Founders wanted a Christian America.

Founding Fathers were a mix of people and beliefs. We have the Constitution to prove this isn't a christian country.

COMMIES!!!!

Simbagraphix said:

If you look into American history you will find, and this is something Americans also believe, that the nation's founders held the core beliefs and wrote Christianity into the Constitution, and America was founded on Christian principals. So for the courts or the Legeslative branch or the Excutive Branch which is POTUS or President in this case Obama, try to say different or try to force you against your religious principles as they are trying with the abortion issue now is Un-American and against what the founding fathers envisioned.

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What are you basing this on?

I only know of one official document that any of the Founding Fathers had a hand in that says anything about the Christian foundation of the United States (or lack thereof): the Treaty of Tripoli. And it contradicts what you're saying here.

Nowhere Man said:

Wasnt it the church of England one of the reasons for getting the hell out of dodge in the first place?

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Why yes it was one of the reasons they left.

Now America is much too diverse in spirituality to have Christianity as religion of the state. Having a religion of the state would put America into the same category as Iran and Saudi Arabia where people are discriminated, or even punished for being anything otherwise.

'Land of the Free' does not mean the land of one religion controlling the people.

Christians, by all means do try to inflict your religion upon all Americans, but I do not think you'll like the outcome.

Simbagraphix said:

If you look into American history you will find, and this is something Americans also believe, that the nation's founders held the core beliefs and wrote Christianity into the Constitution, and America was founded on Christian principals. So for the courts or the Legeslative branch or the Excutive Branch which is POTUS or President in this case Obama, try to say different or try to force you against your religious principles as they are trying with the abortion issue now is Un-American and against what the founding fathers envisioned.

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Or if you check American History will you find that America was built on the backs of a number of different religious groups that had been persecuted in Europe and moved to America in a bid practice their religions free of persecution.

It is a fine example of how good Law should be written. It is clear, purposeful, impartial and equitable to all. Every American should be proud to have that as the first amendment to their constitution.

With regard to questioning the founding fathers intentions, you misunderestimate either how many there were, or their ability to apply Law as intended.

The fact that the amendment remains unchanged strengthens the both the integrity of the Law and the ease with which it can be applied.

Furthermore had the founding fathers made an error at the time they would have amended it themselves, by not doing so it further strengthens the argument that the amendment does reflect their feelings on the matter.

This country was founded by the religious white land owners who did not want to be taxed or controlled by any church. All the while we had indentured servants, slaves, and no womens rights.

To glourify the founding fathers is quite ignorant. They did however create a great document that could be changed over time to serve the will of the people.

Reverend Rick said:

This country was founded by the religious white land owners who did not want to be taxed or controlled by any church. All the while we had indentured servants, slaves, and no womens rights.

To glourify the founding fathers is quite ignorant. They did however create a great document that could be changed over time to serve the will of the people.

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this...

"Founded on Christian principles" doesn't exactly mean founded on Christianity. Many, perhaps most Christian principles are also Muslim, Buddhist and Humanist principles.

You have to keep in mind the historical context the founders were dealing with -- the recent religious wars, strife, chaos, intolerance. They saw religion as a potential powder keg, hence the "wall of separation" Jefferson wrote of to the Danbury Baptists.

The immigrants "seeking religious freedom" were not the liberal progressives they sound like. They sought to set up religious enclaves of their own in the New World which were even more intolerant than the regimes they were fleeing.

The US was a product of the European Enlightenment, AKA The Age of Reason. The Founders saw the new country as a radical experiment in Humanism, rejecting the Monarchism and religious cantonment of Europe and embracing Rousseau's Social Contract theory.

"But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." -Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

fallingblood said:

I would suggest George M. Marsden's book, Religion and American Culture. Or even Kathleen D. McCarthy's book American Creed.

To sum up, no.

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Or perhaps even reading the Constitution. The only mention of god or religion in the document is the forbidding of 'religious' tests as a prerequisite for holding office.

I slip further into despair and misanthropy every day that I read attempts to turn my country into a theocracy with pseudohistory and ignorance.

Meow Mix said:

I slip further into despair and misanthropy every day that I read attempts to turn my country into a theocracy with pseudohistory and ignorance.

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Just watch C-SPAN, Congress starts every session with a prayer. Allway has, most likely allways will. Open your eyes MM, your country has always been a theocracy.

It's your reading of pseudohistory federalist papers that delude you into believing otherwise.

While technically correct, we are not a theocracy, our country sure walks like a duck quacking the whole time.

Reverend Rick said:

Just watch C-SPAN, Congress starts every session with a prayer. Allway has, most likely allways will. Open your eyes MM, your country has always been a theocracy.

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Hardly. You have a significant misunderstanding of the term "theocracy" if you think the U.S. is one.

The early New England colonies governed as theocracies. People could be thrown into jail or displayed in the stocks for working on Sunday rather than going to church. Adultery and fornication were punished by similar methods. Crimes could be both secular or religious ones. Jailing and executing suspected witches was entirely a religious act often based upon a minister's having identified the person as a witch by means of the medieval text, the Malleus Maleficarum. THAT's what theocracy means and is why the Founding Fathers were so careful to keep religion out of government in drafting the Constitution.

While technically correct, we are not a theocracy, our country sure walks like a duck quacking the whole time.

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Granted, there are vestiges of religion remaining from the days when the federal government would hardly have dared operate without some customary nod to religion such as having a minister open sessions of Congress with a prayer, the Senate having an annual prayer breakfast and the like.

These, however, are only remnants of a time when voters would have been horrified at having a godless Congress and when the President was expected to show reverence to God now and again--the Christian one, of course.

