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Christian: Sola Scriptura

Discussion in 'Same Faith Debates' started by Uncertaindrummer, Jul 6, 2005.

  1. Quiddity

    Quiddity UndertheInfluenceofGiants

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    So we know for certain because it was passed down?
     
  2. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    __Yes
     
  3. Quiddity

    Quiddity UndertheInfluenceofGiants

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    What a coincidence. I believe that too. :D

    ~Victor
     
  4. joeboonda

    joeboonda Well-Known Member

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    Just for the record, I won't even begin to try to argue it, I believe the Bible to be the divinely inspired word of God, the King James is the version I prefer, I look to no other source. There are answers out there to the question, I do not have the time to delve into it, just wanted to state what I believe for the record. PEACE!
     
  5. Uncertaindrummer

    Uncertaindrummer Active Member

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    Says who? How do you know God wrote it? You are aware that many scholars, in fact, the majority, believe that of Paul's letters, many were probably not actually written by Paul? And if that is true then would your Faith crumble due to the fact that you arne' even sure that an Apostle wrote those letters? And don't give me this crap about how God made sure the KJV was all perfect and everything. Because that is just what that is. Crap.

    I don't really give a crap. I know it was an Apostle. You don't.

    I can do whatever I please. Your arguments are so full of logical fallacies and just plain nonsense that I could call up ancient pagan rituals as sources for my arguments and it would be fine.
     
  6. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    I gotta admit, you've earned your name.
     
  7. James the Persian

    James the Persian Dreptcredincios Crestin

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    But the issue we were debating was the reformers expunging books from the Old Testament. These didn't creep in over the centuries as you put it, but were in the Church's OT from the very beginning, so the question remains. Did God make a mistake by allowing the Church to use this 'dross'? Did He suddenly have a change of heart and go 'hang on I never inspired those'? Did He merely miss that the Church had them (an odd oversight for an omnipotent God)? And why, given that He is eternal and not in any way bound by time, do you explain the fact that he waited until a millennium and a half later to inspire a few Protestants to remove them? And once again, the new translation did not expunge those books. The KJV as originally translated included them, so if the new translation was supposed to have cleared out the 'dross', as you call the deuterocannonicals, then it was singularly unsuccessful. In actual fact, the books were only expunged as the Church of England became more influenced by the Protestant movements coming in from the continent. I'm still amazed that you seem so committed to faith based on Scripture alone whilst having no clear and consistent argument as to what Scripture actually is.

    James
     
  8. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    I don't know how I can put it any plainer, James. God built the Bible line upon line, precept upon precept. He told the people not to add to it - they added to it. Now you ask if God made a mistake by allowing this dross to enter His Word. I've got the FINAL PRODUCT in English --- the King James Bible --- and that's good enough for me.

    But publishing companies are putting the dross back in, and we AVphiles are seeing it just for what it is --- dross.

    As I understand it, even the King James Bible had typos and such in it when it first came out; but all it needed was some fine tuning to correct the typos and remove the Apocrypha (if indeed it was in there).
     
  9. James the Persian

    James the Persian Dreptcredincios Crestin

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    When did God say not to add to Scripture, and what was added? It can't have been back in the Old Testament times or we'd have no New Testament. I'm aware of the Scripture from Revelations, but that only applies to Revelations and, in any case, even if it didn't, the deuterocannonical books were already part of Scripture when it was written (even though not all of the NT was and there was as yet no agreed canon, and wouldn't be for several hundred years). You've still managed to explain just about nothing.

    Oh, and the KJV most certainly did originally include the deuterocannonicals, there;'s no if about it, and comparing that to a typographical error is, frankly, ridiculous. You still haven't managed to come up with any evidence to suggest why the deuterocannonicals were expunged, who did it or just why they thought they had the right to do so and you haven't even come close to showing that they were following God's will.

    James
     
  10. Uncertaindrummer

    Uncertaindrummer Active Member

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    So remind me again why the KJV is correct and all the others are wrong. Oh, thats right, because you SAY it is.

    You have no clue why you think the Bible is inspired, you are trusting heretical Goths and fallbible interpretaors to give you a book which even THEN you aren't sure why you believe it is inspired in the first place. Not only that but you can't even answer what peopel did BEFORE the KJV, can't understand that Matthew (and all of the Gospels) are anonymous, and have no clue why Paul's letters to Timothy (just as an example) are inspired, but the Gospel of Peter is not.

    And after all that you STILL can't even produce a single verse that says the Bible is sufficient for the Christian believer.
     
  11. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    I'd love to see you stand in front of a Goth and say that to his face.

    Now they may let you get away with that.

    Keep talking ... the viewers should me enough by now to know how true that is.

    2 Timothy 3:15 = AND FROM A CHILD THOU HAST KNOW THE HOLY SCRIPTURES, WHICH ARE ABLE TO MAKE THEE WISE UNTO SALVATION THROUGH FAITH WHICH IS IN CHRIST JESUS.

    Amazing what I can't do, isn't it? --- OH, WAIT! YOU'RE RIGHT!

    Proverbs 1:1-4 = THE PROVERBS OF SOLOMON THE SON OF DAVID, KING OF ISRAEL; TO KNOW WISDOM AND INSTRUCTION; TO PERCEIVE THE WORDS OF UNDERSTANDING; TO RECEIVE THE INSTRUCTION OF WISDOM, JUSTICE, AND JUDGMENT, AND EQUITY. TO GIVE SUBTILITY TO THE SIMPLE, TO THE YOUNG MAN KNOWLEDGE AND DISCRETION.

    I guess I can't produce "a single verse" ... sorry.
     
