FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
No,IMO Jesus pbuh was talking about the earth which is a dead object and every dead will be burried to earth where all dead belong to it,it's very obvious and clear literally.
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Koran v. Bible
- Thread starter Desfox
- Start date
No,IMO Jesus pbuh was talking about the earth which is a dead object and every dead will be burried to earth where all dead belong to it,it's very obvious and clear literally.
InvestigateTruth
Well-Known Member
Then here, we have a difference in regards to how to find the truth.
I believe that whenever there is a religious discussion, it should be backed up by scriptures and logic.
To say, there is a mistake in Bible, simply because it is against your desire, and simply because it doesn't serve your purpose, in my view is not truthful. We cannot sacrifice the truth of Bible simply for our own desire.
Also, another difference is that, I do not believe in relying comletely on scholars openions. Everyone is responsible for Himself to search and investigate.
So, if we do not agree on these basics, simply we cannot come to any conclusion.
- Peace!
InvestigateTruth
Well-Known Member
But have you read it within the context of the Bible?
There was a man, who died. He was not a believer. Then, another man wanted to bury him. Jesus asked the man to go with Him to preach. the man said to Jesus, he cannot come because he wants to bury his relative who died. Then Jesus said, "let the dead bury their dead"
IMV, He meant let his relative who were also not believers, take care of it. Then the man went with Jesus.
Here are some verses from Quran. What does "life" and "dead", "in graves", mean in your view, from the following verses? (and please read the original Arabic)
"Can a person who was dead, and whom We raised to life and gave the Light to walk with among people, be like the one who is in the depths of darkness from which he can never come out? Since they treat both of them alike, the actions of the unbelievers are made lucrative to them,"(6:122)
Prophet, you cannot make those who are in the graves hear you.(35:22)
"O ye Faithful! Make answer to the appeal of God and His Apostle when He calleth you to that which giveth life. 1 (Anfal-8:24)
"While the gods whom they call on beside God, create nothing, but are themselves created. Dead are they (the unbelievers), lifeless ! and they know not when they shall be raised. (Nahl-16:20-22)
(30:52) But, verily, thou canst not make the dead to hear, nor canst thou make the deaf to hear the call, when they turn their backs and flee;
and this is from the Bible:
Jesus said to him, "Let the dead bury their own dead, but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God." Luke 9:60
1robin
Christian/Baptist
I did supply most of the scriptures and all of the logic. Your view on scripture is a fringe, unheard of interpretation that is in no way compatable with the very scriptures I quoted. Most are exactly opposite from the mainstream and consistent scholarly concensus. It makes the bible a theological mess by destroying the harmony it had and substituting it with theological none sence.
I did not say there was a mistake in the bible. I said you made a mistake in your biblical understanding. I supplied the verses that make your position meaningless. I could supply the commentators, writings of the church fathers, modern scholarly opinions which do not line up in any way with your but at this point I do not think you care. I am even aware of the prevelant heretical and gnostic beliefs concerning these issues. Even they make more sense than the interpretations you have.
I never said I did rely on commentators to any great extent. However your position agrees with no orthodox Christian position in history that I am aware of. I have never even heard most of your interpretations and I have spent 15 plus years listening to every theological debate or scholarly paper I could find. I am sorry they make absolutely no theological sence within the context of the book they are found in. You have simply made up meanings for verses that have never existed before to any meaningful extent, to make your theology more pallatable. You seem to be all over the place here lately and have finally just punted.
I respect anyones right to believe what they wish I however will always resist when they try to tie their theology in with mine by butchering very simple well known biblical theological concepts or attempt to compare their prophets with Christ without any cause. It is quite simply a silly comparison. You may believe whatever you wish but not at the expense of the truth when it involves my religion.
As I have said you have always been polite and I respect that but your biblical knowledge is not just incorrect it is off the chart incorrect. If I had to appeal to stuff like that I would seriously reconsider my beliefs. Sincerely
InvestigateTruth
Well-Known Member
I think it is pretty ok you resist to any new Idea, which is different from what you learnd before. It is quite natural. Although I shouldn't try to convince you about Baha'i view, however, I am giving you that view, and I am providing with biblical verses.
I didn't see that you actually quote much from the bible with verse number.
I also, do not believe that just because historically Christians understood the Bible in a certain way, their understanding was correct. If you remember, the people living before jesus, had a certain understanding about Messiah from the Torah, but when Jesus appeared, they did not recognize Him as a true Messiah, simply because what they understood from their scripture, was not what they saw in Jesus. Simply because they had a different expectations. This means, that, it is also possible for Christians not recognize the return of Christ, simply because what they understood from Bible may not be correct.
