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BLIND FAITH: Serpent-handling pastor profiled earlier in Washington Post dies from rattlesnake bite
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JustWondering2
Just the facts Ma'am
Not a healthy attitude for who? I grew up on a farm in Texas. I saw and was taught at very young age what snakes could do if you get too close to one and in fact I was bitten once by a Copperhead and lived to tell about it, because I was taken to a doctor shortly after being bitten.
Healthy attitude = stay away from snakes, if you do get bitten seek medical help ASAP.
Un-healthy attitude = Handle snakes to prove you have faith in God and don't worry if
you get bitten cause God will protect you. No need to seek medical help!
As Ron White said "you can't fix stupid" and anyone who thinks handling snakes with your bare hands is ok FOR ANY REASON is just plain STUPID. As I said I have no sympathy for anyone STUPID enough to try doing this. I do have sympathy for his family and loved ones, as long as they learn from what happened to this IDIOT and stop the insane practice. By their reasoning playing Russian Roelette with a .38 won't get you killed if you have enough faith in God!!
"Handlin snakes with your bare hands...now that's just STUDID, I don't care who ya are"
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InChrist
Free4ever
This is the kind of thing which occurs when someone takes scripture out of context and assumes that every verse applies personally to them and then presumes upon God to make it happen. The verses in Mark about handling snakes and displaying signs and wonders did apply to the apostles as they spread the gospel into new areas, but they do not specifically apply to anyone today. The passage below shows that the apostle Paul was divinely protected from a deadly snake bite, not because he was putting on a show, but because he was faithfully serving the Lord.
But when Paul had gathered a bundle of sticks and laid them on the fire, a viper came out because of the heat, and fastened on his hand. So when the natives saw the creature hanging from his hand, they said to one another, No doubt this man is a murderer, whom, though he has escaped the sea, yet justice does not allow to live. But he shook off the creature into the fire and suffered no harm. Acts 28;3-5
But when Paul had gathered a bundle of sticks and laid them on the fire, a viper came out because of the heat, and fastened on his hand. So when the natives saw the creature hanging from his hand, they said to one another, No doubt this man is a murderer, whom, though he has escaped the sea, yet justice does not allow to live. But he shook off the creature into the fire and suffered no harm. Acts 28;3-5
Quiddity
UndertheInfluenceofGiants
Well, the reformation only expedited what sometimes already happened in the Catholic Church but it normally didn't go to far because of the authoritative system we have. It's a jab at exegetical anarchy.
Still, he was protected by a god. Why can anyone not assume that they are not similarly protected when serving the same god. God protected Paul, this god is an interventionist god, this god will protect those who serve him. I thought this man was stupid but you are saying he was duped by a god. Please explain why someone who is serving this god cannot expect the same level of protection as Paul.
God gave us the ability to reason and interpret what we see, hear and read. We are not His automatons.
Also, does this not show the level that these scriptures are aimed at. The snake judged the man in the eyes of those who witnessed this and the man showed that his god judged him instead. The dead pastor has been bitten before and survived, should he not think as Paul and as those witnesses, after all this god has shown a propensity for snake judgement to sway ignorant people, as you quote. Clearly, the word that Paul had was not enough (fair enough) but this god had to compete on a level that people understood; ie snakes. We have come on from this and snakes (for most of us) are not judgemental and never have had that power outside those who believe they did and that the gods that superseded these fabulous snakes are exactly the same.
painted wolf
Grey Muzzle
This is a fuzzy area of the law.... They have their right to freedom of religion.
Should JW's be forced to accept blood transfusions... even if it will save their lives? Where does the right to freedom of religion get trumped by the power of the state to dictate medical care?
The pastor had been bitten before (likely a "dry bite" or nearly so) and he was part of a sect that shuns medical help over prayer. Everyone in his congregation knew his wishes and the risks. It isn't a religious practice taken up lightly.
