the right religion

Oryonder · Jun 5, 2012

1robin said:
Good then lets drop dates. I don't usually find them important.

I did not say Dates were unimportant ?

Then you disagree with Christ. As well as the other apostles. Unless you assert that the writer whom all the other apostles accepted and who wrote more of the new testament than anyone and who prevailed in the discussion with the other apostles lied when he said he met Christ.

Nope .. I agree with Christ. The other apostles did not accept Pauls "salvation by faith" teaching. They were Jews and believed in the Law.

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law"

Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven

Jesus then goes on to elucidate further on what he means by righteousness .. he talks about the law and not one word about faith.

Later in Matt 15 Jesus talks about what makes one unclean.

16“Are you still so dull?” Jesus asked them. 17“Don’t you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? 18But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man ‘unclean.’ 19For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. 20These are what make a man ‘unclean’; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him ‘unclean."
No mention of Faith making one clean before God but more talk of works.

Matt 18 .. The Father's favor based on works

"Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ 34In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.
35“This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart.”

Matt 23: More comments on obedience to the Law

"23Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness"

Then we have a specific instance of Jesus telling you exactly what is required for salvation and what righteousness is.

Matt 25

31“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
37“Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
40“The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’
41“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
44“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
45“He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
46“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

Here Jesus is talking specifically about what righteousness is and who will gain eternal life.

Zero about faith ... all about deeds.

They only contradict your understanding of this issue. I have read eight commentaries on this subject lately and they seem to have no issue reconcileing them. Also the notes in my NIV life application bible had no problem.

Im sure you can find 50 apologists making up all kinds of excuses. None however are satisfactory in light of the words spoken by Jesus.

James had it right .. Paul has it wrong.

Give any one of these commentaries you speak of and they will fail the words of Jesus in scripture given above.

idea · Jun 5, 2012

waitasec said:
why can't he speak for himself then...
he must be mute.

He does speak for Himself, to those who listen.

idea · Jun 5, 2012

Oryonder said:
James had it right .. Paul has it wrong.

it takes both works and faith, not one or the other, but both.... they are both right...

Oryonder · Jun 5, 2012

idea said:
it takes both works and faith, not one or the other, but both.... they are both right...

Not according to Paul and John.

waitasec · Jun 5, 2012

i find that picture quite offensive

idea · Jun 5, 2012

waitasec said:
i find that picture quite offensive

I agree. We do not use crosses on our church buildings because we celebrate the life of Christ, not his death.

1robin · Jun 5, 2012

waitasec said:
i find that picture quite offensive

That explains a lot. However if you tell me why or if it is against some rules here I will remove it. I didn't mean to post it anyway.

1robin · Jun 5, 2012

idea said:
I agree. We do not use crosses on our church buildings because we celebrate the life of Christ, not his death.

Just for clarification are you a Latter day saint. And like I said to the other person however if you tell me why or if it is against some rules here I will remove it. I didn't mean to post it anyway. I find that picture very touching and a reminder of the price paid for me and every one, but my offer still stands.

idea · Jun 5, 2012

1robin said:
Just for clarification are you a Latter day saint. And like I said to the other person however if you tell me why or if it is against some rules here I will remove it. I didn't mean to post it anyway. I find that picture very touching and a reminder of the price paid for me and every one, but my offer still stands.

yes, I am LDS.
When asked why we don't use a cross, and what symbols we do use,
President Hinckley saidthe lives of our people must become the only meaningful expression of our faith and, in fact, therefore, the symbol of our worship (The Symbol of Christ, New Era, Apr. 1990, p. 4).

President Hinckley further explained, On Calvary he was the dying Jesus. From the tomb he emerged the living Christ. Because our Savior lives, we do not use the symbol of his death as the symbol of our faith. But what shall we use? No sign, no work of art, no representation of form is adequate to express the glory and the wonder of the Living Christ. He told us what that symbol should be when he said, If ye love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15) (pp. 6, 7).

President Hinckley further explained, On Calvary he was the dying Jesus. From the tomb he emerged the living Christ. Because our Savior lives, we do not use the symbol of his death as the symbol of our faith. But what shall we use? No sign, no work of art, no representation of form is adequate to express the glory and the wonder of the Living Christ. He told us what that symbol should be when he said, If ye love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15)

1robin · Jun 5, 2012

idea said:
yes, I am LDS.
When asked why we don't use a cross, and what symbols we do use,
President Hinckley saidthe lives of our people must become the only meaningful expression of our faith and, in fact, therefore, the symbol of our worship (The Symbol of Christ, New Era, Apr. 1990, p. 4).

President Hinckley further explained, On Calvary he was the dying Jesus. From the tomb he emerged the living Christ. Because our Savior lives, we do not use the symbol of his death as the symbol of our faith. But what shall we use? No sign, no work of art, no representation of form is adequate to express the glory and the wonder of the Living Christ. He told us what that symbol should be when he said, If ye love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15) (pp. 6, 7).

President Hinckley further explained, On Calvary he was the dying Jesus. From the tomb he emerged the living Christ. Because our Savior lives, we do not use the symbol of his death as the symbol of our faith. But what shall we use? No sign, no work of art, no representation of form is adequate to express the glory and the wonder of the Living Christ. He told us what that symbol should be when he said, If ye love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15)

Fair enough and as promised it has been removed. Of course I do not believe the teachings of LDS but I do believe there are sincere Christians within the faith. If you do not mind saying are you a born again Christian or do you believe you are a Christian by another method?

idea · Jun 5, 2012

1robin said:
Fair enough and as promised it has been removed. Of course I do not believe the teachings of LDS but I do believe there are sincere Christians within the faith. If you do not mind saying are you a born again Christian or do you believe you are a Christian by another method?