1robin
Christian/Baptist
I have nothing against new ideas if they are correct. Your views on the bible in the last few posts alone are not even possibly right they violate so many biblical principles that have been studied and established for over a thousand years and have withstood much better attacks or counter claims than you make.
Here is one example:
This was all about the original claim I made that Jesus raised people from the dead.
You said
To which I responded.
As you can see the literal interpretation is the only interpretation. No one I have ever heard of (I know most major claims including false ones) has ever suggested these are allegory. You can also see that I am the only one who actually posted scripture and it is your remarks that have no applicatiion to the topic but concern unrelated issues which even they are even miracles that your prophet didn't do. This is very typical of all your claims. They bear no resembelance to reality. Your claim that Jesus only raised people spiritually is quite simply wrong. Also your claim that I had no scriptual back-up being wrong is an undeniable demonstratable (which I did)fact.
They have not always had the same view and many still don't. They have argued over certain issues for two thousand years or more. However all of their contentions are reasonable and do not resemble yours in any way. I appreciate a good argument even if I do not agree. However yours are not good or even logical they are bizarre and contradictory to any reasonable interpretation. Claiming the Trinity is or is not true are both reasonable positions. Claiming Jesus only raised people spiritually or the apostles fulfill the sign of Jonah are nonesence and weird not to mention impossible. An atheist I debated gave me a good one, He suggested the apostles stole Jesus body on the night he was executed. I do not believe this but it is a reasonable theory and I told him so. Your claims are not even remotely reasonable they are meaningless.
They were and are wrong, there are 350 plus prohecies that only fit Christ. However I even regard their positions (non messianic Jewish) as far more reasonable than yours. I like you and you are a nice guy but your interpretations are by far the worst I have ever heard.
Since there is no comparison between your prophet or any other (even though there are many that are infinately more qualified than yours) and Christ I would suggest we move on to this second coming issue instead as I believe I owe you some signs you requested, correct? If you are interested in the Truth I would strongly advise you to primarily use Christian, Muslim, and Jewish scholars to interpret their respective scriptures. You are making a grave error if you go down the path you are on at least concerning the bible. As far as the second coming are you referring to the coming on the clouds of glory (rapture) event or the end of everything events?
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InvestigateTruth
Well-Known Member
Jesus also called Himself a prophet.
Moses was a prophet, and as I quoted, God made Him like a God to His people.
What prove do you have that in these verses, when Jesus is talking about "Dead" and "alive", the scripture is meant to be taken literal? How do you determine that, other than saying, because Historically Christians understood it that way?
As I quoted from Bible,Jesus also didn't want to give any mirracles to them.
So, that can give a clue, that when the Bible is talking about raising people from dead, it should be taken spiritually. Otherwise, how could Jesus say, no Miracles shall be given, and still He gave?
1robin
Christian/Baptist
As I said I was trying to reduce the amount of stuff and this didn't matter. I guess there is no escape. Jesus was God, prophet, healer, teacher etc.... Moses was a prophet who was made similar to a God not God. Here is the actual verse.
New Living Translation (©2007)
Then the LORD said to Moses, "Pay close attention to this. I will make you seem like God to Pharaoh, and your brother, Aaron, will be your prophet
Exodus 7:1 Then the LORD said to Moses, "See, I have made you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother Aaron will be your prophet.
There is nothing in these verses to get that Moses actually became God. Since anything made by God is not God it is impossible for Moses to be God.
Here is a very respected commentary. None of the ones I have read say that Moses was God neither does the verse so why are you?
Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
I have made thee a god to Pharaoh; not a god by nature, but made so; he was so by commission and office, clothed with power and authority from God to act under him in all things he should direct; not for ever, as angels are gods, but for a time; not in an ordinary way, as magistrates are gods, but in an extraordinary manner; and not to any other but to Pharaoh, being an ambassador of God to him, and as in his room and stead to, rule over him, though so great a monarch; to command him what he should do, and control him when he did wrong, and punish him for his disobedience, and inflict such plagues upon him, and do such miracles before him, as no mere man of himself, and none but God can do; and even exercise the power of life and death, as in the slaying of the firstborn, that Pharaoh should stand in as much fear of him, as if he was a deity, and apply to him to remove the plagues upon him, as if he was one:
Here is another:
Wesley's Notes
7:1 I have made thee a god to Pharaoh - That is, my representative in this affair, as magistrates are called gods, because they are God's vicegerents. He was authorized to speak and act in God's name, and endued with a divine power, to do that which is above the ordinary course of nature. And Aaron shall be thy prophet - That is, he shall speak from thee to Pharaoh, as prophets do from God to the children of men. Thou shalt as a god inflict and remove the plagues, and Aaron as a prophet shall denounce them.
