Let There Be Light and There Was Light

Etritonakin said:

errrrr.....

Nietzsche...

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duly noted. I wonder how God would react to the news that Nietzsche has declared him dead.

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That's a reference to the anthropomorphic god of religions.

Technically, I do not ascribe human attributes to God. God ascribed Godly attributes to humans.

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Here, I agree with you. Who are we to ascribe anything to God? According to Genesis 1:26, as man was created in the image of God's attributes, that was God, metaphorically, ascribing Divine attributes to man.

Also, Satan competes with God for power. God does not compete with Satan for power. God is more powerful than Satan can ever be -due to wisdom and experience -and due to the fact that God was wise enough to limit the power of his creation until he is certain there is no potential danger from his creation.

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God is absolutely One and Incorporeal at that. There is no Satan, but as the concept of evil emanation.

God COULD "overpower" Satan -destroy him, etc... rather easily and quickly, but does not for a purpose. He restrains him from doing this and allows him to do that. Satan is scheduled to be bound in the "bottomless pit" ( a thousand-year "time out", if you will), loosed for a while, then cast into the "lake of fire" (though God would relent and accept him if he would ever truly repent, as is true with God's judgments).

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This is all Pauline rhetoric plagiarized from Greek Mythology.

There is no real competition.

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But of course not! How could there be? Something cannot compute with nothing.

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Etritonakin said:

Are you Jewish by blood -or religion? If religion, what "kind" of Jew are you -or how would you describe your Jewish"ness"?

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Thief said:

Movement is not creation.

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Ben Masada said:

That's a reference to the anthropomorphic god of religions.

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Ben Masada said:

I usually do not cut into the debate when the reply is not to me personally, but this time I must ask the permission of both of you to congratulate Zardoz in his reminding us that Jesus was speaking to a crowd of Jews and not Christians, considering that Christians started only about 30 years later with Paul in Antioch, if one reads and tries to unerstand Acts 11:26.

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Etritonakin said:

...Just curious, because I thought most Jews (by religion, not necessary lineage) believe Satan to be an actual being -initially named Lucifer -one of three archangels (Michael and Gabriel being the other two)...

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Etritonakin said:

I guess maybe so, but it was more so just "humor".

So... do you follow a certain religion -or do you simply believe what you see to be true, regardless of any religion? Are your beliefs similar to any specific religion?

Just curious, because I thought most Jews (by religion, not necessary lineage) believe Satan to be an actual being -initially named Lucifer -one of three archangels (Michael and Gabriel being the other two).

What do you believe Michael and Gabriel represent in the old testament?

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Zardoz said:

My friend, you don't need to ask permission you know I always value your opinions and insights, even if we don't always see things exactly the same way. Me, I'm a crotchety old geezer and likely to spout my opinion on anything and everything, welcome or not...

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Maimonides said:

Ben Masada (Shalom)

Question:

If YHVH is incorporeal then where does this "light" emanate from if, by the definition of light which is a material thing? Or is light considered metaphorical for divine providence....

Baruch Hesham

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Ben Masada said:

How real do you want me to get? I don't think you are in the position to stand reality. How many disciples did Jesus have on that mount before he started his famous sermon? Twelve, I didn't hear you. TWELVE! Thank you. Now, read the impression that he caused at the end of his sermon. It is in Matthew 7:28. The people were astonished at his doctrine. This is from KJV. In the NAB, I have "and the crowds were astonished at his doctrine." Besides, you didn't even have to go to the end of his sermon, the first verse gives the multitudes that motivated Jesus to climb up the mountain and deliver his famous sermon. Now, listen to your Logic. As Jesus saw the multitudes, he went up to the mountain and delivered his speech in the ears of his twelve disciples. At the end, according to Matthew 7:28, the multitudes were astonished at his speech. Now, go ahead and tell me how much sense does it make to you now? And please, commit to memory how real one can be.

Now, regarding Zechariah 12:10, the issue is about the return of the Jews from exile in Babylon. They must have been instructed by the Prophets, especialy Ezekiel, that their exile had been temporary, only 70 years and not rejected forever as Israel was, because God had promised David that Judah would remain forever as a Lamp in Jerusalem. (I King 11:36) And this decision of God had been taken according to Psalm 78:67-69 when Israel had been rejected forever and Judah had been confirmed to stay instead of Israel. Therefore, the returning Jews, in their happiness to start anew in their new life back in Jerusalem, they would look in their memory upon Israel whom they have pierced, and they would mourn for him as one mourns for his only son. How had they pierced Israel? Judah had rejected God's Covenant, according to Isaiah 8:6 and God had doomed Judah to extinction. But for the sake of David, God's judgement sent upon Jacob had lighted upon Israel. (Isa. 9:8) That's how Judah had pierced Israel. Because the doom over Judah had been transferred to Israel, which was removed from existence in Judah's instead.