What seems logical for us (immediate medical help) was not logical to them (faith in prayer). This is one of the funny things about how the human brain works. The joys of cognitive biases.
wa:do
When I spoke of "early Christians", I was referring specifically to the apostles and those alive in the first century. After the first century, as foretold, a great apostasy corrupted the Christian congregation, full-blown by the days of Patrick and Giulio. (2 Peter 2:1, 2 and Thessalonians 2:3,4)
We have strong reasons to trust the Bible was recorded accurately. Spurious verses have been unmasked and eliminated from modern accurate translations, such as the verses mentioned in Mark.
Today, there are about 6,000 manuscripts of the Hebrew Scriptures and over 13,000 of the Greek Scriptures. Comparative study of these has produced an original-language text that can be trusted. Scholar F.F. Bruce stated: "Variant readings...affect no material question of historic fact or of Christian faith and practice." Many other Bible scholars agree with Bruce, and attest to the Bible's accuracy.
InChrist
Free4ever
I think the man was foolish and stupid, also. He was self-serving and attempting to use and presume upon God to make a show of himself. I don't believe he was really serving the same God at all, but a god of his imagination whom he thought he could manipulate. God has no obligation to protect someone who displays this kind of behavior and he doesn't.
Then the devil took Him up into the holy city, set Him on the pinnacle of the temple, and said to Him, If You are the Son of God, throw Yourself down. For it is written:He shall give His angels charge over you, and,In their hands they shall bear you up, Lest you dash your foot against a stone.
Jesus said to him, It is written again, You shall not tempt the Lord your God.
Matthew 4:5-7
A Troubled Man
Active Member
Again, another perfect example of how an indoctrination machine like religion causes good people to behave badly. The people themselves are not to blame for praying as opposed to calling the paramedics, religion is to blame, entirely.
JustWondering2
Just the facts Ma'am
Yeah "A Troubled Man" So with that in mind I guess their religious beleifs trumped common sense huh? Shouldn't that be the other way around? I mean I don't care what a preacher tells me, I'm not going to let that blind me to common sense!! So I disagree completely with you on this one! The people that stood by basically doing nothing but talking over him are as much to blame for his death as he was. Wouldn't a small amount of common sense be enough to cause the average sane person to grab their phone and dial 911!! Oh and tell me if I'm wrong, but isn't suicide pretty much deal breaker for going to Heaven according to the Bible? If so, sounds like he kinda shot himself in the foot HUH!!
work in progress
Well-Known Member
You do realize that the preachers who do snake handling are going to claim that they are doing it to serve the Lord too, and not putting on a show. Heck, if the faith healers can get up there and claim that they are not drawing attention for their own personal cult, but just glorifying Jesus, than anything's possible!
I started thinking the same thing about taking verses out of context when so many churches started reaching back to those Old Testament verses about tithing in support of the Temple in Jerusalem as the justification for shaking down the flock for 10% of their income! What had once been a fringe concept became widely accepted because it was so lucrative for church leaders, and it is also about taking verses out of their original context to apply them to modern day churches. Another similar example would be how NT prophecies that appear to be referring specifically to the generation alive during Jesus's time keep getting reapplied to current events by prophecy-mongers and their fans.
But, who gets to decide which verses apply as universal rules and which ones specifically to events of the time? I'll let any Pentecostals explain their reasons why they think speaking in tongues still applies today.
And I would say that the wreckless and stupid global warming deniers like Sen. Tom Coburn -- who claims that God will not allow man to destroy the Earth so we have nothing to worry about, are following a similar imaginary deity who just happens to agree with everything they want to do!
InChrist
Free4ever
Any claim may be possible, but that does not mean it is acceptable or legitimate in God's eyes.
The OT verses used to support tithing are not applicable for churches or believers today and I certainly think they have been abused and misinterpreted, sometimes ignorantly and often for gain.
I don't believe God will let man destroy the earth either, but God still holds humans accountable for being goods stewards and taking care of the earth.