I said it didn't matter because even if Moses was God which he wasn't he still performed many many miracles (by God's power) and did unimaginable things. So his claim to divinity (which he never made) would still be reasonable unlike Bahá'u'lláh who did not part the red sea, did not bring plagues on egypt, did not speak directly to God, and did not make water come from a rock etc... So as I said Moses never was God but even his claim is far more attested if he did.
Good Lord. In Lazerus' case he was in his tomb in grave clothes.
Here are the verses: John 11
38 Jesus, once more deeply moved, came to the tomb. It was a cave with a stone laid across the entrance. 39 Take away the stone, he said.
But, Lord, said Martha, the sister of the dead man, by this time there is a bad odor, for he has been there four days.
40 Then Jesus said, Did I not tell you that if you believe, you will see the glory of God?
41 So they took away the stone. Then Jesus looked up and said, Father, I thank you that you have heard me. 42 I knew that you always hear me, but I said this for the benefit of the people standing here, that they may believe that you sent me.
43 When he had said this, Jesus called in a loud voice, Lazarus, come out! 44 The dead man came out, his hands and feet wrapped with strips of linen, and a cloth around his face.
Jesus said to them, Take off the grave clothes and let him go.
John 11 NIV - The Death of Lazarus - Now a man named - Bible Gateway
They do not put people in tombs if they are spiritually sick. He was wearing grave clothes. There is no spiritual reference in any of these verses. It is physical from start to finish. Jesus even uses the common term they used for physical death (sleep as in until the resurrection) We are all born spiritually dead and yes Christ makes us spiritually alive when we are born again. This has happened to me and bears no resembelance to anything in these verses.
Since I imagine you will stubbornly refuse to accept this I will examine another one. In the case of Jairus' daughter. The story starts with this:
40 Now when Jesus returned, a crowd welcomed him, for they were all expecting him. 41 Then a man named Jairus, a synagogue leader, came and fell at Jesus feet, pleading with him to come to his house 42 because his only daughter, a girl of about twelve, was dying.
Luke 8:40-56 NIV - Jesus Raises a Dead Girl and Heals a - Bible Gateway
It continues with an unrelated but completely physical healing of a women with a specific bleeding problem.
Then picks up again here:
49 While Jesus was still speaking, someone came from the house of Jairus, the synagogue leader. Your daughter is dead, he said. Dont bother the teacher anymore. 51 When he arrived at the house of Jairus, he did not let anyone go in with him except Peter, John and James, and the childs father and mother. 52 Meanwhile, all the people were wailing and mourning for her. Stop wailing, Jesus said. She is not dead but asleep.53 They laughed at him, knowing that she was dead. 54 But he took her by the hand and said, My child, get up! 55 Her spirit returned, and at once she stood up. Then Jesus told them to give her something to eat. 56 Her parents were astonished, but he ordered them not to tell anyone what had happened.
Luke 8:40-56 NIV - Jesus Raises a Dead Girl and Heals a - Bible Gateway
As you hopefully can see a physical interpretation is the only one. Since you will probably not see the obvious I will illustrate it. Problems with your interpretation.
1.When we first hear about the girl she is dying and is described in a physical manner. 2.There is no such thing as someone spiritually dieing. We are born spiritually dead and stay that way forever or we are made spiritually alive forever by accepting Christ. 3. As this girl is under the age of accountability she couldn't be dieing spiritualy anyway. 4. They later come and tell Jesus she is dead. Did she spiritually die in the intermitent few minutes. That makes no sence and is impossible. 5. They then say that she has died and so do not bother Jesus. Since they could not detect her specific sipritual condition then this makes no sence for your view. 6. Jesus says she is not dead but asleep. Now is sleep closer to physical death or spiritual death. Problems with a literal interpretation = 0
I can go on but if this doesn't do it nothing would.
As is well known he is the most famous miracle worker by far in history there is no way even you can claim he didn't do any. His statement was directed to the scribes and Pharasees. They had continually tested and tried him and he was fed up with their crap. That is why he did so many miracles with the common man but not for the officials. However the officials would definately be aware of his miracle of Jonah because they were involved.
I can because you have an incorrect conclusion based on a missunderstanding that concerns an incorrect interpretation. If you knew the bible well you would know he was addressing different groups at different times. Some he did miracles for and some he refused. This obvious and well known conclusion shows the bible retains it's harmony that your strange interpretation destroys. I can't straighten out every missconception you have concerning the bible so please do me a favor before you make any more unorthedox and biblically inconsistent claims go to these sites below and look at the verses and the major commentators they give vastly more rational explenations and have infinately more knowledge than you and could clear up all these missconceptions if you do this and still have an issue then by all means ask me but your cliams are not just wrong but so unbelievably wrong that I can't spend the required time to explain them all.
