Christian: Sola Scriptura

AV1611 said:

All prophecies from God ended in 96 AD with the completion of Scripture.

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But Scripture wasn't completed by 96 AD. They were still wrangling about what was or was not Scripture almost 300 years later (even longer than that if you want to include the reformation era reduction of the canon).

James

IacobPersul said:

But Scripture wasn't completed by 96 AD. They were still wrangling about what was or was not Scripture almost 300 years later (even longer than that if you want to include the reformation era reduction of the canon).

James

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And they still wrangle today. I can wrangle over the phone book, but that doesn't mean it's not completed.

AV1611 said:

And they still wrangle today. I can wrangle over the phone book, but that doesn't mean it's not completed.

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Your comment makes sense only with reference to the later reduction by the reformers because they were altering an already complete canon of Scripture. In 96 AD, however, there was no canon of Scripture at all and had you travelled around the Empire from Church to Church you'd probably have found most had nothing more than the Septuagint, perhaps the odd letter and a lot of oral teachings. Most of them probably wouldn't have even had a single Gospel. That hardly sounds like completed Scripture to me.

James

IacobPersul said:

Your comment makes sense only with reference to the later reduction by the reformers because they were altering an already complete canon of Scripture. In 96 AD, however, there was no canon of Scripture at all and had you travelled around the Empire from Church to Church you'd probably have found most had nothing more than the Septuagint, perhaps the odd letter and a lot of oral teachings. Most of them probably wouldn't have even had a single Gospel. That hardly sounds like completed Scripture to me.

James

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I said just what I said. 96 AD. No "reformers" yet, no one around to "reduce" the Bible. No "bible scholars" yet to tell us what should or should not be there. Had I traveled around the empire from Church to Church in 96 AD,that's probably correct. Give them time to propagate the Gospel, for pity's sake! (They didn't have the Internet then.)

AV1611 said:

Give them time to propagate the Gospel, for pity's sake! (They didn't have the Internet then.)

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Nor a canon of Scripture.

NetDoc said:

So UD,

what or who is infallible? Only God is perfect. God has ALWAYS worked though the imperfect until Jesus appeared on the scene. Even Paul instructs us to only follow him as he follows Christ.

We all respond differently to the very same message.

I Corinthians 8:1Now about food sacrificed to idols: We know that we all possess knowledge. Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. 2The man who thinks he knows something does not yet know as he ought to know. 3But the man who loves God is known by God. NIV

So Victor,

you and I have a different outlook on the raison d'etre for the Catholic church. But that is not relevant.

Acts 15 tells us "loud and clear" ONE WAY to resolve doctrinal issues: debate. But it's not the ONLY way to do it and it doesn't imply that it's the ONLY way to do it. You can also "search the scriptures", merely disagree (as Paul did with Barnabas), confront each other (as Paul did to Peter) as well as others. Why restrict where the scriptures don't restrict? As in the words of Peter:

Acts 15:10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? NIV

I meant what I said. What would make you infer otherwise?[/color]

[/i][/b] Sadly this speaks volumes. As it said in II Corinthians; Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. What you "know" is not as important as "how you love".

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ND this is tireseome. As usual you simply do not deal with anything that argues against your faith.

AV1611 said:

I said just what I said. 96 AD. No "reformers" yet, no one around to "reduce" the Bible. No "bible scholars" yet to tell us what should or should not be there. Had I traveled around the empire from Church to Church in 96 AD,that's probably correct. Give them time to propagate the Gospel, for pity's sake! (They didn't have the Internet then.)

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Which is the point. If somethign was true then it is true now. If the Bible was all we need, and WHAT we need, now, it was then. If the KJV is the only correct version (I am still wondering what on Earth non-English speaking people do without a KJV?) now, it was the only one then. Yet they had no KJV then, they didn't have "Bible"s as we know them today at all. Very few, as James mentioned, even had Gospels. And guess what, they DIDN'T have the internet. So how did they spread the Gospel? Orally. They didn't hand out books, they preached.

AV1611 said:

All prophecies from God ended in 96 AD with the completion of Scripture.

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1. Then why did Jesus himself organize His Church on a foundation of prophets? Why did He bother to call prophets if they were no longer going to be needed?

2. Where in the Bible does it say God was through talking to His children? If the Bible is all we need, it certainly would stand to reason that God would at least warn us in advance.

Uncertaindrummer said:

Which is the point. If somethign was true then it is true now. If the Bible was all we need, and WHAT we need, now, it was then. If the KJV is the only correct version (I am still wondering what on Earth non-English speaking people do without a KJV?) now, it was the only one then. Yet they had no KJV then, they didn't have "Bible"s as we know them today at all. Very few, as James mentioned, even had Gospels. And guess what, they DIDN'T have the internet. So how did they spread the Gospel? Orally. They didn't hand out books, they preached.

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Drummer, I almost ignored this post, but then I decided not to because I think you're serious. So here's your answer:

They had the AV96 version.

I'm being honest here when I say sometimes I feel like I'm trying to nail Jello to the wall.

