The 1000 year reign of Christ

james2ko · Jan 8, 2011

Pegg said:
“The heavens and the earth that are now are stored up for fire and are being reserved to the day of judgment and of destruction of the ungodly men.” 2 Peter 3:7 Why would God need to, or want to, destroy heaven?

The word "heavens" has multiple applications. It can refer to our atmosphere: Gen 1:20; Job 35:11; Psa 68:8; Psa 147:8; Col 1:23.. many more

Outer space:Gen 1:14-15,17; Psa 36:5 and possibly here: Isa 42:5; Isa 45:12; Isa 48:13; Isa 51:13; Jer 10:12

God's dwelling place: 2 Co 12:2 many others.

The same Greek word for "heavens" in vs 7 is used in vs 12. In its context, it is refers to our atmosphere. 2 Pe 3:7, 12 indicate the heavens [atmosphere] and the earth will be eliminated and burned, respectively. This is evidenced by the fact there will be no more sea (Rev 21:1). Science tells us the atmosphere and oceans work in ecological harmony. One cannot exist without the other!! Could this be the "New Heavens and New Earth"--one without oceans or atmosphere? Time will tell...

Beta · Jan 9, 2011

Yes 2Pet.3v10-13 seems to indicate that our Planet Earth will one day become a ball of fire on which no physical life will exist. Therefore we are to become a different Being v11 (spirit).
JW (Pegg) may have some difficulty here because their belief is of an eternal human existance on Earth.
Traditional Christians also may find this confusing since they believe the dead leave this Earth and go to Heaven.
The New Heaven spoken of in Rev.21 will be right here on this Planet.
What do you think james ?

Pegg · Jan 9, 2011

james2ko said:
The word "heavens" has multiple applications. It can refer to our atmosphere: Gen 1:20; Job 35:11; Psa 68:8; Psa 147:8; Col 1:23.. many more

Outer space:Gen 1:14-15,17; Psa 36:5 and possibly here: Isa 42:5; Isa 45:12; Isa 48:13; Isa 51:13; Jer 10:12

God's dwelling place: 2 Co 12:2 many others.

The same Greek word for "heavens" in vs 7 is used in vs 12. In its context, it is refers to our atmosphere. 2 Pe 3:7, 12 indicate the heavens [atmosphere] and the earth will be eliminated and burned, respectively. This is evidenced by the fact there will be no more sea (Rev 21:1). Science tells us the atmosphere and oceans work in ecological harmony. One cannot exist without the other!! Could this be the "New Heavens and New Earth"--one without oceans or atmosphere? Time will tell...

so you really think the sky is going to be burned up? literally???

Beta · Jan 9, 2011

Pegg said:
so you really think the sky is going to be burned up? literally???

Hi , I know you did not ask me but the way I see it can mean an atmosphere around this planet consisting of immense heat due to the fire - something similar to the sun. No life could exist in such an environment were our Planet to become like it. Even here on earth so many light-years from the sun we can still suffer from it's rays.

Pegg · Jan 9, 2011

Beta said:
Hi , I know you did not ask me but the way I see it can mean an atmosphere around this planet consisting of immense heat due to the fire - something similar to the sun. No life could exist in such an environment were our Planet to become like it. Even here on earth so many light-years from the sun we can still suffer from it's rays.

you dont think that it is symbolic in any way???

i mean, peter even shows what the destruction will be when he says "the heavens and the earth that are now are stored up for fire and are being reserved to the day of judgment and of destruction of the ungodly men.2 Peter 3:3-7.

do you not see how he says 'the heaven and earth that are now...are reserved for the judgment of the ungodly men"
The heavens and earth are the 'ungodly men' .... to me this is the destruction of people...not the planet or the atmosphere.

Beta · Jan 9, 2011

Pegg said:
you dont think that it is symbolic in any way???

i mean, peter even shows what the destruction will be when he says "the heavens and the earth that are now are stored up for fire and are being reserved to the day of judgment and of destruction of the ungodly men.2 Peter 3:3-7.

do you not see how he says 'the heaven and earth that are now...are reserved for the judgment of the ungodly men"
The heavens and earth are the 'ungodly men' .... to me this is the destruction of people...not the planet or the atmosphere.

