Prayer in Public Schools

Dezzie · Nov 8, 2010

If it's Christian only prayer, I do not agree with it. If they gave the children a choice to pray any way they want, I'm fine with it... to an extent. It drives me nuts when Christian prayer is the main one used EVERYWHERE... At Military ceremonies for example. They always pray before and after a ceremony. The prayer is ALWAYS Christian based. ALWAYS. It aggravates me because it seems like people aren't understanding to other belief systems. I still have repect for their Christian belief (I put my head down and cross my arms when the prayer is being conducted) but what do I get in return? Another Christian prayer. No offense of course... but it is hurtful.

Revoltingest · Nov 8, 2010

Dezzie said:
If it's Christian only prayer, I do not agree with it.

Setting aside all the legal issues of teacher led prayer in public schools....what prayer would we atheists recite?
Bear in mind that you'd have to satisfy the strong, weak & in-between atheists.

Dirty Penguin · Nov 8, 2010

I'ken Imagine said:
As a new member to this forum I'm kind of testing the waters with this one to see whether it can be discussed in a candid and CIVIL manner. I offer my word that I will never use an ad hominem argument against any opponent under any circumstance. I'm completely OK with the U.S. Supreme Court rulings on prayer in our public schools. If you're NOT OK with the law, then I'm interested in discussing it with you. I'm hoping for discussion and NOT drive-by swipes. Fair enough? Possible? I hope so.

I currently work in the IT Dept. for a local school system and I feel as though prayer should not be allowed. School is for learning. Staff is limited, classrooms are over crowded, funding is very limited so we need to used the resources we have to prepare the kids for the world.

Dezzie · Nov 8, 2010

Revoltingest said:
Setting aside all the legal issues of teacher led prayer in public schools....what prayer would we atheists recite?
Bear in mind that you'd have to satisfy the strong, weak & in-between atheists.

yeah... that's kind of why I said I'd agree with various different prayers being used to an extent... they would have to do it in their own litte classroom. lol and of course... the teachers would have to be open-minded and jerk-free with other beliefs.

Revoltingest · Nov 8, 2010

Dezzie said:
yeah... that's kind of why I said I'd agree with various different prayers being used to an extent... they would have to do it in their own litte classroom. lol and of course... the teachers would have to be open-minded and jerk-free with other beliefs.

I propose this one for us:
Oh, God or gods who definitely or possibly aren't in Heaven or any other supernatural realm, just ignore
me & let me take blame or credit for whatever success or failure I have facing life's trials & tribulations.
But if you do exist, may pestilence & perfidy afflict my enemies, may I see them driven before me, &
hear the lamentation of their women!

Dezzie · Nov 8, 2010

Revoltingest said:
I propose this one for us:
Oh, God or gods who definitely or possibly aren't in Heaven or any other supernatural realm, just ignore
me & let me take blame or credit for whatever success or failure I have facing life's trials & tribulations.
But if you do exist, may pestilence & perfidy afflict my enemies, may I see them driven before me, &
hear the lamentation of their women!

:sad4: That was beautiful...

Danmac · Nov 8, 2010

Revoltingest said:
We once didn't let them negroes in our schools either...could integration be the problem?

I suppose you would have to look at the color of the skin of the ones breaking the rules. I think some of dem dare whities are guilty too.

Correlation isn't necessarily causation. The lack of God seems unimportant. I'd blame cultural changes & restrictions on disciplinary methods.

I would say the removal of commandments gave way to a more liberal way of doing things. Liberty without rules is anarchy. That is the way liberals prefer it. So anarchy it is. Just remember to send your kids to school with a glock.

Father Heathen · Nov 8, 2010

Danmac said:
I suppose you would have to look at the color of the skin of the ones breaking the rules. I think some of dem dare whities are guilty too.

I would say the removal of commandments gave way to a more liberal way of doing things. Liberty without rules is anarchy. That is the way liberals prefer it. So anarchy it is. Just remember to send your kids to school with a glock.

Everything goes down hill once kids start coveting oxen.

Danmac · Nov 8, 2010

I'ken Imagine said:
That is important. We all observe the breakdown in social behaviors by (many) students in the public schools. But if we look closely we also see fine moral examples of teachers who live according to their religious beliefs--alongside the poor examples of some other teachers. I don't perceive that the problem is that God is no longer in the schools. (Personally I doubt that God ever was in the schools, praying didn't make it so when one compares behavior with lip service.) I suspect that the behavior of students in school mirrors the behavior of those same students in their homes and to some degree is based on what they learn at home. I suspect that it also mirrors the behavior of our society.

