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Did Jesus really have to die for our sins?

idea

Question Everything
Now can you explain what baptism we are to be baptized with today to have eternal life?

Here is what the back of my scriptures states about baptism if it helps (It references both scriptures in the Bible, and the Book of Mormon, if you are not LDS you can just ignore the Mormon scriptures - the Biblical scriptures say the same things)
from link: http://www.lds.org/scriptures/bd/baptism.p1?lang=eng&letter=b

Baptism

Baptism. From a Greek word meaning to dip or immerse. Baptism in water is the introductory ordinance of the gospel, and must be followed by baptism of the Spirit in order to be complete. As one of the ordinances of the gospel, it is associated with faith in the Lord Jesus Christ, repentance, and the laying on hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost. Baptism has always been practiced whenever the gospel of Jesus Christ has been on the earth and has been taught by men holding the holy priesthood who could administer the ordinances. Although there is some obscurity in the Bible as to the antiquity of baptism before the time of Jesus, from latter-day revelation it is clear that Adam was baptized (Moses 6:64–68) and that the patriarchs and prophets since his time have taught the gospel and administered the ordinances that pertain to the gospel. This includes both water baptism and the laying on of hands for the Holy Ghost (Moses 8:23–24). The Book of Mormon shows also that baptism was taught and practiced long before the coming of Jesus Christ (2 Ne. 31; Mosiah 18:8–17). In the N.T. Paul speaks of the children of Israel being baptized by Moses “in the cloud and in the sea” (1 Cor. 10:1–4). Noah and Abraham are spoken of as “preachers of righteousness,” which means they taught the gospel and administered its ordinances (Gal. 3:8; Heb. 4:1–2; 2 Pet. 2:5; cf. Moses 8:23–24).
Baptism symbolizes death, burial, and resurrection, and can only be done by immersion. It is clear that John the Baptist and Philip baptized in that manner (Matt. 3:16; Acts 8:37–39; Rom. 6:1–6; Col. 2:12; D&C 20:72–74; 128:12–13). Any other method is not baptism.


We learn from latter-day revelation, which confirms the teaching in the Bible, that the Aaronic Priesthood has authority to baptize with water, whereas the Melchizedek Priesthood has power to baptize not only with water, but also to confer the Holy Ghost (D&C 13; JS—H 1:68–72). We note also that John the Baptist, who had the Aaronic Priesthood, recognized this distinction and used it to illustrate one of the differences between his mission and the mission of Jesus, who had the priesthood of Melchizedek (Matt. 3:11; Mark 1:8; Luke 3:15–16; John 1:25–33; cf. Acts 8:5–25).
Baptism is not optional if one wishes the fullness of salvation. Jesus said a person must be born of water and of the Spirit (John 3:3–5). When he sent the twelve apostles forth to teach the gospel he told them that whosoever believed and was baptized would be saved; and whosoever did not believe would be damned (Mark 16:16). Jesus himself was baptized “to fulfil all righteousness” (Matt. 3:15; 2 Ne. 31:4–11). But the Pharisees, being unwilling to accept the gospel, “rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized” (Luke 7:30).
Baptism in water has several purposes. It is for the remission of sins, for membership in the Church, and for entrance into the celestial kingdom; it is also the doorway to personal sanctification when followed by the reception of the Holy Ghost.


The age at which baptism should be administered is not specified in the Bible, although it is evident that candidates were to be old enough to be capable of belief and have some understanding. In latter-day revelation we learn that the Lord has set the age at eight years as the time when a person begins to become accountable and can be baptized (D&C 20:71; 68:25–28). This was also the age given in O.T. times (JST Gen. 17:11).


Baptism is a most sacred ordinance, which a person, having received it, can remember throughout life as a reminder of the personal commitment to Jesus Christ. Its symbolism is beautiful, and its consequences ever so desirable. John the Baptist had the signal honor among all men to take the Son of God into the water and baptize him, after which he saw the Holy Ghost descend upon Jesus. By being baptized Jesus obeyed the law himself, and set the example for all mankind. See also Confirmation; John the Baptist; Laying on of hands.
 
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sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
So you WOULD stone a disobedient daughter?