I said the KJV was the only correct version for today. Anything else, and believe, YOU'LL never recognize it, and neither will anyone else, including me. Why? I don't believe they exist today. Once the AV96 became the AV500 [or whatever], the AV96 went bye-bye --- then the AV500 became AV[whatever] and so on, until the AV1611.

I challenge ANYONE ... and I mean ANYONE ... to assemble 52 men today, take what sources they think the King James Bible came from, isolate themselves, and come up with another King James Bible, verbatim.

Katzpur said:

1. Then why did Jesus himself organize His Church on a foundation of prophets? Why did He bother to call prophets if they were no longer going to be needed?

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He didn't. He organized it on "the Rock" --- a.k.a. Himself.

AND I SAY UNTO THEE, THOU ART PETER, AND UPON THIS ROCK [referring to vs. 16] I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH; AND THE GATES OF HELL SHALL NOT PREVAIL AGAINST IT. - (Matthew 16:18)

2. Where in the Bible does it say God was through talking to His children? If the Bible is all we need, it certainly would stand to reason that God would at least warn us in advance.

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He did.

CHARITY NEVER FAILETH: BUT WHETHER THERE BE PROPHECIES, THEY SHALL FAIL; WHETHER THERE BE TONGUES, THEY SHALL CEASE; WHETHER THERE BE KNOWLEDGE, IT SHALL VANISH AWAY. FOR WE KNOW IN PART, AND WE PROPHECY IN PART. BUT WHEN THAT WHICH IS PERFECT SHALL COME [completed Scripture], THEN THAT WHICH IS IN PART SHALL BE DONE AWAY. - (1 Corinthians 13:8-10)

UD said:

ND this is tireseome. As usual you simply do not deal with anything that argues against your faith.

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What's to deal? The scriptures and the Holy Spirit are all I need to understand God. What role do YOU think the Holy Spirit has in our understanding?

However, I have asked you some questions. I would like to hear the answers, if you are not too tired that is.

netdoc said:

I meant what I said. What would make you infer otherwise?

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Because YOU ARE the final authority. You submit to nothing but your own understanding of Scripture. Once again, good luck.

netdoc said:

Sadly this speaks volumes. As it said in II Corinthians; Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up. What you "know" is not as important as "how you love".

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Very true. Thank you for keeping me straight..

~Victor

Victor said:

Because YOU ARE the final authority. You submit to nothing but your own understanding of Scripture.

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No, Victor, I'm not letting you get away with that cheap shot.

I am not the final authority, I have the final authority. I'm not like some, that, just because they know how to drive, think they're the final authority on driving, and everyone should get out of their way.

I'm not a Jim Jones or Herff Applewhite.

You people who arc and spark about Scripture, I love it when you toe the line with lesser manuals --- like the rules of driving and such. Where are your mouths when it comes to "debating" the laws of the land, or maritime laws, or laws of gravity?

Could you "debate" your way out of a critical situation if your parachute fails to open?

I would love to start a thread on who of us has been in jail, and why?

Like I said ... EVERYONE can tell me what the Bible shouldn't say ... but NOT ONE can tell me what it should say. And I'm supposed to take you seriously?

AV1611 said:

Like I said ... EVERYONE can tell me what the Bible shouldn't say ... but NOT ONE can tell me what it should say. And I'm supposed to take you seriously?

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If fuzzy feelings and your vast knowledge works for you then good luck. Interpretation and denominational anarchy. :areyoucra

~Victor

So Victor... what do you with verses like:

II Corinthians 3:1 Are we beginning to commend ourselves again? Or do we need, like some people, letters of recommendation to you or from you? 2 You yourselves are our letter, written on our hearts, known and read by everybody. 3 You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.
4 Such confidence as this is ours through Christ before God. 5 Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God. 6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. NIV

Do you just ignore them or throw them away? Do you want to make Christianity a legalistic form of worship, with robes and incense like the Pharisees? Merely an OUTWARD show rather than an inner understanding? Where is your FREEDOM?

I Corinthians 10:23 "Everything is permissible"—but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible"—but not everything is constructive. 24 Nobody should seek his own good, but the good of others.


25 Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience, 26 for, "The earth is the Lord's, and everything in it."

27 If some unbeliever invites you to a meal and you want to go, eat whatever is put before you without raising questions of conscience. 28 But if anyone says to you, "This has been offered in sacrifice," then do not eat it, both for the sake of the man who told you and for conscience' sake— 29 the other man's conscience, I mean, not yours. For why should my freedom be judged by another's conscience? 30 If I take part in the meal with thankfulness, why am I denounced because of something I thank God for? 31 So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. 32 Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God— 33 even as I try to please everybody in every way. For I am not seeking my own good but the good of many, so that they may be saved. NIV

Why would you deny me, my freedom Victor? What I do, I do for the glory of God. Are you jealous of our freedom? Is your arguing against "sola scriptura" motivated by a desire to see ALL of us under the thumb of YOUR denomination?