To me this is not symbolic but then I take most of the Bible as literal (not everything).
And as I understand 2Pet.3 to be literal the Planet Earth is not being destoyed but changed to a ball of fire - so it will still be here.
But the wicked, ungodly or unrepentant sinners will be destroyed in that fire (lake of) because they are still human and physical and combustible.
The Holy Spirit is eternal and given to converted man will not be affected by fire. Does not God say HE is a consuming fire (for a purpose) ? (not meaning that is his only presence).

james2ko · Jan 9, 2011

Pegg said:
so you really think the sky is going to be burned up? literally???

Read my statement carefully. I said the "atmosphere and the earth will be eliminated and burned, RESPECTIVELY." Respectively is an adverb used when enumerating two or more items or facts that refer back to a previous statement in the order already mentioned. In my statement, "eliminated" refers to the atmosphere. "Burned" refers to the earth.

james2ko · Jan 9, 2011

Beta said:
Yes 2Pet.3v10-13 seems to indicate that our Planet Earth will one day become a ball of fire on which no physical life will exist. Therefore we are to become a different Being v11 (spirit). JW (Pegg) may have some difficulty here because their belief is of an eternal human existance on Earth.

I was not aware of that thanks for the info. Rev 21:1 is a key verse indicating the impossibility of any physical human life existing. Physical human life cannot be sustained without the oceans or atmosphere. But an immortalized spirit being will have no problem surviving in this environment.

Beta said:
Traditional Christians also may find this confusing since they believe the dead leave this Earth and go to Heaven. The New Heaven spoken of in Rev.21 will be right here on this Planet. What do you think james ?

I'm convinced it will. Ecc 1:4 tells us the earth will abide forever-- and it will, under different physical conditions. In Rev 21:2, John sees the "New Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God..." But where does it wind up? The New Jerusalem, our new home, will descend from heaven and make its final resting place on the earth which, by this time, has been burned and purged of all sin and unrighteousness. This is the baptism by fire John the Baptist spoke of in Mat 3:10-11 and Luk 3:16-17. These events will ensure the prophetic fulfillment of Mal 4:3:

You shall trample the wicked, For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet On the day that I do this," Says the LORD of hosts.

Pegg · Jan 9, 2011

james2ko said:
I was not aware of that thanks for the info. Rev 21:1 is a key verse indicating the impossibility of any physical human life existing. Physical human life cannot be sustained without the oceans or atmosphere. But an immortalized spirit being will have no problem surviving in this environment.

So how do you harmonize the many scriptures indicating an earthly existence?

Psalm 37:10 And just a little while longer, and the wicked one will be no more;
And you will certainly give attention to his place, and he will not be.
11 But the meek ones themselves will possess the earth,
And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace

Isaiah 45:18 " For this is what Jehovah has said, the Creator of the heavens, He the [true] God, the Former of the earth and the Maker of it, He the One who firmly established it, who did not create it simply for nothing, who formed it even to be inhabited"

Matthew 5:5 Happy are the mild-tempered ones, since they will inherit the earth

Psalm 37:29 The righteous themselves will possess the earth,
And they will reside forever upon it

Proverbs 2:21 For the upright are the ones that will reside in the earth, and the blameless are the ones that will be left over in it. 22 As regards the wicked, they will be cut off from the very earth; and as for the treacherous, they will be torn away from it

james2ko · Jan 9, 2011

Pegg said:
So how do you harmonize the many scriptures indicating an earthly existence?

Psalm 37:10 And just a little while longer, and the wicked one will be no more;And you will certainly give attention to his place, and he will not be. 11 But the meek ones themselves will possess the earth,And they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace

Isaiah 45:18 " For this is what Jehovah has said, the Creator of the heavens, He the [true] God, the Former of the earth and the Maker of it, He the One who firmly established it, who did not create it simply for nothing, who formed it even to be inhabited"

Matthew 5:5 Happy are the mild-tempered ones, since they will inherit the earth

Psalm 37:29 The righteous themselves will possess the earth,
And they will reside forever upon it [/I][/COLOR] Proverbs 2:21 For the upright are the ones that will reside in the earth, and the blameless are the ones that will be left over in it.

All of these verses actually compliment the interpretation. Psalms 37:29 tells us the "righteous shall inherit the land [earth] and dwell in it forever." They will inherit the land starting at the beginning of the millenium; through the 1,000 year period; right up to the descension and resting place of the New Jerusalem on the new earth and new heavens forever!!

Pegg said:

22 As regards the wicked, they will be cut off from the very earth; and as for the treacherous, they will be torn away from it[/I][/COLOR]

Click to expand...