I don't really think you even understand half the conversations you're in. You just want to disagree, for the disagreements sake. It's too bad really, because in other conversations you occasionally who some insight [even head-to-head with other Christians], but when you respond to me, basically your undershorts drop around your ankles and you fall down any nearby flight of steps.
You really have no clue, do you!
I said that cherrypicking occurs when one picks and chooses from the Bible which one sees as having ultimate authority and infallibility. Since I don't remotely view the Bible in that way (the bible is not the "ultimate authority," nor is it infallible), cherrypicking is not on my list of "things to do today."

Those laws are ancient, written for another people in another time and place, and do not apply to me. The fact that I don't stone my daughter has nothing to do with cherrypicking. It has everything to do with recognizing the texts (and the directives written therein) for what they are -- not for what someone might wish them to be, and with recognizing that my actions are not dictated by the letter of the law, but by the spirit of God.

You know, if you'd stop insisting that everyone view the Bible and Xy the way you want them to, maybe you'd figure out that I'm the one making sense here.
 

roberto

Active Member
The first baptism to prepare a people for Jesus, was by John's baptism!

I have a search bible and the blue letter bible and I know about the tribes of Israel and how they came about, they were the children of Jacab! But that doesn't explain to me what you meant by your statement "part of the 12 tribes". That would have to come from you for me to have understanding to what you were referring to.

Now can you explain what baptism we are to be baptized with today to have eternal life?

Connie, there is a cleansing as in/with soap in the "old testament and then there is a cleansing as in ritual bath/purification.
Now go check the "old testament" where women/men/priests were to ritually purify themselves by having a mikveh/mikvah.

Today they have ritual baths in Israel where for instance women would go to every month to purify themselves after niddah.

But I am sure one only needs to be "babtized" once with reference with what Yeshua did by going through the grave. You are basically symbolically dying to sin.

But yes if in time to come we have to go up to the new temple in Israel, we would have to ritually purify ourselves by "taking" a "cleansing"
.
 
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Connie, there is a cleansing as in/with soap in the "old testament and then there is a cleansing as in ritual bath/purification.
Now go check the "old testament" where women/men/priests were to ritually purify themselves by having a mikveh/mikvah.

Today they have ritual baths in Israel where for instance women would go to every month to purify themselves after niddah.

But I am sure one only needs to be "babtized" once with reference with what Yeshua did by going through the grave. You are basically symbolically dying to sin.

But yes if in time to come we have to go up to the new temple in Israel, we would have to ritually purify ourselves by "taking" a "cleansing"

.

I am not trying be disrespectful, but when I joined this group I did not realize that there would be people from other countries and with faiths other then from the written word of God. But I have most respect to you all! My faith in Christ comes from reading and searching the scriptures from the Bible, which I believe to be the word of God and can give one eternal life by being obedient to the word of God.

By this you are saying: [But yes if in time to come we have to go up to the new temple in Israel, we would have to ritually purify ourselves by "taking" a "cleansing" ],
There will be a new Jerusalem on earth when Christ comes back the second time. Is this correct? You guys have a building ready for this event?

Yes, I believe the scriptures teach dying to sin, (Romans 6). Meaning that we deny our old way of living, and walk by the word of God, which requires us to be born again by water and the Spirit (the word of God), (John 3:5). Our being (the part of man that does the thinking) is mortal, we have lust of the flesh, we become dead to lust of the flesh, and be obedient to the word of God.
 

F0uad

Well-Known Member
If someone agrees to pay money on/in your stead for debt , then that person has taken the burden of debt on him/herself.
The Father defined in the "old testament" that sin should be paid for in blood, not so ?[That is avon and hatat sin]
The Sota definition in the "old testament" of what happens to a wayward/whoring bride describes what the Messiah came to do.
The Messiah paid the "price" on "our" behalf and by dying he can/could now marry his wayward/whoring bride[Northern tribes] again.

Woow Lol! :rolleyes:

"our"behalf"> [Northern tribes and their sojourners] That is why I call myself a sojourner to 10 Israel.
I might add that there is no attonement for Pessa sin. Pessa sin according to Torah requires death penalty. [That is why the Messiah had to die on our behalf]
Now why do we still pray for forgiveness of sin ? Because those sins are the first two sins meantioned > Avon and hatat sins.]
Hope that helps.
Please note : The Messiah was not sent for Judah/the Jews.