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ben masada said:

i am jewish and i follow biblical judaism.
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allright said:

First of all Jesus had not even named the twelve disciples at this point. Mathew is not even called to follow him till Mathew chapter 9
Second it clearly states the teaching was for his disciples .
When it was intended for both his disciples and others Mathew says so. Mathew 23: 1 "then Jesus spake to the multitude and to his discilples"

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Yes, it clearly states that Jesus delivered that speech to all the people listening to him. And thank you for your quotation of Matthew 23:1. You only helped me with my assertion that the sermon was to the crowds and not only in the ears of the disciples. Now, you try to think for a change. Matthew 23:1 says that Jesus spoke to the multitude and to his disciples. Now, return to Matthew 5:1. And seeing the multitudes getting ready down the mountainside, his disciples approached him, and he started teaching THEM, saying...(and the sermon went on). And he started teaching them. Them here means all people listening to him: the disciples and the multitudes. The disciples were part of the multitudes. If this is not enough, here is another proof. Read Matthew 7:6. Whom did Jesus advise not to give which is holy to the dogs or their pearls to the swine, to the disciples? You must be out of your mind if you answer positively. The multitudes would have cleared out or thrown some stone at him. The accusation of dogs and swine is too grave an accusation toward Jews. He was referring to the Gentiles whom he had an aversion to.

As for Zachariah, chapter 12 verse 9 says "In that day I will destroy all the nations that come against against Jerusalem" If this Zachariah 12 is speaking of the return from captivity after 70 years please explain how the Greeks and than the Romans could conqueror Jerusalem and the whole nation of Israel could be sent into exile and ceased to exist.

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There are two reasons for exiles. One is because of the people's negligence on the observance of the laws, especially with respect to the Land as for example the Sabbatical year. The other reason is to make the People take the knowledge of God to the nations. (Ezek. 20:41) And for the destroying of all nations that have come against Jerusalem, is there any left? Where are the Assyrians? Where are the Babylonians? Where are the Romans? Where are those Greeks that attacked Jerusalem? You are wrong when you say that the whole nation of Israel has ceased to exist. We are alive and kicking. Wake up my friend. If you can't fly for a trip to Israel, sit for sometime before the TV and you will soon get familiar with Israel.

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Etritonakin said:

I'd like to ask you about what various Jews believe various old testament prophecies to mean, and how Jews -especially in Israel -would react to my beliefs concerning them, but that will require a lengthy post which I will work on later.

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Just mention the prophecy and we will work on it. You will tell me what you think and
I will either agree or disagree with you, and why.

Do you keep the Passover/Days of Unleavened Bread/Pentecost/Feast of Tabernacles, etc.?

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Yes for the Passover. No for Pentecost. This is Christian and not Jewish. We keep Shavuot. Yes for the Feast of Tabernacles or Succot. Etc.

and... what do you believe the following to mean (I believe it to be 100 percent literal -and not far off -I may have asked you something about it before -can't recall -if so, disregard and I will look it up)?

Zec 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
Zec 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

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This is all with reference to the persecutions after the return of the Jews from exile in Babylon, and the wars during he Hasmonian dinasty.

Do you believe any old testament prophecies relate to the formation of the modern state of Israel and/or what will happen there from now until Messiah comes?

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It could be after you mention specifically what you are thinking about. And with regards to the Messiah, I believe that he is the People of Israel. It is a consensus even among Christians that the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 is the Messiah. I believe it so too. The difference is that I see the Prophet speaking of Israel, the Jewish People and you see the individual in Jesus. Well, a good way to verify the truth is to see Isaiah identifying that Servant with Israel by name, so that we should not assume that he is referring to an individual. (Isa. 41:8,9; 44:1,2,21; 45:4) Jesus was part of the Messiah for 33 years of his life. The Messiah cannot die but, according to Jeremiah 31:45-47, he is to remain as a People before the Lord forever.

