crazy? Look it up. "Valley of hinnom" "gehenna"

Call_of_the_Wild said:

Well, they didn't know. God doesn't hold people responsible for what they don't know. He holds you responsible for what you do know, and like I said before, we will all be judged based on what we know/knew.

Click to expand...

So, you are saying that people who saw Jesus everyday, saw his miracles, talked with him, heard him say who he said he was, in person, and yet still didn't know are exempt from all responsibility, that would mean everyone will be exempt from responsibility. Its much harder seeing the miracles and knowing truths about a person who in no way communicates with you, has been dead for 2000 years and asks you to rely on "faith". Yet, somehow the guards didn't fall under the "faith" guidelines of responsibility.

It just makes no sense at all to me....Either we are all going to Heaven, except a handful of people who have actually had 100% proof he exists (Or think they did) or people will be held responsible for what they don't know.

I would also like to point out that Atheists are almost always (in my experience) Agnostic. Meaning they don't believe God exists (atheist), but they don't know, for a fact, that no God exists (agnostic). It appears belief makes little difference if this is the case.

You then go on to say,

It is more along the lines of "Jesus died for you......BUT..." kind of deal. It makes perfect since to me...Jesus is saying "I died for you too, but if you don't accept me as Lord and Savior, my death is rendered insignificant to you". To easy.

Click to expand...

You are assuming I know something that I don't. If you have proof that God exists thats fantastic, but not everyone does. I can say, for a fact, that I have met 2 people who claimed to have absolute proof of God in 28 years. If God truly doesn't punish you for what you don't know then their is no way he can punish you for not knowing if Jesus was who he said he was, did what he said he did, and whether that actually had any effect on our, supposed, invisible souls that will continue on into some supernatural place that is beyond time and space once we die. As a matter of fact their is lots of evidence to suggest its all baloney. So, in that case, everyones going to heaven or you have a blatant contradiction in your Bible and that kind of proves it wasn't God breathed, unless God is a contradiction unto himself (being timeless and all).

if there is a god, why didnt he make all this clearer when he created the bible.

after all with all his wisdom he could surely write a book we could all understand with the answers to everything.

mayuboar said:

if there is a god, why didnt he make all this clearer when he created the bible.

after all with all his wisdom he could surely write a book we could all understand with the answers to everything.

Click to expand...

I believe it to be very clear to those who want to understand:[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]

(1 Corinthians 8:5, 6) . . .For even though there are those who are called “gods,” whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” 6 there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him.

[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif](Proverbs 28:5) . . .Men given to badness cannot understand judgment, but those who are seeking Jehovah can understand everything. . .[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif](Proverbs 3:5) . . .Trust in Jehovah with all your heart and do not lean upon your own understanding.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]
(John 17:3). . .This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ. . .[/FONT]

Me Myself said:

That´s my only problem with it.

In what way making hell eternal makes it closer to "justice"?

Why?

Click to expand...

Me Myself,
Your question is good!!
Hell is NOT eternal!!! The term translated in the Christian Greek Scriptures, as HELL, is a corruption of the Greek word HADES. The Greek word HADES is the same as the Hebrew word Sheol. Ps 16:10, is Hebrew and uses Sheol and is quoted into Greek as Hell or in some translations, Hades, Acts 2:27. Both terms Sheol and Hades are the same, because Peter quoted from the Hebrew when speaking in Greek in Acts 2:27, 31.
The Jews never gave a thought about Hell, or Hades or Sheol as being a place of torment. The fact is: several of the writers and prophets asked God to go the sheol to get out of the torment, here on earth, 1Kings 19:4, Job 14:13-15, Jonah 4:3.
Remember too, Jesus was a perfect man, never sinned!!! Jesus would never have been put in The Hell, if it was a place of torment. Consider also, Hades, Hell is also going to be thrown into the Lake of Fire, which is the Second death, meaning to be everlastingly GONE, as death also will be, 1Cor 15:54-57, Rev 20:13-15. So you see, HELL is not forever, it itself will be done away with safter all who are in it will be resurrected, John 5:28,29, Acts 24:15.

starlite said:

I believe it to be very clear to those who want to understand:

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif](1 Corinthians 8:5, 6) . . .For even though there are those who are called “gods,” whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” [/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif]6 there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif](Proverbs 28:5) . . .Men given to badness cannot understand judgment, but those who are seeking Jehovah can understand everything. . .[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif](Proverbs 3:5) . . .Trust in Jehovah with all your heart and do not lean upon your own understanding.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif](John[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif] 17:3). . .This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ. . .[/FONT]

Click to expand...

not at all true, if it was people would not be on this site, or needing a priest to explain things.
The so called word of god was not written clearly, not god for something that is described as the all knowing.

starlite said:

I believe it to be very clear to those who want to understand:[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]

(1 Corinthians 8:5, 6) . . .For even though there are those who are called “gods,” whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” 6 there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him.

[/FONT][FONT=Arial, sans-serif](Proverbs 28:5) . . .Men given to badness cannot understand judgment, but those who are seeking Jehovah can understand everything. . .[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, sans-serif](Proverbs 3:5) . . .Trust in Jehovah with all your heart and do not lean upon your own understanding.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, sans-serif]
(John 17:3). . .This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ. . .[/FONT]

Click to expand...

Reality disagrees with this concensus however. Over 11,000+ denominations speak to the "fact" not "opinion" that the Bible is a very unclear, scattered mess that can be made to say almost anything depending on what you choose to focus on. Problems in translation don't help either, which was apparently caused by God as well when people tried to build a tower to heaven.

please read this article: I make no guarantees of its Orthodoxy. It talks about the concept since the beginning of christianity till now.

mayuboar said:

if there is a god, why didnt he make all this clearer when he created the bible.

after all with all his wisdom he could surely write a book we could all understand with the answers to everything.

Click to expand...

Buddhism is no more based on solid fact if your going by those standards