It doesn't if its not in your teachings that Jesus(p) died for your sins ignore it.
.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Can please someone answer my question??
If Jesus(p) is god and he took your sins as his burden, then hes soul took the burden since the soul carries the burden. Now according to the biblical teachings a soul cannot die but lets say in sack of argument hes soul did die, then God died and if hes soul didn't die the burdens are still there.
A good explanation please..
Now that I understand what you are asking maybe I can give a satisfactory answer: I need to restate the definitions for death again they will be important:
1. Physical death.
2. Spiritual death or separation from God.
I believe the problem is that you are and the bible are using these definitions out of sync with each other. I am not sure where you think the bible says that the "soul" cannot die. The Greek word for the English word soul is "psuche". The Hebrew word that is translated as soul is "nephesh". In neither case is the English word the perfect translation of the original word. This has led to some confusion. However both words in the bible still allow the "soul" to die.
Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul (heb. Nephesh) of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul (Heb Nephesh) that sinneth, it shall die. Ezek 18:4
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matt 10:28
Man Became a Living Soul - Is the Human Soul Immortal?
Both these verses originally used one each of the two words above in the original. So we can see that the bible allows the soul to die.
But what do they mean by die. The answer is the second death. The second death is referred to as separation from God. This has two different states depending on time. For now it means the soul is not in fellowship with God. The next phase of the second death is strictly taken from my interpretation of the bible. After the judgment it may be that what verse Math 10:28 is saying is that hell and it's occupants are destroyed. What that means is not exactly known. I believe the confusion comes from your assigning the characteristics of the first death to the second. Jesus' soul is not destroyed as the physical body is. He didn't cease to exist. He was separated from the father. I don't know what scriptures you think there are that say the soul can't die. If they exist they cannot be referring to this second death because they would contradict the verses above as well as many more. If they exist then they must mean the soul does not die by definition one above. They do not cease to exist when the body physically dies. However they can die as in definition 2 (the second death) and it may be that they are eventually completely destroyed all together (this last idea is my interpretation only)

This was your dilemma:
If Jesus(p) is god and he took your sins as his burden, then his soul took the burden since the soul carries the burden.
Now according to the biblical teachings a soul cannot die but let’s say in sack of argument his soul did die, then God died and if his soul didn't die the burdens are still there.

Actually as you can see above the soul can die. There are many other verses that say the same thing. It is a Christian tradition that the soul is immortal but that is wrong (and is not scriptural) and was probably borrowed from Greek paganism. When the bible says the soul can die it means one and possibly two things. 1. It means it is separated from God (second death). 2. It possibly means that at some point in the future it will eventually be destroyed along with hell.
So Jesus's soul could die (be separated from God). However that is not to say Jesus ceased to exist as in Death definition 1. You might then ask how Jesus got back in fellowship with God. Since he himself had no sin then nothing prevented the Father from reestablishing the former relationship he had. Sin separates us from God; Jesus had no sins of his own so he could be reunited when the father chose to do so
.

You are including the first definition with the second. Jesus did die spiritually but that does not mean he ceased to exist it means he was separated from the father.

I hope this addressed what you were having trouble with if it didn't tell me where specifically you still are having a problem. You cannot reject things in the bible because you don't understand them but you can if they are inconsistent with each other. This one pushed it a little but I don't see any actually contradictions here. This has been the hardest issue to research that you have given so far.




 

Heathen Hammer

Nope, you're still wrong
You really have no clue, do you!
I'm sorry. Does busting your nonsense = 'not having a clue'?

I said that cherrypicking occurs when one picks and chooses from the Bible which one sees as having ultimate authority and infallibility. Since I don't remotely view the Bible in that way (the bible is not the "ultimate authority," nor is it infallible), cherrypicking is not on my list of "things to do today."
Oh, is that what you actually said?

I was talking about most Christians. You list yourself as 'Celtic Christian', so that could mean anything. An easy out.

Given your statements sometimes you're not really Christian at all. But I wasn't arguing your personal deviant take on whatever you think Christianity means, I was speaking of the vast majority, and we both know this. Like I said: pants down.