  12. James the Persian

    James the Persian Dreptcredincios Crestin

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    Well you haven't done so far. Neither of your quotes say that the Bible is totally sufficent as a basis of your faith, one is from the Old Testament (and doesn't seem to relevant either) and so has no bearing on the New and the other is clearly referring to the OT, and the Septuagint at that, given that the NT hadn't even begun to be written when Timothy was a child. Can't you find anything more relevant to your argument?

    James
     
  13. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Well, James, not to your satisfaction, no.
     
  14. Uncertaindrummer

    Uncertaindrummer Active Member

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    What?

    Of course they would. They didn't even claim what you claim for them.

    Once again, What?

    So? You think this proves the sufficiency of the Bible as the sole rule of Faith?

    Once again, no meat. I started a thread to see if anyone could defend Sola Scriptura. Apparently not.
     
  15. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Perhaps there's nothing to defend it against?
     
  16. Uncertaindrummer

    Uncertaindrummer Active Member

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    Sure there is. The Bible. Why does the Bible say that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of interpretation? Why does it say that we are to hold on to the Traditions we have been taught, either by oral word of the Apostles or by letter? Why does Paul praise those who stand fast to the Traditions he handed onto them?

    How can a book prove itself? How do you even know whats IN that book? How do you know Apostles wrote these things when they are anonymous? How come the Bible NEVER says it is sufficient as a rule of Faith on its own? Why does the Bible say that the CHURCH is the "pillar and foundation of truth", and that if your brother sins agaisnt you, the final authority is with the Church? Why did Jesus botehr with foundign a Church on a Rock if He was really just gonna fifteen hundred years later want people to hand out Bibles?

    You haven't answered a single problem with Sola Scriptura.
     
  17. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Please pare this post down to one question (you choose), and I'll do my best to answer it. If I can satisfy you with THAT one, then we'll go from there.

    And the Bible does NOT say no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of interpretation. It says no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of private interpretation - 2 Peter 1:20.

    This means that what Peter says, and what John says, and what Jesus said, and what churces say today, and what anyone says had better line up like three dots in a row.
     
  18. glasgowchick

    glasgowchick Gives Glory to God !!!

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    Hi, Here is why I believe we don't need anything more that the Bible to teach us about Christ Jesus and the way of salvation..This is my belief and I speak for myself on this.

    Its Origin

    Inspired 2 Timothy 3: 16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction and for training in righteouness...

    Holy Spirit John 16:13 " But when He, the Spirit of Truth comes, He will guide you into all truth for He will not Speak on His own initiative but whatever he hears he will speak and he will disclose to you what is to come".

    Holy Men 2Peter 1:21 For no prophecy was ever made by an act of Human will but Men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God..

    With these above verses alone, I don't see anything else needed to trust that the Bible we have is the word of God..If its not then Peter must have lied.

    Its Purpose

    It keeps us from sin Ps 119:11 " Your word I have treasured in my heart that I may not sin against you.."

    It Lights our way PS 119:105 " Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path"

    It purifies us..1Peter 1:22 Since you have in obedience to the truth purified your souls for a sincere love of the brethren, feverently love one another from the heart..

    Free us John 8:32 And you will know the truth and the truth will make you free.

    It saves us..James 1:21 Therefore putting aside all filthiness and all that remains of wickedness, in Humainity recieve the word implanted Which is able to SAVE YOUR SOULS..

    Its Compleatness

    ALL TRUTH..John 16:13 [ Scripture written out in previously above ]

    ALL THINGS 2 peter 1:3 Seeing that HIS DIVINE power has granted us to us EVERYTHING PERTAINING TO LIFE AND GODLINESS through the TRUE KNOWLEGE of Him who called us by his own glory and excellence.

    The Whole counsil Acts 20:27 2 For I did not shrink from declaring to you the WHOLE PURPOSE OF GOD...

    Its indestructability

    Lasts forever Mathew 24:35 Heaven and earth will pass away but my words will not pass away..

    1 Peter 1:25 But the words of the Lord endure forever And this is the Word that was preached to you...

    The Bible warns

    Do not add or subtract from Deut 4:2 you shall not add to the word which I am commanding you , NOR take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God...

    Proverbs 30:6 Do Not add to His words or he will reprove you and you will be proved a liar..

    Rev 22: 18-19 I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book if anyone adds to them God will add to him the plagues which are written in this book.

    Do not substitute Human Ideas Mark 7:7-9 But in vain do they worship me Teaching as Doctrines of men Neglecting the Commandment of God you hold to the tradition of men..

    Preach and teach only Gods word...2Timothy 4:2 Preach the word, be ready in season and out of season, reprove, rebuke, exhort with great patience and instruction..[See also 1Peter 4:11]

    Believe no other Gospel Galations 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you any other Gospel contrary to what we have preached to you he is to be accursed..

    His word will judge us John 12: 48 " He who rejects me and DOES NOT MY SAYINGS, has one who judges him the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day..

    The Bible answers Three questions

    The origin of Life ...where did I come from
    The purpose of Life..why am I hear..
    After death then what...where am I going...

    The Bible contains

    The Mind of God
    The state of man
    the way of salvation
    The happiness of believers
    The Doom of sinners..

    Well I can't answer anymore than I have already done as to why I would need anything more..Its all there...
     
  19. glasgowchick

    glasgowchick Gives Glory to God !!!

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    Correction to make

    John 12:48 He who rejects me and does NOT RECIEVE MY SAYINGS..ECT ECT :)
     
  20. Uncertaindrummer

    Uncertaindrummer Active Member

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    Okay. Is the KJV the only acceptbale version of the Bible?

    Sorry. I did not intend to misquote, I actually MEANT it is not a matter of private interpretation. Which means that you are doign exactly what the Bible forbids. Privately interpreting it.
     
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