Yes, I consider myself a born-again Christian, as I was baptized by full immersion by an elder holding priesthood authority to perform the ordinance, as well as the laying on of hands to receive the holy Ghost. I think Baptists and Mormons agree on the need for baptism, and not just the sprinkling of an infant, but for "believer's baptism", or one in which the person being baptised is old enough to understand and choose the covenants they are making.

Thank you for recognizing that there are sincere Christians within our faith, I recognize the same for you.

waitasec · Jun 5, 2012

1robin said:
That explains a lot. However if you tell me why or if it is against some rules here I will remove it. I didn't mean to post it anyway.

i don't know about you but a picture of a person that is tortured gives me the willies...and the implications of such a picture, for which i have a feeling was your intent to post it was, it was because of us that he was tortured.

i find that disgusting

1robin · Jun 5, 2012

waitasec said:
i don't know about you but a picture of a person that is tortured gives me the willies...and the implications of such a picture, for which i have a feeling was your intent to post it was, it was because of us that he was tortured.

i find that disgusting

Actually you are as usual wrong. I probably should have posted it but it showed up by accident when I copied and posted. I actually thought I might be doing a disservice to Christianity by removeing it but then I thought that a christian should act with love and so in respect to you and the other person then I removed it. You can view his sacrifice as an extraordinary example of the love God has for you on display and in action, like a soldier who jumps on a grenade for his friends and gets a bag of medals. That is the greatest example of love in human history. What Christians weep with joy and appreciation for, you consider disgusting. It all depends on the inclination of your heart. You get what you chose.

Iamwhoiam · Jun 5, 2012

Just believe in Isis and be saved Also you can join The Fellowship of ISIS

I do have much more to say but I'm too tired. Let me just say this I've been debating with family all day via facebook but the truth I believe, in the end we will all find we were wrong about certain things. If there is a life after this I believe we will be all pleasantly surprised. If I'm wrong? I guess I'll burn

waitasec · Jun 5, 2012

1robin said:
Actually you are as usual wrong. I probably should have posted it but it showed up by accident when I copied and posted. I actually thought I might be doing a disservice to Christianity by removeing it but then I thought that a christian should act with love and so in respect to you and the other person then I removed it. You can view his sacrifice as an extraordinary example of the love God has for you on display and in action, like a soldier who jumps on a grenade for his friends and gets a bag of medals. That is the greatest example of love in human history. What Christians weep with joy and appreciation for, you consider disgusting. It all depends on the inclination of your heart. You get what you chose.

actually i view this as a disgusting barbaric gesture

1robin · Jun 5, 2012

waitasec said:
actually i view this as a disgusting barbaric gesture

This is a narrow biased inaccurate view that doesn't make any sence, and so you will be without excuse. You knew the truth and loved it not.

waitasec · Jun 5, 2012

1robin said:
This is a narrow biased inaccurate view that doesn't make any sence, and so you will be without excuse. You knew the truth and loved it not.

so you enjoy looking at a picture of a tortured person?

interesting

Oryonder · Jun 5, 2012

1robin said:
Well what will you allow them to be? So the rest of us can adapt to your sensitive needs.

They all believed in grace. You are about as opposite to standard Christian theology as possible. I will ask this for the fourth and final time. Are you a born again Christian? Are you a Catholic

Lutheran .. what difference does it make ?

Your quite amazing ... you completely ignored the passages give a crystal clear picture of who gets saved and who doesnt.

Let's revisit.

Matt 5: Sermon on the mount.

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law"

Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven

And from Matt 25

31When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
34Then the King will say to those on his right, Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.
37Then the righteous will answer him, Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?
40The King will reply, I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.
41Then he will say to those on his left, Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.
44They also will answer, Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?
45He will reply, I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.
46Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life"

Both passages have Jesus speaking directly about "eternal life = salvation" or entering the kingdom of heaven = salvation.

You can not take anymore of what?? Scripture that contradicts Paul and John ?

I have already granted that Paul and John preach "salvation by faith/grace" ... Why on earth do you continue posting passages from these ? To convince yourself ?

I am already convinced that this is what they preached..

Your post from Mark does not help your case .. Belief in the Gospel = believe in the message of Jesus = believe in works.

I agree .. and always have agreed that there are passages in John which claim that Jesus spoke about salvation only through faith so there is no need to repost these passages in order to convince me.

The best you can get to then is that the Jesus of "John" contradicts the Jesus of "Matt".

You rant on about my theology being wrong but you have not addressed the clear and specific teachings in the words of Jesus from Matt 5 and Matt 25, nor the teachings of James.

What do you think Jesus means in Matt 25 .. when he separates the sheep from the goats ?

Really . .what is your answer .. how does Jesus separate the Sheep from the Goats ?

9Westy9 · Jun 6, 2012

1robin said:
This is a narrow biased inaccurate view that doesn't make any sence, and so you will be without excuse. You knew the truth and loved it not.

and your comment shows your closed minded, arrogant point of view that is completely wrong. A person being tortured for my "sin" by an omnipotent, omniscient, benevolent being is barbaric and contradictory to his characteristics.

1robin · Jun 6, 2012

waitasec said:
so you enjoy looking at a picture of a tortured person?

interesting

Once again you invent an inaccurate position that you say I have adopted and then comment on it. Quit fighting paper tigers and actually deal with what I say not what you warp it into so you have a chance to rebut. I didn't say that picture is enjoyable to look at. It serves as a profound reminder of the price paid for us. It renews my bond and commitment to God. Of course in your bizarro world these I am sure are bad things. Since you can barely speak for yourself don't attempt to do so for me.

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