Do u believe that Prophet permitted raping ?

Bukhari , Volume 5, Book 59, Number 459:

These Hadith are why I have so much trouble with Hadiths in general.

ssainhu said:

These Hadith are why I have so much trouble with Hadiths in general.

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And also you very currently feeling the pinch of Ahadeeth that Prophet Muhammad said , "women will be more in hell ......

Union said:

And also you very currently feeling the pinch of Ahadeeth that Prophet Muhammad said , "women will be more in hell ......

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Yes, I sure am. :yes:

ssainhu said:

These Hadith are why I have so much trouble with Hadiths in general.

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Dear sister after studying arabic..I have seen that alot of ahadith(sayings) aren't translated correctley..so I would say write the nr. of these sayings down and ask someone who has studied the arabic language and then you will see that the prophet s.a.w NEVER permitted raping

I will look these sayings up in arabic InshaAllah and comment later

MuslimaInBlack said:

Dear sister after studying arabic..I have seen that alot of ahadith(sayings) aren't translated correctley..so I would say write the nr. of these sayings down and ask someone who has studied the arabic language and then you will see that the prophet s.a.w NEVER permitted raping

I will look these sayings up in arabic InshaAllah and comment later

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good point sister, thats why i keep telling everyone to look up what scholars say instead of taking matters in your own hands.

Union, are you a scholar? are you ranked among the Ulama?

eselam said:

Union, are you a scholar? are you ranked among the Ulama?

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Define what you want to mean by ulama ?

ssainhu said:

These Hadith are why I have so much trouble with Hadiths in general.

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MuslimaInBlack said:

Dear sister after studying arabic..I have seen that alot of ahadith(sayings) aren't translated correctley..so I would say write the nr. of these sayings down and ask someone who has studied the arabic language and then you will see that the prophet s.a.w NEVER permitted raping

I will look these sayings up in arabic InshaAllah and comment later

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I agree. I refuse to believe any Prophet would permit rape.

eselam said:

good point sister, thats why i keep telling everyone to look up what scholars say instead of taking matters in your own hands.

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Brother, it is very difficult to find scholars that are not culturally biased.

MuslimaInBlack said:

Dear sister after studying arabic..I have seen that alot of ahadith(sayings) aren't translated correctley..so I would say write the nr. of these sayings down and ask someone who has studied the arabic language and then you will see that the prophet s.a.w NEVER permitted raping

I will look these sayings up in arabic InshaAllah and comment later

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Here is the Arabic for the first Hadeeth I mentioned from Bukhari :

حَدَّثَنَا قُتَيْبَةُ بْنُ سَعِيدٍ، أَخْبَرَنَا إِسْمَاعِيلُ بْنُ جَعْفَرٍ، عَنْ رَبِيعَةَ بْنِ أَبِي عَبْدِ الرَّحْمَنِ، عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ يَحْيَى بْنِ حَبَّانَ، عَنِ ابْنِ مُحَيْرِيزٍ، أَنَّهُ قَالَ دَخَلْتُ الْمَسْجِدَ فَرَأَيْتُ أَبَا سَعِيدٍ الْخُدْرِيَّ فَجَلَسْتُ إِلَيْهِ فَسَأَلْتُهُ عَنِ الْعَزْلِ،، قَالَ أَبُو سَعِيدٍ خَرَجْنَا مَعَ رَسُولِ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم فِي غَزْوَةِ بَنِي الْمُصْطَلِقِ، فَأَصَبْنَا سَبْيًا مِنْ سَبْىِ الْعَرَبِ، فَاشْتَهَيْنَا النِّسَاءَ وَاشْتَدَّتْ عَلَيْنَا الْعُزْبَةُ، وَأَحْبَبْنَا الْعَزْلَ، فَأَرَدْنَا أَنْ نَعْزِلَ، وَقُلْنَا نَعْزِلُ وَرَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم بَيْنَ أَظْهُرِنَا قَبْلَ أَنْ نَسْأَلَهُ فَسَأَلْنَاهُ عَنْ ذَلِكَ فَقَالَ ‏"‏ مَا عَلَيْكُمْ أَنْ لاَ تَفْعَلُوا، مَا مِنْ نَسَمَةٍ كَائِنَةٍ إِلَى يَوْمِ الْقِيَامَةِ إِلاَّ وَهْىَ كَائِنَةٌ ‏"‏‏.‏

Source: http://www.al-eman.com/

It doesn't seem like the translation was wrong . The blue part (emphasis is mine) is the wordings of the Prophet .

Rape is strictly forbidden in Islam. According to Islamic law it is classified as Hirabah, or violent crime under a category of causing disorder in the land due to Qur'an ordinances about those who create anarchy. In the above hadith, (it is assumed that) the consent of both persons was neccessary for the act of sex.

It may also be noted that it was a custom that many women actually put on their finest dresses and ornaments previous to an military engagement, in the hope of finding favor in the eyes of their captors in case of a defeat. ((John McClintock, James Strong, "Cyclopædia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature" [Harper & Brothers, 1894], p. 782))

The problem is many hate-websites do not understand the context and the hadith properly, but try to serve their own agenda.