Biblos.com: Search, Read, Study the Bible in Many Languages
BibleGateway.com: A searchable online Bible in over 100 versions and 50 languages.
They are both very comprehensive and respected sites and can even give you the original language and definitions for the words of the original verses. If you actually desire the truth you will check these sites before you conclude things.
FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
أَوَمَنْ كَانَ مَيْتًا فَأَحْيَيْنَاهُ وَجَعَلْنَا لَهُ نُورًا يَمْشِي بِهِ فِي النَّاسِ كَمَنْ مَثَلُهُ فِي الظُّلُمَاتِ لَيْسَ بِخَارِجٍ مِنْهَا كَذَٰلِكَ زُيِّنَ لِلْكَافِرِينَ مَا كَانُوا يَعْمَلُونَ
Can he, who was dead, then We gave him life and made for him a light whereby he walks among men, be like him whose condition is that he is in utter darkness whence he cannot come forth? Thus have the doings of the disbelievers been made to seem fair to them. (122)
the vesre is a comparison between the lost person who got astray as living in full darkness and the other one who can see and follow the light,both are similar,came from death to life,but one chose to live in darkness and being lost and the other one chose to live with the light.
وَمَا يَسْتَوِي الْأَعْمَىٰ وَالْبَصِيرُ
For [thus it is:] the blind and the seeing are not equal; (19)
وَلَا الظُّلُمَاتُ وَلَا النُّورُ
nor are the depths of darkness and the light; (20)
وَلَا الظِّلُّ وَلَا الْحَرُورُ
nor the [cooling] shade and the scorching heat: (21)
وَمَا يَسْتَوِي الْأَحْيَاءُ وَلَا الْأَمْوَاتُ إِنَّ اللَّهَ يُسْمِعُ مَنْ يَشَاءُ وَمَا أَنْتَ بِمُسْمِعٍ مَنْ فِي الْقُبُورِ
and neither are equal the living and the dead . Behold, [O Muhammad,] God can make hear whomever He wills, whereas thou canst not make hear such as are in their graves: (22)
Verse from 19 upto 22 are comparison between what is good and what is bad
in verse 19,seeing is for sure better than blind,they aren't equal
in verse 20,light is better than darkness,they aren't equal
in verse 21,cooling shade is better than being in scorching heat,they aren't equal
living body is better than the dead one,they aren't equal.
That is a comparison between who chose to live with faith and the opposite one who chose to live in astray,between what is good and what is bad
يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا اسْتَجِيبُوا لِلَّهِ وَلِلرَّسُولِ إِذَا دَعَاكُمْ لِمَا يُحْيِيكُمْ وَاعْلَمُوا أَنَّ اللَّهَ يَحُولُ بَيْنَ الْمَرْءِ وَقَلْبِهِ وَأَنَّهُ إِلَيْهِ تُحْشَرُونَ
O you who have attained to faith! Respond to the call of God and the Apostle whenever he calls you unto that which will give you life; and know that God intervenes between man and [the desires of] his heart, and that unto Him you shall be gathered. (24)
The verse is clear,is to follow god and his messenger's guidance,otherwise you'll follow your heart desires,rejecting your heart desires makes you alive that you can control such desires by god guidance.
i'll see the other verses after your comments
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InvestigateTruth
Well-Known Member
FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
Yes, very good.
I agree.
Thank you
The other verses say
وَالَّذِينَ يَدْعُونَ مِنْ دُونِ اللَّهِ لَا يَخْلُقُونَ شَيْئًا وَهُمْ يُخْلَقُونَ
And those they call upon, apart from God, created nothing, and themselves are created, (20)
That verse are saying that whoever you worship aside from god is himself created by god and can creat nothing,one example is Jesus pbuh whom regarded to some as god,but the real fact that he is created by god and he (Jesus pbuh) can creat nothing.
إِلَٰهُكُمْ إِلَٰهٌ وَاحِدٌ فَالَّذِينَ لَا يُؤْمِنُونَ بِالْآخِرَةِ قُلُوبُهُمْ مُنْكِرَةٌ وَهُمْ مُسْتَكْبِرُونَ
Your God is One God. And they who believe not in the world to come, their hearts deny, and they have waxed proud. (22)
Also the verse is clear which says that god is only one and the hearts of the disbelievers refuse to believe in the hereafter,because faith should be in our hearts,but their hearts deny it because of the lack of faith and for bieng arrogant.