Colossians 2:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18 Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. 19 He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.
20 Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: 21 "Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"? 22 These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. 23 Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence. NIV

I will rely on the Spirit to guide me into the truth, but you can continue to rely on man for your salvation.

netdoc said:

So Victor... what do you with verses like:

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netdoc said:

II Corinthians 3:1 Are we beginning to commend ourselves again? Or do we need, like some people, letters of recommendation to you or from you? 2 You yourselves are our letter, written on our hearts, known and read by everybody. 3 You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

4 Such confidence as this is ours through Christ before God. 5 Not that we are competent in ourselves to claim anything for ourselves, but our competence comes from God. 6 He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. NIV



Do you just ignore them or throw them away? Do you want to make Christianity a legalistic form of worship, with robes and incense like the Pharisees? Merely an OUTWARD show rather than an inner understanding? Where is your FREEDOM?

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Andrew Galambos (astrophysicist) said:
"Freedom is the societal condition that exists when every individual has full (i.e. 100%) control over his own property."
What is your property?
1. Your mind is your property
2. Your body is your property
Get the picture?
If you want the FREEDOM to choose whatever the Bible says then you can have it and no one is taking away from you. I’m am not jealous one bit. I don’t want that FREEDOM. For the umpteenth time, good luck!

netdoc said:

I Corinthians 10:23 "Everything is permissible"—but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible"—but not everything is constructive. 24 Nobody should seek his own good, but the good of others.
25 Eat anything sold in the meat market without raising questions of conscience, 26 for, "The earth is the Lord's, and everything in it."
27 If some unbeliever invites you to a meal and you want to go, eat whatever is put before you without raising questions of conscience. 28 But if anyone says to you, "This has been offered in sacrifice," then do not eat it, both for the sake of the man who told you and for conscience' sake— 29 the other man's conscience, I mean, not yours. For why should my freedom be judged by another's conscience? 30 If I take part in the meal with thankfulness, why am I denounced because of something I thank God for? 31 So whether you eat or drink or whatever you do, do it all for the glory of God. 32 Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks or the church of God— 33 even as I try to please everybody in every way. For I am not seeking my own good but the good of many, so that they may be saved. NIV
Why would you deny me, my freedom Victor? What I do, I do for the glory of God. Are you jealous of our freedom? Is your arguing against "sola scriptura" motivated by a desire to see ALL of us under the thumb of YOUR denomination?

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Can you please point out where I am attempting to take away your freedom? I don’t follow Sola Scriptura because it’s not biblical. Submitting to something other then yourself is the only way to truly seek unity in doctrine.

netdoc said:

Colossians 2:16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. 17 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. 18 Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. 19 He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.

20 Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules: 21 "Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"? 22 These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. 23 Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence. NIV

I will rely on the Spirit to guide me into the truth, but you can continue to rely on man for your salvation.

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So do millions of others ND. The Church is only there for those who ignore (or for whatever reason) the Holy Spirit. I suppose this doesn’t happen to you, right?

Man is ALWAYS part of the equation ND. Not unless YOU are not a man.

Best of luck with your man-made tradition of Sola Scriptura
~Victor

Good luck with your man made church!

NetDoc said:

Good luck with your man made church!

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Ditto...

~Victor

NetDoc said:

Is your arguing against "sola scriptura" motivated by a desire to see ALL of us under the thumb of YOUR denomination?

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Holy Chicken Little.....

AV1611 said:

He didn't. He organized it on "the Rock" --- a.k.a. Himself.

AND I SAY UNTO THEE, THOU ART PETER, AND UPON THIS ROCK [referring to vs. 16] I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH; AND THE GATES OF HELL SHALL NOT PREVAIL AGAINST IT. - (Matthew 16:18)

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Well, if He didn't, Paul didn't know what he was talking about when he said to the Ephesians: "Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord..." (Ephesians 2:19-21)

Jesus Christ is the cornerstone of His Church, which was built on a foundation of prophets and apostles. Have you ever known any structure to be able to continue to stand once its foundation is removed? I haven't.

He did.

CHARITY NEVER FAILETH: BUT WHETHER THERE BE PROPHECIES, THEY SHALL FAIL; WHETHER THERE BE TONGUES, THEY SHALL CEASE; WHETHER THERE BE KNOWLEDGE, IT SHALL VANISH AWAY. FOR WE KNOW IN PART, AND WE PROPHECY IN PART. BUT WHEN THAT WHICH IS PERFECT SHALL COME [completed Scripture], THEN THAT WHICH IS IN PART SHALL BE DONE AWAY. - (1 Corinthians 13:8-10)

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I'm sorry, but I'm at a loss as to why you believe that "that which is perfect" is referring to "scripture." Obviously, that's your own interpretation, and you are entitled to it. Personally, I believe that the only thing that is perfect is God. When Jesus Christ returns to begin His millennial reign, then and only then "that which is in part shall be done away."

So I guess we're back to square one. In Matthew 23:34, Jesus said to the Pharisees:

"Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city."

Note: He is not speaking in the past tense. He is telling them that they will kill, crucify and scourge the prophets He sends. Are you saying that He did not continue to send prophets after having promised to?

Kathryn