I believe the scriptures if read prayerfully, carefully, and in context interpret and shed light on themselves.
work in progress
Well-Known Member
[youtube]EKd6UJPghUs[/youtube]
Inhofe: The Bible Says Global Warming Is A Hoax - YouTube
First, a correction! I attributed the quote paraphrasing 'that God would not allow the Earth to be destroyed, therefore we have not need to worry about causing global warming' to Sen. Tom Coburn by mistake. Maybe his name just happened to come up again in the news, and he has enough stupid things to say himself, but the statement regarding global warming belongs to the Republican point man for the oil and coal industries - James Inhofe. As the video shows, he quotes Gen.8:22 as meaning God won't allow man to destroy our environment, so we have nothing to worry about. Maybe that provides a figleaf for Inhofe to collect millions from his patrons....more than 1.3 million, as far as legal donations go - Inhofe: God Says Global Warming Is A Hoax | ThinkProgress.....sounds like tempting fate; but maybe quoting Bible verse makes it easier to collect dirty money on false pretenses!
Past extinctions have been caused by mostly by natural earth processes that caused rapid increases in CO2 and other greenhouse gases, and poisoned the world's oceans. Only one major extinction -- the K/T event 63 million years ago, which took out the dinosaurs among its victims, may have been primarily caused by an external event...an asteroid or comet striking the Earth.
The problem is that, at this time in history, there are enough people in the world using enough resources and stored energy in the earth (oil, coal, natural gas) to push global temperatures high enough to cause another major extinction....which would kill off the vast majority of people living, if not cause the complete extinction of humans in a couple of centuries. The issue isn't about "man destroying the earth," it needs to be more properly understood as: we are part of nature, regardless of how much we think we control it! All of our modern agriculture, building and engineering, is dependent on natural cycles of the planet's biosphere, and when we overload them...such as dumping more carbon into the atmosphere than can be sequestered by natural earth processes, then greenhouse gas levels rise, the planet gets warmer, and we find ourselves in a world that does not support the way we have been living for the last 10,000 years. It's not us destroying the Earth, as much as it is the Earth being forced to a warmer level that will cause mass extinction before natural feedback cycles can bring greenhouse gas levels down to a range that is more hospitable for life.
I don't see where God has come in to save the day for animals lost to past extinctions, so I don't see such a thing happening today either! Whatever someone believes about higher powers, it would make more sense to assume that we are on our own and have to solve these problems ourselves. The faint hope that a saviour will come along at the last minute to prevent disaster seems to just feed the complacency of a lot of people, and resist any major changes to an economic model based on continuous growth and greater consumption of resources.
Inhofe: The Bible Says Global Warming Is A Hoax - YouTube
First, a correction! I attributed the quote paraphrasing 'that God would not allow the Earth to be destroyed, therefore we have not need to worry about causing global warming' to Sen. Tom Coburn by mistake. Maybe his name just happened to come up again in the news, and he has enough stupid things to say himself, but the statement regarding global warming belongs to the Republican point man for the oil and coal industries - James Inhofe. As the video shows, he quotes Gen.8:22 as meaning God won't allow man to destroy our environment, so we have nothing to worry about. Maybe that provides a figleaf for Inhofe to collect millions from his patrons....more than 1.3 million, as far as legal donations go - Inhofe: God Says Global Warming Is A Hoax | ThinkProgress.....sounds like tempting fate; but maybe quoting Bible verse makes it easier to collect dirty money on false pretenses!
I can see how belief in tithing could be an example of motivated reasoning, similar to a politician taking large sums of money from lobbyists to support their interests, but since I'm looking on from outside, I am not really willing to jump in to the middle of tithing or Pentecostal practices about who's right. Arguments are going to go back and forth from each side. My thoughts are that, when it comes to dangerous religious rituals...like snake-handling obviously is, then it should be against the civil law code regardless of whether there are believers who want to insist on taking up the practice. I would also add in religious rules that make demands that can cause harm, like denying vaccinations, blood transfusions or any other medical help.