فَإِنَّكَ لَا تُسْمِعُ الْمَوْتَىٰ وَلَا تُسْمِعُ الصُّمَّ الدُّعَاءَ إِذَا وَلَّوْا مُدْبِرِينَ
So verily thou canst not make the dead to hear, nor canst thou make the deaf to hear the call, when they show their backs and turn away. (30:52)
The disbelievers,whatever you try to convince them,they won't hear you,as if you are talking to a dead or a deaf person,both can't hear.
InvestigateTruth
Well-Known Member
Yes, God made Moses to be like a God to People.
But the same is true about Jesus.
This is why Jesus said, Father is greater than Him.
He also said:
John 5:37 "And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. "
So, Jesus was sent by Father. He is making a clear distinction between God, and Himself.
He also said:
6:39 "And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing"
So, all these means, Jesus was a perfect image of God, but still not God Himself. So, He was also like God.
Regarding the Miracles of Moses and Jesus they all have figurative meaning. They are symbolic.
Messengers are not magicians.
It is in old testament that God grants miracles to false prophets to test people.
Jesus also said, no Miracles shall be given to this generation.
Generation does not mean only scribes or Pharisees. But all people living in His time.
But please note that, Bible uses the term grave, and cloth as symbolic terms. for example:
Matt. 23 Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs..."
8:6 ....."jealousy is cruel as the grave"
Psalms 38:17 Behold, for peace I had great bitterness: but thou hast in love to my soul delivered it from the pit of corruption: for thou hast cast all my sins behind thy back.
So, the grave and tomb have symbolic meanings. It is grave of error, gealousy, corruption. So Lazerus was in the grave of error, unbelief, corruption...
For the clothe, also is used elsewhere as a symbolic term. For example:
Isa. 61:10 "I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness"
So, when Jesus is saying take off your grave clothe, He means, take off the clothe of error and corruption, and instead wear the clothe of salvation.
All these mean, he was spiritually dead, spiritually sick. he was asleep.
asleep is also another figurative term, which means "unaware of truth"
This is an example:
Rom. 13:11 "And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed. "
So, it means Lazerus was asleep, unaware and ignorant of truth.
The scripture in the case of Lazerus, does not say anybody put him in grave.
It says, He was asleep, dead, then Jesus raised him from grave [of error].
There are other parts of Bible which also says, dead was raised to life.
See:
Luke 15:24 "For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry."
Miracles are not proofs. As I mentioned, false prophets are given power to do miracles by God, as a test.
In the case of raising from dead, I made it clear its meanings. But for example a false prophet can go and tell his friends Mr. X, to pretend that he is sick. Then a few days later, Mr. X and his family spread the news that he died. Then they make a fake grave with holes so air can flow in. then Mr. X wears his cloth of grave and lays down in the fake grave. Then the false prophet brings people to witness. Then you know the rest.
So, the point is, miracles have no uses as a proof. The real proof is the power to guide humanity.
This is why Jesus said: It is more difficult to forgive sins than raising a sick or dead person
What He meant is, it is more difficult to guide a person to the right path, so he would avoid sins, than performing magic shows!
So, even if Jesus did give the life of a person back, what's the point? that person eventually died.
InvestigateTruth
Well-Known Member
Baha'u'llah did not have any religious education, yet He had perfect knowledge.
I didn't say He is God. It is related to the subject, because you are saying, Jesus came from Hevean, so He is God, but Baha'u'llah in your view did not come from Heaven.
Elijah according to the Bible had to come down from heaven, because he ascended to heaven. So, according to your logic, Elijah was also God.
Jesus was also born from Mary. So according to your logic, Jesus also didn't come from heaven?
Moreover, Adam neither had father or Mother, so, according to your logic, He was God too? or maybe superiour to Jesus?
So what? There are many people who never get married, are they God too?
Jesus was also Son of Man. He ate food. He slept like everyone else.
and if you say He was special because He didn't have a Father, as I said, Adam also didn't have Father and Mother. and If you say He was special because, He came dow from heaven, as I showed you, Elijah must have come down from Heaven too.
Moreover, Jesus said "Son of Man is in Heavean" when He was on earth. So, Heaven is not sky, or a place as you imagine. It must be a spirtual reality, otherwise how could Jesus say He is heaven, eventhough He was on earth at that time?
You still don't know almost anything about Baha'u'llah's mission and station.
You still haven't been able to show any contradictory.
The evidence becomes clear to you, be patient.
So what? Being respectable scholar does not make them infallible with regards to interpretations of the Bible.
Moreover, the Book says, it is sealed till the end of time, and the christ on His return would tell the true interpretations, which offcourse, Baha'u'llah, the return of Christ's Spirit, unsealed the Book
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1robin
Christian/Baptist
No it isn't. Jesus existed forever moses did not. Jesus could forgive sin (as only God can) Moses could not. Moses was kept out of the promised land because he sinned. Jesus never sinned. Moses died and is still buried. Jesus rose and is at the right hand of God.