According to Imam Shaafi'i:

"If a man acquires by force a slave-girl, then has sexual intercourse with her after he acquires her by force, and if he is not excused by ignorance, then the slave-girl will be taken from him, he is required to pay the fine, and he will receive the punishment for illegal sexual intercourse." (Imam Al Shaafi'i, Kitaabul Umm, Volume 3, page 253)

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Regards

A-ManESL said:

Rape is strictly forbidden in Islam. According to Islamic law it is classified as Hirabah, or violent crime under a category of causing disorder in the land due to Qur'an ordinances about those who create anarchy. In the above hadith, (it is assumed that) the consent of both persons was neccessary for the act of sex.

It may also be noted that it was a custom that many women actually put on their finest dresses and ornaments previous to an military engagement, in the hope of finding favor in the eyes of their captors in case of a defeat. ((John McClintock, James Strong, "Cyclopædia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature" [Harper & Brothers, 1894], p. 782))

The problem is many hate-websites do not understand the context and the hadith properly, but try to serve their own agenda.

According to Imam Shaafi'i:



Regards

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Those Ahadeeth didn't mention that the captives gave their consents or agreements for sex , rather it is said that 'we desired women and celibacy became hard on us' or 'we desired them, for we were suffering from the absence of our wives' .

Secondly , sex without marriage is also a great sin , it doesn't matter if there is any agreement between both parties but sex outside marriage is Zina , hence implies the capital punishment .

The fact that these ahadeeth didnt mention consent does not imply that consent was not there. Its simply absence of evidence. On the other hand there is a multitude of evidence for treating slaves/captives with kindness and prohibiting their exploitation. The problem is that without proper understanding of the science of hadeeth, deductions often are flawed.

Secondly sex without marriage is a great sin is your opinion. Sex outside marriage is allowed in certain cases in traditional Islam. (Not that I have anything for or against your opinion). Also take a look here.

Regards

Union said:

Define what you want to mean by ulama ?

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don't worry about it, if you don't know what i asked or what that word means then i don't need to go further.

A-ManESL said:

The fact that these ahadeeth didnt mention consent does not imply that consent was not there. Its simply absence of evidence. On the other hand there is a multitude of evidence for treating slaves/captives with kindness and prohibiting their exploitation. The problem is that without proper understanding of the science of hadeeth, deductions often are flawed.

Secondly sex without marriage is a great sin is your opinion. Sex outside marriage is allowed in certain cases in traditional Islam. (Not that I have anything for or against your opinion). Also take a look here.

Regards

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It is quite illogical to imagine anything that doesn't present in the Hadeeth . Then anybody can fly on the wings of imagination to change anything they want . Moreover , the Hadeeth said that the Muslim militant was desperate for sex . Hence it is clear that it was one sided wish . Also , how can it be possible to imagine that the captive women willingly offer themselves for sex to their own enemies whom they have seen to slaughter their husbands and friends ? No women in the world will submit to the killer of their husbands and relatives , unless they force them , which is called rape , nothing else . Hence , specifically in this case/incident Muslim militant didn't show the kindness to their captives rather they gave priority to their filthy desire of sex .
And science of Hadeeth has nothing to do , specifically in this case .

Sex without marriage is immortal in Qur'an , it may be allowed in traditional Sunni or Shia Islam , who follow and practice hadeeth strongly . It actually draws a clear line between the Islam presented in the Qur'an and as presented in Hadeeth . Hadeeth may can report that the Prophet had sex with Maria but Qur'an doesn't permit that nor can give any idea that Prophet might can do it .

Qur'an approved sex only after marriage . For the Ma Malakat Ayminukum , ALLAH's (swt) instructs to marry them :

4.25 [FONT=&quot] ومن لم يستطع منكم طولا ان ينكح المحصنات المؤمنات فمن ماملكت ايمانكم من فتياتكم المؤمنات والله اعلم بايمانكم بعضكم من بعض فانكحوهن باذن اهلهن واتوهن اجورهن بالمعروف محصنات غير مسافحات ولامتخذات اخدان فاذا احصن فان اتين بفاحشة فعليهن نصف ماعلى المحصنات من العذاب ذلك لمن خشى العنت منكم وان تصبروا خير لكم والله غفور رحيم[/FONT]

[004:025] If any of you have not the means wherewith to wed free believing women, they may wed believing girls from among those whom your right hands possess: And God hath full knowledge about your faith. Ye are one from another: Wed them with the leave of their owners, and give them their dowers, according to what is reasonable: They should be chaste, not lustful, nor taking paramours: when they are taken in wedlock, if they fall into shame, their punishment is half that for free women. This (permission) is for those among you who fear sin; but it is better for you that ye practise self-restraint. And God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

Hence , there is no problem doing sex with them but after marry them . If you do not marry , the instruction of GOD is to maintain the chastity :

[024:033] Let those who find not the wherewithal for marriage keep themselves chaste, until God gives them means out of His grace. And if any of your slaves ask for a deed in writing (to enable them to earn their freedom for a certain sum), give them such a deed if ye know any good in them: yea, give them something yourselves out of the means which God has given to you. But force not your maids to prostitution when they desire chastity, in order that ye may make a gain in the goods of this life. But if anyone compels them, yet, after such compulsion, is God, Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful (to them),

Thanks .