Those laws are ancient, written for another people in another time and place, and do not apply to me. The fact that I don't stone my daughter has nothing to do with cherrypicking.
it would IF you claimed to follow the Bible. You don't. Others do. Im talking about them.


It has everything to do with recognizing the texts (and the directives written therein) for what they are -- not for what someone might wish them to be, and with recognizing that my actions are not dictated by the letter of the law, but by the spirit of God.
Oh, well wait. Personal recognition is so fluid that this is a non-argument.

We're not talking of person wiggle room. We're talking about what the text says, literally, in total.

It says 'kill your disobedient daughters via stoning.'

You know, if you'd stop insisting that everyone view the Bible and Xy the way you want them to, maybe you'd figure out that I'm the one making sense here.
Don't play so coy, it's embarrassing to see.
 

F0uad

Well-Known Member
Now that I understand what you are asking maybe I can give a satisfactory answer: I need to restate the definitions for death again they will be important:
1. Physical death.
2. Spiritual death or separation from God.
I believe the problem is that you are and the bible are using these definitions out of sync with each other. I am not sure where you think the bible says that the "soul" cannot die. The Greek word for the English word soul is "psuche". The Hebrew word that is translated as soul is "nephesh". In neither case is the English word the perfect translation of the original word. This has led to some confusion. However both words in the bible still allow the "soul" to die.
Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul (heb. Nephesh) of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul (Heb Nephesh) that sinneth, it shall die. Ezek 18:4
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matt 10:28
Man Became a Living Soul - Is the Human Soul Immortal?
Both these verses originally used one each of the two words above in the original. So we can see that the bible allows the soul to die.
But what do they mean by die. The answer is the second death. The second death is referred to as separation from God. This has two different states depending on time. For now it means the soul is not in fellowship with God. The next phase of the second death is strictly taken from my interpretation of the bible. After the judgment it may be that what verse Math 10:28 is saying is that hell and it's occupants are destroyed. What that means is not exactly known. I believe the confusion comes from your assigning the characteristics of the first death to the second. Jesus' soul is not destroyed as the physical body is. He didn't cease to exist. He was separated from the father. I don't know what scriptures you think there are that say the soul can't die. If they exist they cannot be referring to this second death because they would contradict the verses above as well as many more. If they exist then they must mean the soul does not die by definition one above. They do not cease to exist when the body physically dies. However they can die as in definition 2 (the second death) and it may be that they are eventually completely destroyed all together (this last idea is my interpretation only)

This was your dilemma:

Actually as you can see above the soul can die. There are many other verses that say the same thing. It is a Christian tradition that the soul is immortal but that is wrong (and is not scriptural) and was probably borrowed from Greek paganism. When the bible says the soul can die it means one and possibly two things. 1. It means it is separated from God (second death). 2. It possibly means that at some point in the future it will eventually be destroyed along with hell.
So Jesus's soul could die (be separated from God). However that is not to say Jesus ceased to exist as in Death definition 1. You might then ask how Jesus got back in fellowship with God. Since he himself had no sin then nothing prevented the Father from reestablishing the former relationship he had. Sin separates us from God; Jesus had no sins of his own so he could be reunited when the father chose to do so
.
Ok lets say a soul can die then God died.. don't you see the problem still being there?

You are including the first definition with the second. Jesus did die spiritually but that does not mean he ceased to exist it means he was separated from the father.
So Jesus(p) didn't die?... he was separated from God so if god separated himself then God didn't take your burdens.

I hope this addressed what you were having trouble with if it didn't tell me where specifically you still are having a problem. You cannot reject things in the bible because you don't understand them but you can if they are inconsistent with each other. This one pushed it a little but I don't see any actually contradictions here. This has been the hardest issue to research that you have given so far.