No it isn't. Jesus said this because he was in a volunarily deminished role. He lowered himself for his earthly ministry. That is why he could say if you have seen him you have seen the father.
Since Jesus was supposed to be a role model for us he did many things for that purpose only. The bible is full of actions he took where he even says that he didn't need to do this or that but because he was to set the example he did them anyway. There is even one in the story of Lazerus.
He is a distinct person but a memeber of the same being.
He also said:
That means once we are saved (born again) he will never loose us and he will raise us up on the last day.
Nope, you have a dreadfull missunderstanding of scripture.
This is rediculous. Did Pharo let the Jews go because Moses sent a symbolic plague? Did moses give the thirsty Jews water in the desert? Did he feed 400,000 people starving people in the desert with symbolic quail? Were they following a symbolic pillar of fire? Did they walk through the middle of a symbolic red sea? This is pathetic.
In other words your prophet never did any miracles or anything else so you must distort other religions scripture to claim they didn't either.
This is nuts. Even if he did which he didn't he never raised any of them from the dead like he did with Christ. It was done specifically to show that yes God sent him and his message. That also explains why your prophet is still in the grave. That explains why you have had to invent this apostles and Jonah garbage.
New Living Translation (©2007)
And remember, when you are being tempted, do not say, "God is tempting me." God is never tempted to do wrong, and he never tempts anyone else.
James 1:13 When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone;
The original word translated as tempted here is the same one as tested "peirazō" .
Quote the scripture that contains the words above.
1. He did countless miracles.
2. The Pharisees were asking specifically for more and better signs to taunt him.
3. He said this to the Pharisees.
4. Your wrong.
Yes the bible uses these termas sybolically at times. The rules developed by Hebrew and new testament scribes and scholars over a thousand years ago and have stood the test of time are that all scripture is literal unles a liter interpretation cannot be accepted.
Let's look at this story in detail in the next post, there is too many things to correct to do it in one.
i havent had a chance to read all 52 pages, but if EVERY copy of EVERY book EVER written and EVERY computer/memory stick/internet was all gathered up and thrown into the sea...what is the ONE book that would/could be re-written WORD for WORD (from memory, by thousands of people)...yes it is the holy Qur'an...there is a reason for that...word for word my friend..!
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1robin
Christian/Baptist
Quote the scripture where it says "of error in it". Not one verse or one commentary contains this. You just made it up.
Here is what it actually says: Keep in mind that Jesus stayed with Mary and Martha many times before. Lazarus was a believer and Jesus loved him. Also keep in mind John was written in Kione Greek (the most descriptive language in human history).
The Death of Lazarus
11 Now a certain man was sick, Lazarus of Bethany, the town of Mary and her sister Martha. 3 Therefore the sisters sent to Him, saying, Lord, behold, he whom You love is sick. The Greek word here is astheneō It means
1) to be weak, feeble, to be without strength, powerless
8 The disciples said to Him, Rabbi, lately the Jews sought to stone You, and are You going there again?
11 These things He said, and after that He said to them, Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up. This word is koimaō
1) to cause to sleep, put to sleep
2) metaph.
a) to still, calm, quiet
b) to fall asleep, to sleep
c) to die
None of these have any symbolic meaning.
12 Then His disciples said, Lord, if he sleeps he will get well. 13 However, Jesus spoke of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about taking rest in sleep. thanatos and it means:
1) the death of the body
a) that separation (whether natural or violent) of the soul and the body by which the life on earth is ended
This word has other less used symbolic meanings but the literal interpretation is the most used by far, but look what happens next.
14 Then Jesus said to them plainly, Lazarus is dead. 15 And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, that you may believe. Nevertheless let us go to him. He had to be emphatic here because the desciples didn't understand so he used a very descriptive word: The Greek here is apothnēskō
1) to die
a) of the natural death of man
16 Then Thomas, who is called the Twin, said to his fellow disciples, Let us also go, that we may die with Him. The same word is used for death here. It is obvious when they said death they meant Physical death because it is linked to their own stoning.
17 So when Jesus came, He found that he had already been in the tomb four days. 19 And many of the Jews had joined the women around Martha and Mary, to comfort them concerning their brother. The word for tomb used here in the Greek is mnēmeion and it means
1) any visible object for preserving or recalling the memory of any person or thing
a) a memorial, monument, specifically, a sepulchral monument
2) a sepulchre, a tomb
Greek is so descriptive that they could have easily chosen the accurate words to show the symbolic nature if that was what was inteneded. As it is every word used for death, grave, tomb has a literal application.
