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Is Judas Iscariot in heaven?

javajo

Well-Known Member
@ Gjallarhorn:

My point exactly. I think the whole Judas-as-villain thing was concocted by the early church leaders (along with a lot of other silliness), probably at the Council of Nicaea, which determined which books would be in the bible,and which would be banned declared heretical. There is a gospel of Judas which paints him in a completely different light.
What about the Old Testament Prophecies concerning Judas?

Jesus was betrayed by a friend's (Judas') kiss, who broke bread with him in fulfillment of: “Even my own familiar friend in whom I trusted, who ate my bread, has lifted up his heel against me.” (Psalm 41:9)

Judas betrayed Jesus for 30 pieces of silver which was thrown down in the temple and used to buy a potter's field in fulfillment of: And I said unto them, If ye think good, give me my price; and if not, forbear. So they weighed for my price thirty pieces of silver. And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter: a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD[SIZE=+0]. ([/SIZE]Zechariah 11:12-13)

(Also, it was written in Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.)
 

Protester

Active Member
JavaJo has good points!

Matthew 27

1Now when morning had come, all the chief priests and the elders of the people took counsel against Jesus to put him to death: 2and they bound him, and led him away, and delivered him up to Pontius Pilate, the governor. 3Then Judas, who betrayed him, when he saw that Jesus was condemned, felt remorse, and brought back the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, 4saying, “I have sinned in that I betrayed innocent blood.”

But they said, “What is that to us? You see to it.”

5He threw down the pieces of silver in the sanctuary, and departed. He went away and hanged himself. 6The chief priests took the pieces of silver, and said, “It’s not lawful to put them into the treasury, since it is the price of blood.” 7They took counsel, and bought the potter’s field with them, to bury strangers in. 8Therefore that field was called “The Field of Blood” to this day. 9Then that which was spoken through Jeremiah the prophet was fulfilled, saying,
“They took the thirty pieces of silver,
the price of him upon whom a price had been set,
whom some of the children of Israel priced,
10and they gave them for the potter’s field,
as the Lord commanded me.”
---World English Bible



(Jamison, Fausset, and Brown Commentary (1871)
Matthew 27:4:

4. Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood—What a testimony this to Jesus! Judas had been with Him in all circumstances for three years; his post, as treasurer to Him and the Twelve (Joh 12:6), gave him peculiar opportunity of watching the spirit, disposition, and habits of his Master; while his covetous nature and thievish practices would incline him to dark and suspicious, rather than frank and generous, interpretations of all that He said and did. If, then, he could have fastened on one questionable feature in all that he had so long witnessed, we may be sure that no such speech as this would ever have escaped his lips, nor would he have been so stung with remorse as not to be able to keep the money and survive his crime.
And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that—"Guilty or innocent is nothing to us: We have Him now—begone!" Was ever speech more hellish uttered?

5. And he cast down the pieces of silver—The sarcastic, diabolical reply which he had got, in place of the sympathy which perhaps he expected, would deepen his remorse into an agony.
in the temple—the temple proper, commonly called "the sanctuary," or "the holy place," into which only the priests might enter. How is this to be explained? Perhaps he flung the money in after them. But thus were fulfilled the words of the prophet—"I cast them to the potter in the house of the Lord" (Zec 11:13).
and departed, and went and hanged himself—For the details, see on Ac 1:18.


I heard some commentators said that Judas was a Zealot and he expected Christ to lead either a human army or a super natural one to throw the Romans out of Israel. When this didn't happen he was going to force Christ to carry this out. He had no understanding of Christ's purpose on Earth, even if he had been with him constantly for three years.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
karl r said:
You seem offended that the bible and church writing do not meet the standards you would expect from journalism or academia. Those journalistic standards are less than 200 years old, and the sholastic standards are only a few hundred years older. The bible (and early church writings) predates them by over 1,000 years.

You're offended that the church distorts historical information?
"History will be kind to me, for I intend to write it."
- Winston Churchill

Everyone who writes historical information distorts it.

If you actually study history, then you would know that you need to rely on more than just 1 source. The more independent sources you rely on, the chance that you could verify if what is true and what is not.

Not only that, it is possible to use archaeological evidences to verify the historical accounts.

Of course, not all historians will attempt to verify what they investigate, read or know.

I am sure you have played a game where you have dozen or so people in line, and you whisper a message or something to one person's ear, who will attempt to pass on your message to the next person. Your original message will either get lost in the passing or change dramatically by the time it get to the end of the line.

That's how traditions work. Tradition can be even more unreliable than history, because exaggeration is more pervasive than relying on historical accounts when the following generation(s). Also tradition will lose something in successive tellings over time or even generations, until the original story is lost. Often when tradition is written, it doesn't rely on the eyewitnesses or sources that have been verified.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
karl r said:
You've demonstrated the tenuous evidence people rely upon when they say that Mary Magdalene was a prostitute.