I don't think you have addressed the problems please Robin try to read my post carefully.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
I'm sorry. Does busting your nonsense = 'not having a clue'?
(Hey, Campers! He thinks it was "nonsense.")
I was talking about most Christians.
Perhaps if you'd be little more specific with your rants, things like this wouldn't happen, and you wouldn't end up having to apologize for making a mistake.
You list yourself as 'Celtic Christian', so that could mean anything. An easy out.
Thanks for the jab. Full of yourself much?
Given your statements sometimes you're not really Christian at all.
1) You're not qualified to make such a judgment, so your statement is a waste of everyone's time
2) "Christian" is a pretty broad term and does not (happily) conform to the criteria you select.
But I wasn't arguing your personal deviant take on whatever you think Christianity means,
Of course not. But you do continue to deliver personal jabs. Most people learn how to work and play well with others in Kindergarten. Someone must have been ill the day they taught manners...
This isn't about "what I think Xy means," so, once again, a colossal waste of bandwidth here.
But thanks for the ride.
I was speaking of the vast majority, and we both know this.
"Vast majority" is mostly a vast overstatement. Most mainline xtians agree with me on this point.
Thanks for pulling your own pants down here. Hope you're wearing your good undies!
We're not talking of person wiggle room. We're talking about what the text says, literally, in total.

It says 'kill your disobedient daughters via stoning.'
Yeah, well, it also says that God made the earth in 6 days, and we all know that isn't so.
To take the texts "literally, in total" is irresponsible and a dishonest treatment of the texts.

My, but you seem to want to exercise an awful lot of control over how we Xtians read our sacred texts! Why don't you save us all a lot of grief and put your bullet back in your shirt pocket?
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Okay...all this talk about Jesus....and a lot more not so much...
and no one is actually quoting the Carpenter.

Any one ever read the parable of the wedding feast?
It ends with 'weeping and gnashing of teeth'.

Can the soul be destroyed?....yeah.
Any reason to 'save; an unworthy soul?....nay.

Don't understand the parables?....then you're not one of His.

Not what happens?
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
here's a quote
mark 14:42 Rise! Let us go! Here comes my betrayer!”
matthew 26:46 Rise! Let us go! Here comes my betrayer!”
:run:
 

CMike

Well-Known Member
G-D never said tht sin "should be paid for in blood".

There were sacrifices for many reasons.There were sacrifices for festive events, giving thanks, and all sorts of reasons. Sins was only one reason.

Also since there is not Temple in jeruslalem anymore sacrifices are no longer alowed. Jews deals with sins by repenting and trying to not do it again.

The burden of dealing with sins is our own. No one can do it for us.

According to the messianic prophesies as found in Michah 4:3 an Ezekiel 37, when the messiah actually comes, the following will occur

  • All the jews will be brought to Israel
  • All the jews will stay in Israel
  • World peace
  • The temple in jersalem will be rebuilt and stand forever.
The 2nd coming stuff is all made up christian theology.

It has NOTHING to do with judiasm, jewish scripture, or the G-D that jews believe in.

What's Pessa?

As far as the reliance on anyone but the one G-D...

I, even I, am the Lord, and apart from Me there is no savior. (Isaiah, 43:11)







quote=roberto;2973245]If someone agrees to pay money on/in your stead for debt , then that person has taken the burden of debt on him/herself.
The Father defined in the "old testament" that sin should be paid for in blood, not so ?[That is avon and hatat sin]
The Sota definition in the "old testament" of what happens to a wayward/whoring bride describes what the Messiah came to do.
The Messiah paid the "price" on "our" behalf and by dying he can/could now marry his wayward/whoring bride[Northern tribes] again.
"our"behalf"> [Northern tribes and their sojourners] That is why I call myself a sojourner to 10 Israel.
I might add that there is no attonement for Pessa sin. Pessa sin according to Torah requires death penalty. [That is why the Messiah had to die on our behalf]
Now why do we still pray for forgiveness of sin ? Because those sins are the first two sins meantioned > Avon and hatat sins.]
Hope that helps.
Please note : The Messiah was not sent for Judah/the Jews.
.[/quote]
 

F0uad

Well-Known Member
Absolutely.

Suicide is grave sin.

According to judaism our bodies belong to G-D.

I know that Suicide is a grave sin.

All that i am pointing out is that Human-Sacrifices in general are forbidden in the Torah/Law: Leviticus 20:1-5. Jeremiah 7:31, 19:5, and 32:35. Jesus(p) was upholding these laws according to:

Matthew 5:17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

So how does a human-sacrifice fits into the picture?
 
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