The wicked/treacherous would have been destroyed in the lake of fire and in essence be left "outside" the city and cut off from the new heavens and new earth (Rev 22:15).

Pegg · Jan 9, 2011

james2ko said:
All of these verses actually compliment the interpretation. Psalms 37:29 tells us the "righteous shall inherit the land [earth] and dwell in it forever." They will inherit the land starting at the beginning of the millenium; through the 1,000 year period; right up to the descension and resting place of the New Jerusalem on the new earth and new heavens forever!!

you interpretation implies that every inch of the earth will be burned up which would destroy all plant and animal life indiscriminately

The scriptures clearly show that there will be many survivors... so this fire could not be meant literally as no human, good or bad, would survive such a fire. Besides, there is no reason for God to go to such lengths to destroy also the heavens....there is nothing there would need to be destroyed - wicked people (who the context is talking about) do not live in heavens or the atmosphere above the earth

sorry, i just dont think you should be reading this verse literally.

james2ko · Jan 10, 2011

Pegg said:
you interpretation implies that every inch of the earth will be burned up which would destroy all plant and animal life indiscriminately

That's correct. The plant and animal life as we know them today will be destroyed by fire. I wouldn't say indiscriminately for God does nothing in vain. Perhaps with the onset of the New Heavens and Earth God will surprise us with new species of some kind.

Pegg said:
The scriptures clearly show that there will be many survivors... so this fire could not be meant literally as no human, good or bad, would survive such a fire.

That's what I've been trying to tell you. The only "good" human survivors alive after this fire will be composed of spirit. The "bad" would have been cast into it and destroyed.

Pegg said:
Besides, there is no reason for God to go to such lengths to destroy also the heavens....

I can hear God now saying to Pegg, "Who is this who darkens counsel By words without knowledge? Now prepare yourself like a [wo]man; I will question you, and you shall answer Me. "Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding. Job 38:2-4

Pegg said:
there is nothing there would need to be destroyed - wicked people (who the context is talking about) do not live in heavens or the atmosphere above the earth sorry, i just dont think you should be reading this verse literally.

I would have to disagree. Scriptures are clear. There will be no more sea (Rev 21:1). Which science tells us would eliminate the atmosphere [heavens]. Therefore, physical human life can not be sustained. God "usually" follows the physical laws He created. He followed them while refurbishing the earth in Genesis and there is no reason to believe He will do otherwise when it's refurbished in Revelation.

I realize there is some symbolism involved in scripture but in this case, there is no indication of symbolic overtones. You are adding words and meaning into scripture that are simply not there. Just like you do with Rev 20:5. I mean saying the Greek word for 'earth' refers to mankind, and 'heavens' refers to worldly governments and authorities is a bit of a stretch, no?

It's a pity that mankind has allegorized, symbolized, patronized, pasteurized and homogenized God's word into 33,000 + Christian interpretations, when He desired all along for the simple literal meaning to be interpreted.

sniper762 · Jan 10, 2011

beta, we are only about 8 light minutes from the sun, not light years

Big_TJ · Jan 10, 2011

sandy whitelinger said:
Your mistaken.

I began to address his points one by one and asked him to verify them as something other than his own belief. After repeated attempts to get him to substatiate his belief only to be ignored I moved on to another point which he also ignored.

You sir, seem to follow in his footsteps. Only you ignore my points so that you may attempt to belittle me. What a debate technique. :clap

My apologies if my comment seem somewhat belittling; wasnt my intention.

I read the entire thread because I think you were both having a very interesting discussion. However, your tactic dramatically changed during your last few response, and it is clear that you make no attempt to refute his points or to defend yours. I was just pointing out that this the exact modus operandi of christians.

Beta · Jan 10, 2011

sniper762 said:
beta, we are only about 8 light minutes from the sun, not light years

Are you saying you can travel at the speed of light ? wow !

Ben Masada · Jan 10, 2011

Strength & Honor said:
Are there any Christians here on the forums who believe Christ will physically reign a literal 1000 years on earth before it is destroyed? Can anyone here tell me where this idea comes from? Please provide scripture if applicable.

If by Christ you mean Christianity, maybe. But if you mean Jesus, I don't think so. At least as far as the Qohelet is concerned, it is impossible. (Eccl. 9:5,6)

sandy whitelinger · Jan 10, 2011

Big_TJ said:
My apologies if my comment seem somewhat belittling; wasnt my intention.