I am not the one saying she is prostitute.

karl r said:
You've pointed out that there's insufficient evidence to prove that she was a prostitute, or that she was Mary of Bethany. (And I agree that there's not enough evidence to prove whether Mary Magdalene was a prostitute.) But insufficient evidence is insufficient evidence. It doesn't prove that the claim is wrong.

You're wrong. If there was "insufficient evidence", there would be some tenuous evidence, but such evidence would not be conclusive. That's how I understand "insufficient evidence".

But looking at the all 4 gospels, there is absolutely no link to her (Mary Magdalene) being a prostitute, hence there are no textual evidences. The proper words for this would "absence of evidence".

As I said before, Mary Magdalene appeared as witness to Jesus' crucifixion and the "risen" Jesus. And her background is come from Galilee, and followed Jesus along with some other women (Luke 8:1-3).
Luke 8:1-3 said:
After this, Jesus traveled about from one town and village to another, proclaiming the good news of the kingdom of God. The Twelve were with him, 2 and also some women who had been cured of evil spirits and diseases: Mary (called Magdalene) from whom seven demons had come out; 3 Joanna the wife of Chuza, the manager of Herod’s household; Susanna; and many others. These women were helping to support them out of their own means.

And lastly, she was the one who had 7 demons exorcise from her (Mark 16:9; Luke 8:2, see the above quote).

Mark 16:9 said:
When Jesus rose early on the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had driven seven demons.

That's all the information there are about Mary Magdalene.

karl r said:
Like Pope Gregory I, you're making a claim based on too little evidence. (And it's possible that he had access to information that has been lost since.) If it's a mistake when the church does it, why isn't it be a mistake when you do it?

No, because Gregory I made assumption about MM's identity. Gregory I identified MM with Mary of Bethany, which the Vatican has rejected. He also identified her with the sinful woman of Luke 7:36-50, which the Vatican also now rejected.

It is possible that you are confusing Mary Magdalene with Mary of Bethany (like Pope Gregory I).

Mary of Bethany was the sister of Martha and Lazarus. According to John 12:1-11, Mary had anointed Jesus' feet in her brother's home at Bethany, like in episode of the sinful woman in the home of Simon the Pharisee (Luke 7:36-50). However, this event in Luke, take place in most likely in a town in Galilee (perhaps Capernaum (7:1) or Nain (7:11)), not in Bethany, and the sinful woman is never named. The sinful woman could be adulteress or a prostitute, but Luke said which.

Mary of Bethany was also never said to be prostitute, despite the anointing of Jesus' feet with perfume and oil.

Also John's version of anointing Jesus' feet at Bethany contradicts the versions presented by Matthew (26:6:13) and Mark (14:1-9), which say Jesus' head was anointed. Also the woman is never named in Matthew's and Mark's, and it was in the home of Simon the Leper, not Lazarus'.

And Luke left out Jesus' anointing in Bethany altogether.

So which version of Bethany is true? John's? Or Matthew's and Mark's?

Do you think Mary Magdalene and Mary of Bethany are the same person?

Note, that I actually did a thread on Mary Magdalene and Mary of Bethany, called The two Marys.
 
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gnostic

The Lost One
Judging by the story in the gospels, I don't think Judas expect that Jesus would be sentenced to death. I don't think he knew of the consequence of his action and greed. If that is true, then he was remorseful and he was trying to repent with his death.

On the other hand, the Gospel of Judas seemed to indicate Judas knew of Jesus' plan and that he was part of that plan. If that's true, then Judas was only obeying Jesus. To me, that seemed far more logical than what took place in the canonical gospels.
 

krsnaraja

Active Member
As everyone know Judas Iscariot was one of the 12 apostles, but betrayed Jesus for some silver coins, which eventually led to Jesus being crucified, death and resurrection. It would seem that Judas was destined or fated to betray Jesus, so he had no choice but to play the role he was given.

Judas' "betrayer" role was essential to the outcome for all 4 gospels. And essentially Judas was doing God's work. If this is true then he was just as important as the other apostles, including Simon Peter.

Without Judas there would be no betrayal and possibly no crucifixion, and the event may have played differently.

So my questions are these:

Did Judas Iscariot went to heaven? Or did he go to hell?