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Ben Masada said:

Shalom Maimonides, God is indeed incorporeal, except in a vision or dreams, when He is reported to have been seen corporeally and speaking as if He were a human being. Yes, light, in Theological terms, which is the case here, is metaphorical. It sometimes means knowledge, understanding, etc. But all symbolically; nothing taken literally, which would become an issue in the realm of Physics.

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Zardoz said:

'OT Christian' ... interesting, I knew some Hebrew Christians (Gentile Messianics) who called themselves that as well. Don't know if it means the same to you as to them, but if it does remember you're welcome to hang out in the Messianic Judaism DIR. It's for Hebrew Christians as well as Messianic Jews, that's why it's all by itself in the Abrahamic DIR instead of in the Judaism DIR.

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Ben Masada said:

allright said:

ultitudes would have cleared out or thrown some stone at him. The accusation of dogs and swine is too grave an accusation toward Jews. He was referring to the Gentiles whom he had an aversion to.
The whole new testament is Jesus offending the Jew leaders and their trying to stone him, throw him off a cliff and finally crucifying him





There are two reasons for exiles. One is because of the people's negligence on the observance of the laws, especially with respect to the Land as for example the Sabbatical year. The other reason is to make the People take the knowledge of God to the nations. (Ezek. 20:41) And for the destroying of all nations that have come against Jerusalem, is there any left? Where are the Assyrians? Where are the Babylonians? Where are the Romans? Where are those Greeks that attacked Jerusalem? You are wrong when you say that the whole nation of Israel has ceased to exist. We are alive and kicking. Wake up my friend. If you can't fly for a trip to Israel, sit for sometime before the TV and you will soon get familiar with Israel.

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Youve got to be kidding
So your saying that God sent a bunch of rebels who were sinning against him to teach the rest of the world how to follow and obey him.
"Do as I say, not as I do."

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Ben Masada said:

Etritonakin said:

Yes for the Passover. No for Pentecost. This is Christian and not Jewish. We keep Shavuot. Yes for the Feast of Tabernacles or Succot. Etc.

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By Pentecost I meant the "feast of weeks" of the old testament. I'm not aware if some Christians keep what they call Pentecost on some other day, but the "Pentecost" of Acts 2:1 in the new testament is the very same as the feast of weeks in the old testament.
Many "Christians" don't realize (or refuse to acknowledge) that Christ, the apostles -and even gentiles in the new testament church many years after Christ's death -kept the Sabbath -not Sunday -and Passover, days of unleavened bread, Pentecost, feast of trumpets, day of atonement, feast of tabernacles and last great day of the old testament.

G4005
πεντηκοστή
pentēkostē
pen-tay-kos-tay'
Feminine of G4004; fiftieth (G2250 being implied) from Passover, that is, the festival of "pentecost": - Pentecost.

Lev 23:15 And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete:
Lev 23:16 Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto the LORD.

It is also referred to by some as the feast of firstfruits or feast of ingathering...

Exo 34:22 And thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, of the firstfruits of wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year's end.

Apparently Shavuot is associated the feast of weeks, but is one of the two days the fiftieth from Passover?

also Sha·bu·oth (shə-vū'ōt', -əs, shä'vū-ôt')

n. Judaism
A feast held on the sixth and seventh days of Sivan in commemoration of the revelation of the Law on Mount Sinai and the celebration of the wheat festival in ancient times. Also called Pentecost.

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Ben Masada said:

Etritonakin said:

Just mention the prophecy and we will work on it. You will tell me what you think and
I will either agree or disagree with you, and why.

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First, general questions concerning prophecy and Israel as a whole.

Do you believe that God literally allowed Israel as a nation to go into captivity,etc., in the past due to disobedience -or do you believe prophecies concerning such are not literal?

As you believe that the prophecies I mentioned before do not apply to modern times, do you believe that God still makes decisions concerning modern Israel based on its adherance to his laws?

Do you believe the formation of the modern state of Israel was prophesied in the old testament? (Such as the following -or anywhere else in the old testament?)

Zec 12:6 In that day will I make the governors of Judah like an hearth of fire among the wood, and like a torch of fire in a sheaf; and they shall devour all the people round about, on the right hand and on the left: and Jerusalem shall be inhabited again in her own place, even in Jerusalem.

The above seems to be exactly what has happened with the modern state of Israel thus far.

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Maimonides said:

Hmmm Did Rambam have this same view? For some reason I believe I read your response in "The guide for the perplexed."

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