20 Now Martha, as soon as she heard that Jesus was coming, went and met Him, but Mary was sitting in the house. 21 Now Martha said to Jesus, Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died.
Here it is thnēskō. Defined as:
1) to die, to be dead
2) metaph. to be spiritually dead
Since by the rules of biblical exegesis we chose the literal meaning unless it could not apply then we have physical death again because there is no reason it can't apply and it is the most used definition and also is consistent with the rest of the verses in this event.
24 Martha said to Him, I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
25 Jesus said to her, I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. 26And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this? This reference to the final ressurection links this with being raised at the end times. Since our spiritual condition at that time is permanent and fixed then this is referring to a physical ressurection not spiritual.
27 She said to Him, Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.
31 Then the Jews who were with her in the house, and comforting her, when they saw that Mary rose up quickly and went out, followed her, saying, She is going to the tomb to weep there.[c] Which is more likely that she went to a physical tomb and wept (just like millions of others). Or that she went to a symbolic tomb.
32 Then, when Mary came where Jesus was, and saw Him, she fell down at His feet, saying to Him, Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died. Same word used here apothnēskō which means natural death.
33 Therefore, when Jesus saw her weeping, and the Jews who came with her weeping, He groaned in the spirit and was troubled. 34 And He said, Where have you laid him? Why are they laying him in a tomb if we are talking spiritual death. Also "they" laid him there which you said didn't exist in these verses. Your words: (it does not say anybody put him in grave)
37 And some of them said, Could not this Man, who opened the eyes of the blind, also have kept this man from dying? Same word used here. And it is compared to another miracle where Jesus healed a literally blind man by applying mud to his eyes.
38 Then Jesus, again groaning in Himself, came to the tomb. It was a cave, and a stone lay against it. 39 Jesus said, Take away the stone. Both cave and stone are physical descriptions of a material cave. The words used denote a physical only definition in the Greek.
Martha, the sister of him who was dead, said to Him, Lord, by this time there is a stench, for he has been dead four days. The word used for stench here is ozō and it means
1) to give out an odour (either good or bad), to smell, emit a smell
a) of a decaying corpse
The four days is very important because the Jews declared someone finally dead after 3 days of physical death. The point here was to show that yes he was physically dead and Jesus ressurected him and he did not just revive. That has no spiritual symbolic application.
41 Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead man was lying.[d] Why are they removing a literal stone used to close literal tombs?
42 And I know that You always hear Me, but because of the people who are standing by I said this, that they may believe that You sent Me. 43 Since the immediate results from a spiritual birth or "healing" are not apparent to onlookers then what are they discussing here? A physical ressurection is apparent and fits perfectly. Now when He had said these things, He cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth! The word used here is exō. It means
1) without, out of doors
That means come out of your physical tomb.
44 And he who had died came out bound hand and foot with graveclothes, and his face was wrapped with a cloth. Jesus said to them, Loose him, and let him go.
This is refering to physical bounds that were commonly used in Hebrew burial. He is certainly not telling Mary and Martha to remove his spiritual bounds.
John 11 NKJV - The Death of Lazarus - Now a certain - Bible Gateway
All the bolding is mine or came from: http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G3605&t=KJV
I have only covered a few reasons why a symbolic interpretation is absurd. I could keep going but if after this you still insist on a spiritual meaning then you are driven by something other than logic and reason and it would be a waste of time. I had trouble trying to understand why you are so desperately trying to force symbolism of literal verses and after prayer it finally hit me. Since your prophet didn't do anything like this and so does not rise to the biblical level of a prophet you have had to distort scripture in order to reduce biblical prophets to your level. I had asked you to look into original languages and commentary before you made any other false interpretations. As can be seen from above you must not have bothered with either site I gave you the links for.
Selah
1robin
Christian/Baptist
The Quran hasn't ever been consistently written word for word ever, some of it dissapeared forever in the battles that followed Muhammad's being poisoned. Even if it was it is full of errors. Their were and may still be entire classes devoted to transmitting the bible word for word (even though it isn't perfect) and it has a more reliable textual tradition than any book of ancient history by a long shot.
1robin
Christian/Baptist
Another claim to knowledge without any proof whatever. As ignorant as Baha'u'llah was he was far more familiar with theology than the old testemant prophets were. They raised the dead, cured the sick, and cowered Pharoh. They didn't just sit around and write a bunch of flowery philosophy.
Jesus divinity was his spirit not the body he had on earth. His spirit had existed for eternity. Through him everything was made and apart from him nothing was made. So Jesus created Baha'u'llah but yet Jesus was uncreated. If that doesn't put things in order nothing will.