How would you know where he went or how he was "judged"?​


I always believed the Passion of the Christ was a stage play. Mel Gibson made big bucks out of it. Judas Iscariot & Christ Jesus were dear close friends from the start. Later they came with a good script. Judas betraying Jesus. At the last supper, Jesus knew among his disciple who will betray him. Simply because both have already rehearsed their roles in that play. Jesus & Judas are now playing golf in heaven.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
krsnaraja said:
I always believed the Passion of the Christ was a stage play. Mel Gibson made big bucks out of it. Judas Iscariot & Christ Jesus were dear close friends from the start. Later they came with a good script. Judas betraying Jesus. At the last supper, Jesus knew among his disciple who will betray him. Simply because both have already rehearsed their roles in that play. Jesus & Judas are now playing golf in heaven.

I haven't seen the movie, so I wouldn't know what roles Jesus and Judas Iscariot played.
 

javajo

Well-Known Member
Jesus & Judas are now playing golf in heaven.
Jesus said of Judas:

Matthew 26:24
The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.

Judas had the sorrow that lead him to his death, not godly sorrow unto repentance to salvation:

2 Corinthians 7:10
For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
 

SageTree

Spiritual Friend
Premium Member
I always believed the Passion of the Christ was a stage play. Mel Gibson made big bucks out of it. Judas Iscariot & Christ Jesus were dear close friends from the start. Later they came with a good script. Judas betraying Jesus. At the last supper, Jesus knew among his disciple who will betray him. Simply because both have already rehearsed their roles in that play. Jesus & Judas are now playing golf in heaven.


Have you by chance ever read 'The Last Temptation of Christ' by Nikos Kazantzakis ?

Judas and Jesus have a very different and similarly special relationship in the book as well.

Wonder where Mel got the idea? ;)
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
Jesus said of Judas:

Matthew 26:24
The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.
this is curious....
very curious...this passage contradicts jesus' purpose to provide for atonement....jesus the man seems to be pretty upset that he's going to be turned into the authorities for claiming who he was and having to be the atonement...if he was who he said he was then it wasn't blasphemy but jesus seems to be subjected to mans judgment of him...very curious.

Judas had the sorrow that lead him to his death, not godly sorrow unto repentance to salvation:

2 Corinthians 7:10
For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
apparently the sorrow jesus had for mankind wasn't godly since he sacrificed himself to himself
 

gnostic

The Lost One
javajo said:
Jesus said of Judas:

Matthew 26:24
The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.

Judas had the sorrow that lead him to his death, not godly sorrow unto repentance to salvation:

2 Corinthians 7:10
For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.

What Jesus said in Matthew doesn't mean he was condemning Judas, javajo. If Jesus is what he is, and practice what he preach, then wouldn't he forgive the one who would betray him? After all, Judas was fulfilling his part of the whole Jesus' martyr episode.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
What Jesus said in Matthew doesn't mean he was condemning Judas, javajo. If Jesus is what he is, and practice what he preach, then wouldn't he forgive the one who would betray him? After all, Judas was fulfilling his part of the whole Jesus' martyr episode.

that makes sense and is in tune with what jesus preached...
judas was the fall guy, someone had to turn jesus in...which is sort of inconsistent to begin with, being that jesus' purpose was to provide atonement.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
javajo said:
What about the Old Testament Prophecies concerning Judas?

Jesus was betrayed by a friend's (Judas') kiss, who broke bread with him in fulfillment of: “Even my own familiar friend in whom I trusted, who ate my bread, has lifted up his heel against me.” (Psalm 41:9)

It is quite possible that this verse referred to Absalom, David's son, who rebelled against him. Or possibly Joab son of Zeruiah.
 
As everyone know Judas Iscariot was one of the 12 apostles, but betrayed Jesus for some silver coins, which eventually led to Jesus being crucified, death and resurrection. It would seem that Judas was destined or fated to betray Jesus, so he had no choice but to play the role he was given.

Judas' "betrayer" role was essential to the outcome for all 4 gospels. And essentially Judas was doing God's work. If this is true then he was just as important as the other apostles, including Simon Peter.

Without Judas there would be no betrayal and possibly no crucifixion, and the event may have played differently.

So my questions are these:

Did Judas Iscariot went to heaven? Or did he go to hell?

How would you know where he went or how he was "judged"?​

Judas Iscariot was by no means predestined to betray Jesus.Judas did so by his own doing.If it would not have been Judas,it would have been someone else.God does not set you up to fail.Judas Iscariot is not in heaven or hell.He is in the grave.Heaven is only for those who have heavenly hope.Those blessed with God's holy spirit.There is no literal place of fire and torment where people are tortured for all eternity.There is only the grave.The wage for sin is death.Those who have died and are forgiven await a resurrection.Those who do not have forgiveness only have eternal damnation by way of no resurrection.Ones that fall into this category would be those such as: Adam and Eve,the Israelites that were destroyed by fire from God during Moses time,the Pharisees who blasphemed against the holy spirt and Judas Iscariot.
 
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