From the more recent evidence in geology and paleontology, there have been a number of mass extinctions previously in Earth history; the worst being an event called"The Great Dying," which by best estimates, killed off more than 90% of land and sea creatures living at the end of the Permian Era 250 million years ago.
Past extinctions have been caused by mostly by natural earth processes that caused rapid increases in CO2 and other greenhouse gases, and poisoned the world's oceans. Only one major extinction -- the K/T event 63 million years ago, which took out the dinosaurs among its victims, may have been primarily caused by an external event...an asteroid or comet striking the Earth.
The problem is that, at this time in history, there are enough people in the world using enough resources and stored energy in the earth (oil, coal, natural gas) to push global temperatures high enough to cause another major extinction....which would kill off the vast majority of people living, if not cause the complete extinction of humans in a couple of centuries. The issue isn't about "man destroying the earth," it needs to be more properly understood as: we are part of nature, regardless of how much we think we control it! All of our modern agriculture, building and engineering, is dependent on natural cycles of the planet's biosphere, and when we overload them...such as dumping more carbon into the atmosphere than can be sequestered by natural earth processes, then greenhouse gas levels rise, the planet gets warmer, and we find ourselves in a world that does not support the way we have been living for the last 10,000 years. It's not us destroying the Earth, as much as it is the Earth being forced to a warmer level that will cause mass extinction before natural feedback cycles can bring greenhouse gas levels down to a range that is more hospitable for life.
I don't see where God has come in to save the day for animals lost to past extinctions, so I don't see such a thing happening today either! Whatever someone believes about higher powers, it would make more sense to assume that we are on our own and have to solve these problems ourselves. The faint hope that a saviour will come along at the last minute to prevent disaster seems to just feed the complacency of a lot of people, and resist any major changes to an economic model based on continuous growth and greater consumption of resources.
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'Religion is to blame' or religious teachings are to blame ?
The clergy [who people trust] should very well know Mark 16 ends at verse 8.
The clergy have Not taught the people the religious truth that the verses after verse 8 were added on in the KJV and Not part of the original manuscripts.
The style of writing changes after verse 8
Jerome and Eusebius thought Mark ended at verse 8
There aren't corresponding verses after v 8 as there is with the rest of Mark.
Those spurious verses after verse 8 are not found in the Vatican 1209.
So, clergy teachings are to blame and not Scripture.
That does not make Scripture blameworthy but makes the clergy wrong.
False religion is to blame, Not the 1st-century teachings of Jesus.
painted wolf
Grey Muzzle
Honestly I think snake handling provides a sense of control in an area of the country that is one of the most economically, socially and educationally depressed in the nation.
Not only is there a tremendous sense of power from surviving it (much like people get a rush from roller coasters and jumping out of planes), but it feeds into the idea that God is looking out for you personally and that your faith is unquestionable.
You have power (through your faith) over something that can kill you. when your community is filled with the starving and sick... that is a significant release for stress.
Plus, it's not an uncommon coping strategy. Look at all the people who use thrill seeking to reduce emotional and social stress (and in a way get "high") in non-religious ways.
No one heaps this much disdain on free climbers and free divers... yet their behaviors are just as risky and ultimately just as often deadly. One group are lauded as athletes the others as morons.
wa:do
Not only is there a tremendous sense of power from surviving it (much like people get a rush from roller coasters and jumping out of planes), but it feeds into the idea that God is looking out for you personally and that your faith is unquestionable.
You have power (through your faith) over something that can kill you. when your community is filled with the starving and sick... that is a significant release for stress.
Plus, it's not an uncommon coping strategy. Look at all the people who use thrill seeking to reduce emotional and social stress (and in a way get "high") in non-religious ways.
No one heaps this much disdain on free climbers and free divers... yet their behaviors are just as risky and ultimately just as often deadly. One group are lauded as athletes the others as morons.
wa:do