Other than these small customs, the U.S. is hardly a theocracy despite the efforts of some to make it into one again. Apparently, such people have paid little attention to what happened in the colonies when theocracies reigned supreme and have learned nothing from the mob violence in the name of religion that was the Salem Witch Trials.

So at the moment one could reasonably say that the States is neither a theocracy or theocracy free either.

People like to think we are a secular government, but that is far from accurate.

Reverend Rick said:

So at the moment one could reasonably say that the States is neither a theocracy or theocracy free either.

People like to think we are a secular government, but that is far from accurate.

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A few relatively benign old customs such as opening Congress with a prayer hardly constitute a theocracy. You can't even reasonably say that such things indicate a theocracy which means a government dominated by religion.

Now, if you can demonstrate that every member of the President's cabinet and the heads of the armed forces are all clergypeople or yield to the advice of ministers, rabbis, imams and the like when making decisions, those would be clear evidence of theocratic domination of government.

If the only person who could get elected was someone whose every speech proclaimed how the person would decide based upon God's Word as stated in the Bible, who began and ended each speech with a prayer, and whose closest advisor in the White House was his minister (his, of course, since no woman would be suitable in God's eyes to be President), THAT would indicate a theocracy.

That we are not a theocracy ought to be evident since almost no place upholds "blue laws" anymore, laws forbidding stores and businesses to open on Sunday.

HerDotness said:

A few relatively benign old customs such as opening Congress with a prayer hardly constitute a theocracy. You can't even reasonably say that such things indicate a theocracy which means a government dominated by religion.

Now, if you can demonstrate that every member of the President's cabinet and the heads of the armed forces are all clergypeople or yield to the advice of ministers, rabbis, imams and the like when making decisions, those would be clear evidence of theocratic domination of government.

If the only person who could get elected was someone whose every speech proclaimed how the person would decide based upon God's Word as stated in the Bible, who began and ended each speech with a prayer, and whose closest advisor in the White House was his minister (his, of course, since no woman would be suitable in God's eyes to be President), THAT would indicate a theocracy.

That we are not a theocracy ought to be evident since almost no place upholds "blue laws" anymore, laws forbidding stores and businesses to open on Sunday.

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The whole country is not there yet. You cannot even buy alcohol by the drink in my town and the next town down the road does not serve on Sunday.

Last election, there was a big deal made saying Obama was a Muslim. We all know that was ignorant, but what if it where true? Are people saying we could not have a Muslim President?

Imagine the ackwardness of saying a prayer before we swore the President in.

We would even have to change the oath of office.

While you maintain one aspect of your position correctly, there still is that damn duck quacking almost mocking your position. To ignore these glaring facts is quite telling.

"These glaring facts" are vestiges of when the U.S. was far closer to being a theocracy than it is today. Give the fundamentalist element any leeway to speak of, and we'll all see what a theocracy really means.

Do you think ANY state would have legalized gay marriage if this country were a theocracy? Would the President have just given a speech supporting gay marriage if the U.S. were a theocracy?

Whether or not the President has a religion has nothing to do with the government being a theocracy.

You're making mountains out of a few molehills, pointing to them and saying, "See there! That means the U.S. government is a theocracy."

HerDotness said:

"These glaring facts" are vestiges of when the U.S. was far closer to being a theocracy than it is today. Give the fundamentalist element any leeway to speak of, and we'll all see what a theocracy really means.

Do you think ANY state would have legalized gay marriage if this country were a theocracy? Would the President have just given a speech supporting gay marriage if the U.S. were a theocracy?

Whether or not the President has a religion has nothing to do with the government being a theocracy.

You're making mountains out of a few molehills, pointing to them and saying, "See there! That means the U.S. government is a theocracy."

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No I am not. Your not following what I am saying at all. Saying the duck is quacking loudly is hardly an absolute position.

The fact that the president just got around to his current position should be telling you something. The country is walking a tightrope. N.C. is an example of things going the other way.

There is no clear cut path for either position. From my perspective it is a one step forward two steps back world.

Then, do be more precise.

The customary understanding of "quacks like a duck" is that "whatever is referred to IS a duck." So, when you said the duck is quacking loudly, it was reasonable to conclude that you were saying the U.S. is far more a theocracy than we wish to think it is.

Warning signs that there are elements which would like to turn our government into a theocracy do not constitute a theocracy, I'm sure you'll agree.

disciple said:

This isn't really true. There is "separation of church and state" for a reason. If the founders had wanted a "Christian nation" then a central church would have been part of the government.

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Agreed. He's also wrong that Christianity is written into the Constitution.

The fact Christianity was the dominant religion in Europe, the birthplace or heritage of the Founding Fathers means they were definitely indoctrinated in Christian ideals. However, as any student of history knows, many immigrants to America came here for religious freedom and, since Christianity has many denominations (nowadays it exceeds 38,000), it is highly unlikely they were all in agreement on which Christian denomination should be dominant even if they were inclined to make the US a theocracy.

Any student of the Constitution of the United Knows quickly realizes that the people who propose turning our nation into a theocracy, such as Rev. William Burk at christian-america.com, are actually perverting our Constitution and, therefore, are in direct conflict with the desires of the Founding Fathers.

As the image shows, people like Rev. Burk are seeking to change the Constitution and, therefore, change our rights as American citizens:

when i say theocracy i mean it in the loosest way...
anything pointing in that direction doesn't belong in a democracy and i agree it isn't what it used to be, norway we are not.

HerDotness,
when congress opted for DOMA under clinton, their respective constituents all had a commonality ... religious reasons.