I read the entire thread because I think you were both having a very interesting discussion. However, your tactic dramatically changed during your last few response, and it is clear that you make no attempt to refute his points or to defend yours. I was just pointing out that this the exact modus operandi of christians.

My tactics changed because James continually refused to verify his points with anything other than hois own thoughts backed up with a cursory knowlege based on a weak attempt to use a concordance.

Pegg · Jan 10, 2011

james2ko said:
I would have to disagree. Scriptures are clear. There will be no more sea (Rev 21:1). Which science tells us would eliminate the atmosphere [heavens]. Therefore, physical human life can not be sustained. God "usually" follows the physical laws He created. He followed them while refurbishing the earth in Genesis and there is no reason to believe He will do otherwise when it's refurbished in Revelation.

the 'sea' is symbolic for people. The same people the context is discussing...the wicked will be no more.
Isaiah 57:20 But the wicked are like the sea that is being tossed, when it is unable to calm down, the waters of which keep tossing up seaweed and mire.

James 1:6-8 "But let him keep on asking in faith, not doubting at all, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven by the wind and blown about. 7 In fact, let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from Jehovah; 8 he is an indecisive man, unsteady in all his ways.

in this verse its not the literal sea...its the sea of mankind.

And here is a messianic prophecy that can be taken literally:
9 Be very joyful, O daughter of Zion. Shout in triumph, O daughter of Jerusalem. Look! Your king himself comes to you. He is righteous, yes, saved; humble, and riding upon an ***, even upon a full-grown animal the son of a she-***....And he will actually speak peace to the nations; and his rulership will be from sea to sea and from the River to the ends of [the] earth"

the messiahs rule will be from sea to sea ... from one end of the earth to the other hence this is literal and it shows that the literal sea will certainly be here during the messiahs rulership.

james2ko · Jan 10, 2011

Pegg said:
the 'sea' is symbolic for people. The same people the context is discussing...the wicked will be no more. Isaiah 57:20 But the wicked are like the sea that is being tossed, when it is unable to calm down, the waters of which keep tossing up seaweed and mire.
James 1:6-8 "But let him keep on asking in faith, not doubting at all, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven by the wind and blown about. 7 In fact, let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from Jehovah; 8 he is an indecisive man, unsteady in all his ways.in this verse its not the literal sea...its the sea of mankind.

These are obvious similes Pegg. This is evident by the verb "like". Remember, literal until proven otherwise. These are good examples that prove otherwise. Now compare your verses above to the one in question:

Rev 21:1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea.

A simile is identified by the words "like", "as", or "than". No indication whatsoever Rev 21:1 is anything but literal. Here's another simile:

Hab 2:14 For the earth will be filled With the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, As the waters cover the sea.

See the difference?

Pegg said:
And here is a messianic prophecy that can be taken literally: 9 Be very joyful, O daughter of Zion. Shout in triumph, O daughter of Jerusalem. Look! Your king himself comes to you. He is righteous, yes, saved; humble, and riding upon an ***, even upon a full-grown animal the son of a she-***....And he will actually speak peace to the nations; and his rulership will be from sea to sea and from the River to the ends of [the] earth"

the messiahs rule will be from sea to sea ... from one end of the earth to the other hence this is literal and it shows that the literal sea will certainly be here during the messiahs rulership.

And I agree. This is a millenial prophecy. The seas will still be around during the millenium. They will disappear sometime after the millenial reign when the New Heavens and New Earth are set up, as indicated by the chronology of Rev 20-21.

Pegg · Jan 11, 2011

james2ko said:
These are obvious similes Pegg. This is evident by the verb "like". Remember, literal until proven otherwise. These are good examples that prove otherwise. Now compare your verses above to the one in question:

Rev 21:1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea.
A simile is identified by the words "like", "as", or "than". No indication whatsoever Rev 21:1 is anything but literal. Here's another simile:

Hab 2:14 For the earth will be filled With the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, As the waters cover the sea.
See the difference?
And I agree. This is a millenial prophecy. The seas will still be around during the millenium. They will disappear sometime after the millenial reign when the New Heavens and New Earth are set up, as indicated by the chronology of Rev 20-21.

no i really cant see how you read it literally. But im not going to debate it, i'll just agree to disagree (yes im giving up

)

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