Birth Control

LOL, Cerwiden.....you are preaching to the choir.......I personally would not use NFP because I don't consider it the most effective birth control method...at least for me!
I have no problem with NFP...if that is what a person wants to use with knowledge of the potential risks but then, again, I have no problem with people using condoms,, IUD's, birth control pills or abstinence. I believe it to be an individual choice based on one's personal thoughts, beliefs or culture.

As for my question "should the state (I meant government in general) have the right to mandate the form of birth control a couple uses?" Your response..why do you think it would matter to the state.......well, isn't the pro-life movement in this country dedicated to making any form of abortion (which includes the use of abortifacients such as the IUD or pill) illegal?

Ahhhhhh..the problem with both birth control and the abortion issue is that there are so many varying beliefs......I can't imagine how it can be legislated.........I think it needs to be left up to the individual, his conscience, his MD and his God (if she is a beleiver in a Supreme Being)

Ceridwen018 said:

I see all this as absolutely ridiculous. The purpose of NFP is to prevent pregnancy. What is the harm of using a condom or the pill, when their purpose is the exact same? NFP is just another form of contraceptive, and it's almost like Catholics don't want to face that. There is nothing different between NFP and more popular contraceptives, excepting for the facts that NFP has an incredibly lower success rate and takes a huge amount of work.

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I would have to agree.... I wish that we could focus less on things like this and more on theological issues.... (although the reasoning here could be said to be theological...)

It is too easy to wag a finger when something tangible is in question..... use the pill and that's a sin, yes, but who is to say that it would not be worse if the same person were to not use birth control but did not understand or care about core Catholic issues like the Papacy or the Trinity for example....?

Oh well..... I guess that's why I love my Church..... they get to handle all the hard questions, and I just have to try and understand them!!!

Peace,
Scott

read city of God by st. mary of agreda. in it u will find evidence that a male soul is infused on the average of 20 days after conception and a female 40 days. also, test tube fertilization seldom if ever works because of this.

That's just the ramblings of a Catholic saint; it has nothing to do with truth. No direct revelation has ever been received by anyone concerning when the spirit enters the body.

she has no reason to lie, and i would rather believe her than u

It's all propaganda. If it said that men didn't get their souls until 40 days, but women got them at 20, then it would deserve more of a look I think. As is however, it is excruciatingly cliche.

What does this have to do with test tube fertilization?

every institution has it's propoganda, governments, churches, families, etc. it takes a lot of faith to believe in what's good and true.

so far none if any babies have been successfully implanted in women that were fertilized in a test tube. i suggest this is true because of what mary, the mother of God told mary of agreda.

it takes a lot of faith to believe in what's good and true.

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I would say it just takes common sense...but then again, I'm not trying to believe in Christianity here.

so far none if any babies have been successfully implanted in women that were fertilized in a test tube. i suggest this is true because of what mary, the mother of God told mary of agreda.

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Well, why don't you pull your nose out of your bible for about 5 minutes and try to get in touch with reality. I'm sorry if I sound harsh, but the fact of the matter is is that test tube fertilization has been a successful option for couples with conception problems for the pat 25 years. MILLIONS of babies have been conceived through INV, and then successfully planted in their mother's uterus.

What kind of scientist are you??

i think i see a lot in christianity how they try to answer every question and give answers like a know it all, or label it a mystery. 20 years, 40 years??? okay...talk about random. is there a reason behind this?

Ceridwen018-
Millions sounds a bit high, I would guess more in the hundreds of thousands

Some stats on the IVF success rates in Canada for the year 2000
Fertility statistics in Canada:

* Percentage of infertile couples who decide against treatment: about 50
* Percentage of infertility patients treated with medication or surgery: 80 to 90
* Percentage of infertility patients treated with advanced methods such as in vitro fertilization (IVF): 5
* Cost of one IVF procedure: $5,000 and up
* Cost of drugs for one IVF cycle: $2,000 to $3,500
* Overall success rate per IVF cycle in Canada (i.e. live birth): 20 %
* IVF treatment cycles reported in Canada in 2000: 4,896
* IVF babies born in Canada in 2000: 1,812
* IVF live birth rate for women under 35: 26 %
* IVF live birth rate for women 35 to 39: 20 %
* IVF live birth rate for women 40 and older: 8 %
* IVF centres in Canada: 23
* IVF centres in the United States: 383
( this info thanks to: http://www.fotf.ca/familyfacts/issues/bioethics/stats.html )

for more info on IFV success and other IFV stats go to the CDC web site at:
http://www.cdc.gov/reproductivehealth/art.htm

Anyway IFV is a proven success, while it has its problems, like multiple births and some increase in infection it certenly isn't prevented by absence of a god implanted soul.

To say it has never been done successfully is silly.

wa:do

Millions sounds a bit high, I would guess more in the hundreds of thousands

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I read 'millions' somewhere, but you're probably right. Given those stats you provided (and I'm sure the US isn't much different as far as sucess/fail percentages go) thousands makes more sense.

The basic point is the same though. IVF, for what it is, has been very successful.

i know of couples it didn't work for. don't know any it did. i just assumed it is a failure, and probably is in most cases. it's very expensive. we use artificial insemination in animals. sounds silly for humans.

what makes you think we are better than animals? we are in fact worse. we drink milk from a cows breast and eat loads of meat and we still have dogs and cats for pets. hypocrites we are.

GOD through HIS Word says that we are above the animals. Man was created in the image of GOD and placed in domination over the rest of the living creatures. See Genesis 1:26 and Psalms 8:5-8. On what bases do you pass your judgements?

yeah, we used c-sections on animals too.... sounds silly to use it on people.

wa:do

i know of couples it didn't work for. don't know any it did. i just assumed it is a failure, and probably is in most cases. it's very expensive. we use artificial insemination in animals. sounds silly for humans.

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Of course there are going to be couples that it doesn't work for--it, like everything else, is not a 100% sure thing. How many couples do you know that it failed for? And also, why would you, as a science teacher, make a huge assumption like that?

i've read about the high failure rate in scientific reports.

yes, but you didn't say that there was a high rate of failure you said:

trishtrish10 said:

so far none if any babies have been successfully implanted in women that were fertilized in a test tube

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while scientific reports tell about the many successes that IVF has had over the years. The procedure is only getting more accurate and higher in success...

if you had really been keeping an open scientific mind about the procedure and been paying attention to the scientific reports for the past 20 odd years you wouldn't have jumped to such an erronious assumption as "it never works".....

but hey natural conception has a high failure rate as well... thats why we get to try over and over and over....

wa:do

dude, technology has made soo much progress in the last 30 years, from chips getting smaller and holding 100 times as much info. from brick phones to tiny cell phones. i wouldnt be surprised that men would be able to have babies in the next 50 years or so. i bet my allowance on it.

"

GOD through HIS Word says that we are above the animals. Man was created in the image of GOD and placed in domination over the rest of the living creatures. See Genesis 1:26 and Psalms 8:5-8. On what bases do you pass your judgements?"

as a citizen of this world. thats my judgement. i treat all species with respect. no one is higher or below. we are all equal citizens of this world.

just because we are higher in the food chain doesnt mean we *think* we are above everything else.

what makes you think that every single word of the bible is divinly inspired? you give your faith into that? you give your faith into child molesting priests (not to mention some of them are gay)? you give your faith into (possibly) a writer with a vivid imagination who wrote a book included in the bible?