Union said:

It is quite illogical to imagine anything that doesn't present in the Hadeeth .

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Then why did you imagine that the women didn't give their consent and were raped ?!! , that doesn't present in the Hadith either

maro said:

Then why did you imagine that the women didn't give their consent and were raped ?!! , that doesn't present in the Hadith either

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Salam sis . I didn't imagine so , but it is there in those reports . But before showing you that I like to ask , as you are a woman , a question . Please answer me as a wife and/or mother and/or sister and/or a daughter , if in a battle a woman's husband and/or children and/or brother and/or father is/are killed by the enemies , can she be agree to have sex with the killer of her beloved one in the same battle field when her beloved's dead body and blood still lying in the ground ? Please answer me this as a woman not as a member of RF or a debater .

Secondly , do you think sex outside marriage is permitted in Islam ?

Now , look at that Hadeeth again , you will find your answer :

'we received captives from among the Arab captives and we desired women and celibacy became hard on us ...'

'took captive some excellent Arab women; and we desired them, for we were suffering from the absence of our wives,....'

Union said:

Salam sis . I didn't imagine so , but it is there in those reports

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No ,it's not

. But before showing you that I like to ask , as you are a woman , a question . Please answer me as a wife and/or mother and/or sister and/or a daughter , if in a battle a woman's husband and/or children and/or brother and/or father is/are killed by the enemies , can she be agree to have sex with the killer of her beloved one in the same battle field when her beloved's dead body and blood still lying in the ground ? Please answer me this as a woman not as a member of RF or a debater .

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well , Raids and captivity were very common between the arabian tribes..and it was the rule for females of the losing tribe to accept partners from the winning tribe after losing the man who provides for the family

that's why the Hadith has to be read in its historical context to be properly understood

Secondly , do you think sex outside marriage is permitted in Islam ?

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yes , with whom the quran calls " What your right hand possess "....meaning (the female captives)

Now , look at that Hadeeth again , you will find your answer :

'we received captives from among the Arab captives and we desired women and celibacy became hard on us ...'

'took captive some excellent Arab women; and we desired them, for we were suffering from the absence of our wives,....'

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does "desire" mean "rape " ?!!!

maro said:

No ,it's not

well , Raids and captivity were very common between the arabian tribes..and it was the rule for females of the losing tribe to accept partners from the winning tribe after losing the man who provides for the family

that's why the Hadith has to be read in its historical context to be properly understood

yes , with whom the quran calls " What your right hand possess "....meaning (the female captives)

does "desire" mean "rape " ?!!!

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O k , I have recieved already an infraction from the moderator for breaking rule no. 10 , hence i am no longer going to debate here . Only to mention you that mma are not subject of sex in Qur'an , rather they should be married [ref.4:25]. Qur'an never permitted sex without marrying . Thanks.

Union said:

O k , I have recieved already an infraction from the moderator for breaking rule no. 10 , hence i am no longer going to debate here . Only to mention you that mma are not subject of sex in Qur'an , rather they should be married [ref.4:25]. Qur'an never permitted sex without marrying . Thanks.

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وَالَّذينَ هُم لِفُروجِهِم حـٰفِظونَ ﴿٥﴾ إِلّا عَلىٰ أَزوٰجِهِم أَو ما مَلَكَت أَيمـٰنُهُم فَإِنَّهُم غَيرُ مَلومينَ ﴿٦﴾

5.And they who guard their private parts 6.Except from their wives or those their right hands possess, for indeed, they will not be blamed

Tafsir ibn Kathir:
وَالَّذِينَ هُمْ لِفُرُوجِهِمْ حَـفِظُونَ - إِلاَّ عَلَى أَزْوَجِهِمْ أَوْ مَا مَلَكَتْ أَيْمَـنُهُمْ فَإِنَّهُمْ غَيْرُ مَلُومِينَ - فَمَنِ ابْتَغَى وَرَآءَ ذلِكَ فَأُوْلَـئِكَ هُمُ الْعَادُونَ ﴾(And those who guard their private parts. Except from their wives and their right hand possessions, for then, they are free from blame. But whoever seeks beyond that, then those are the transgressors.) means, those who protect their private parts from unlawful actions and do not do that which Allah has forbidden; fornication , and do not approach anyone except the wives whom Allah has made permissible for them or their right hand possessions from the captives. One who seeks what Allah has made permissible for him is not to be blamed and there is no sin on him. Allah says:
﴿فَإِنَّهُمْ غَيْرُ مَلُومِينَفَمَنِ ابْتَغَى وَرَآءَ ذلِكَ﴾
(they are free from blame. But whoever seeks beyond that) meaning, other than a wife or slave girl,
﴿فَأُوْلَـئِكَ هُمُ الْعَادُونَ﴾
(then those are the transgressors.) meaning , aggressors