I know that one retort to what I've just written may be that perhaps God is no longer in our society either. But the behaviors we lament today did not appear suddenly after 1963.

I agree that the reason for the moral breakdown is the fault of parents, but God honors those institutions that honor him, and those who don't are naturally cursed.

Danmac · Nov 8, 2010

Father Heathen said:
Everything goes down hill once kids start coveting oxen.

Much like the man that thinks he has captured the wind.

I'ken Imagine · Nov 8, 2010

Danmac said:
I agree that the reason for the moral breakdown is the fault of parents, but God honors those institutions that honor him, and those who don't are naturally cursed.

How do you mean?

no-body · Nov 8, 2010

Danmac said:
I would say the removal of commandments gave way to a more liberal way of doing things. Liberty without rules is anarchy. That is the way liberals prefer it. So anarchy it is. Just remember to send your kids to school with a glock.

and "liberty" with too many rules is fascism.

Interesting how your solution favors your religion and is tantamount to brainwashing.

AxisMundi · Nov 8, 2010

Danmac said:
I agree that the reason for the moral breakdown is the fault of parents, but God honors those institutions that honor him, and those who don't are naturally cursed.

Got some statistics, or other science, on that?

No?

Didn't think so.

AxisMundi · Nov 8, 2010

Here is the USDOE guidelines on the matter, and I see ntohing inherently wrong with them...

Guidance on Constitutionally Protected Prayer in Public Elementary and Secondary Schools

Some snippets...

Students may pray when not engaged in school activities or instruction, subject to the same rules designed to prevent material disruption of the educational program that are applied to other privately initiated expressive activities...

Students may organize prayer groups, religious clubs, and "see you at the pole" gatherings before school to the same extent that students are permitted to organize other non-curricular student activities groups.....

When acting in their official capacities as representatives of the state, teachers, school administrators, and other school employees are prohibited by the Establishment Clause from encouraging or discouraging prayer, and from actively participating in such activity with students....

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, public schools are for learning, church, and home, is for religion.

Zadok · Nov 8, 2010

I believe that laws prohibiting prayer in public schools are against the constitution that grants freedom of speech. Prayer is speech that should be as protected as any other form of free speech.

Zadok

Zadok · Nov 8, 2010

AxisMundi said:
Here is the USDOE guidelines on the matter, and I see ntohing inherently wrong with them...

Guidance on Constitutionally Protected Prayer in Public Elementary and Secondary Schools

Some snippets...

Students may pray when not engaged in school activities or instruction, subject to the same rules designed to prevent material disruption of the educational program that are applied to other privately initiated expressive activities...

Students may organize prayer groups, religious clubs, and "see you at the pole" gatherings before school to the same extent that students are permitted to organize other non-curricular student activities groups.....

When acting in their official capacities as representatives of the state, teachers, school administrators, and other school employees are prohibited by the Establishment Clause from encouraging or discouraging prayer, and from actively participating in such activity with students....

I've said it before, and I'll say it again, public schools are for learning, church, and home, is for religion.

Just wondering - how can someone study history without exposer to religion?

Also - why is touting a political preference of representatives of the state, teachers, school administrators, and other school employees protected free speach any more than touting a religious preference?

Zadok

Zadok · Nov 8, 2010

no-body said:
and "liberty" with too many rules is fascism.
....

You have a strange concept of liberty. Laws and rules that do not support Liberty are what brings about things like fascism.

Zadok

Autodidact · Nov 8, 2010

I'ken Imagine said:
I'm sorry if I was vague. I was thinking of Engel vs. Vitale, (1962) as the basis. I know there have been many subsequent. I didn't intend to dissect a given ruling per se, but to discuss more generally. At least that's where my head was when I posted.

I think SCOTUS has done a good job of balancing the interests and protecting the rights of religionists and non in this area.

uu_sage · Nov 8, 2010

As a strong advocate of church-state separation, I agree with the current policies. Students and faculty are free to pray during non-instructional hours as private citizens. Schools have no business conducting prayer in the classrooms during instructional hours. Students and faculty comprise of a wide diversity of religious traditions, and of no faith tradition at all. Even within those faith traditions there are many sects and interpretations. For a state official like a teacher to lead prayer among students is not only coercive but it is illegal. Prayer is the domain of churches, synagogues, mosques and other bodies of worship.

Autodidact · Nov 8, 2010

stlekee said:
So then it would be Ok to also say that atheism should be kept personal, as any derogatory remarks towards one's prayer or religion would be offensive and infinge on that one's rights of freedom of religion.

Well, I think a teacher cannot stand in front a classroom and lecture that God does not exist; that would be unconstitutional, in my view.

Prayer in Public Schools

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