First of all the principle you are talking about isn't mine. Second this still doesn't help Baha'u'llah. Thirdly you are butchering more scripture. The actual verse says:
New Living Translation (©2007)
No one has ever gone to heaven and returned. But the Son of Man has come down from heaven.
That means no one up until that time has went to heaven and came back.
Some commentators add:
Barnes' Notes on the Bible
And no man hath ascended into heavens - No man, therefore, is qualified to speak of heavenly things, John 3:12. To speak of those things requires intimate acquaintance with them - demands that we have seen them; and as no one has ascended into heaven and returned, so no one is qualified to speak of them but He who came down from heaven. This does not mean that no one had Gone to heaven or had been saved, for Enoch and Elijah had been borne (taken) there (Genesis 5:24; compare Hebrews 11:5; 2 Kings 2:11); and Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and others were there: but it means that no one had ascended and "returned," so as to be qualified to speak of the things there
John 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man.
There is also an applicable note to add here: The place those prophets went is not the heaven that will exist in the end. It is more accurately paradise the temporary place where redeemed souls stay until the end when heaven is established on the earth.
Here is a whole site dedicated to this topic: Elijah, Enoch, and Moses
What logic are you talking about?. Jesus got his earthly non-devine body from Mary who concieved BY THE HOLY SPIRIT (that is his son of man nature). He always had his devine spirit (son of God nature) and permitted himself to exist in a carnal body. Baha'u'llah was just another person no devine anything. He was born and concieved just we all are.
What logic is it you are referring to? I never laid out any rigid guidelines. I do not need to. Baha'u'llah does not measure up to any resonable standard. While Adam was no God he was a type of Christ. However he did not exist eternally and was completely non-devine and carnal.
No you showed me a lack of scriptural understanding about Elijah. I didn't say Baha'u'llah was not God because he got married three times (I will say that the bible says divorce is a sin, and God wouldn't sin so if he was divorced then he isn't God but that is a side issue). I was saying his being married three times unless his wives died is evidence that he is just as fallable as everyone else and is not God. Jesus' devine nature needed neither food, sleep, marraige, nor anything else. He ate and drank because he was to suffer what we suffer and live as we live but his divine nature is evident because he never came into existance, nor did he ever sin, he performed countless supernatural miracles, and rose from the dead. There is nothing in Baha'u'llah's nature that gives any indecation of his divinity.
This is easy JESUS NEVER SAID THE SON OF MAN IS IN HEAVEN. What bible are you reading. This is the closest to it:
New International Version (©1984)
"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory
That has nothing to do with what you said.
The more I learn the less he looks like anything but a false prophet so maybe it is best I don't learn any more.
I assume everything you have said about the bible is consistent with your religion and I know without doubt that the majority of what you have said has been completely contradictory with the bible so your own words are my evidence.
What? The more evidence you provide the worse yourr case gets. You would have been better off to leave the bible alone and just assert your religion as your take on the bible is abysimal.
Quote the statement I said where I said they are infallable. Respected commentators most who have been around for hundreds of years (in fact we have commentaries much older than your religion) and have been studied by countless scholars and have stood up are of infinate more value than your interpretations that even I can see are completely wrong without much research. Since you refuse to even research your views I can gather that you have no interest in the truth but only whatever makes your religion seem more likely.
You mean this:Moreover, the Book says, it is sealed till the end of time, and the christ on His return would tell the true interpretations, which offcourse, Baha'u'llah, the return of Christ's Spirit, unsealed the Book
New International Version (©1984)
He replied, "Go your way, Daniel, because the words are closed up and sealed until the time of the end
First it says until the time of the end, not the end of time. That means that since we are living in the last days then we understand what it is in the book. Second the book is only the book of Daniel not the rest of the bible which was written later. Once again you are just making up stuff that makes Baha 'i look better. This verse is true because only relatively recently have the prophecies in Daniel been understood. Even recent most of them came before Baha'u'llah and he has nothing to do with them. Also the HOLY SPIRIT that Christ sent will lead us into all truth and so we have no need of a Baha'u'llah (which explains how I became saved and on my way to heaven before I ever even heard of that guy). You remind me of a used car salesman who will say anything if it makes his position look better. If you go to those sites I gave you you will atleast not look as silly in the future by missinterpreting the bible so badly. I just can't understand the risking of your only soul on a religion that apparently requires the missenterpretation of other religions.
Peace out,
tumbleweed41
Resident Liberal Hippie
MOD POST
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Last chance.
8. Proselytizing
The forums were set up for the purpose of sharing and understanding other religions and faiths, by discussion and debate. It is not to be used for converting others to your own faith. Or to place links or copy material from elsewhere, intended for this purpose. Such posts will be edited or removed and subject to moderation.
Future Violations May Result in the Closure of this Thread