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Did Jesus really suffer?

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
If You think I did not realize that point, from www.cin.org/archives/cinporch/...From: "Wenonah Kateri" <wenonah_at_unix.asb.com>
Subject: "Eloi, Eloi, Lama Sabachthani"
Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 14:34:35 -0400



"Eloi, Eloi, Lama Sabachthani" *
by Keith Clayton, Jr.
(1968 - 1998)


* A cry uttered by Jesus Christ while dying on the cross, preserved in the
original Aramaic:
"My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?"



Father,
Now the sun is risen,
I thank Thee for Thy silent strength
Given me in my hour of despair--
When the darkness
Seemed to smother,
And the tears
I selfishly shed
For my own pain
And trivial troubles
Shut out the light,
And I rendered myself
Alone.


Father,
Now Thy Son is risen,
I thank Thee for allowing One
So much greater than I
Thine Only Begotten,
Flesh of Thy flesh,
To complete a task so
Wonderful and
Terrible
By leaving Him
Necessarily
Alone.


Father,
In the garden green of Olivet,
In the still and solitude
The Creator of everything
Offered up all He had,
And submitted Himself
To all the vengeance of Hell;
And in His hour of need,
The Friend of the friendless
Was forsaken,
Forgotten,
For what?
Although the spirit was willing
The flesh indeed was weak;
And they slumbered,
Leaving Him,
The Balm of mortal pain,
To suffer,
Alone.


In the beauty of that desert place,
The Savior of mankind
Faced all the ugliness
His charges could offer:
The pain, the hate,
The sin, the sorrow,
The waste, the wickedness,
The pride, the poverty,
The deceit, the ignorance,
The doubt, the fear,
The betrayal
--And even the
Loneliness--
Alone.


As His immortal, righteous blood
Was spilled, like sweat
From every pore
And fell to the thirsty earth below,
I cannot hide
My honor and my awe
At His great love for me;
Neither can I hide
My shame,
Self-reproach
And regret. For
How many of those precious drops
Am I responsible for?
--As He suffered
The bitter cup,
Alone.


The longest night
the world will ever know,
The solstice of eternity,
Fell on Emmanuel
And by the light of torches
The Light of the world,
The very God of Love,
Was betrayed by a kiss,
Enslaved by strangers,
Rejected by His own,
Denied by those who
Knew Him best,
And led away
In chains
Alone.


How it must have hurt Thee
To witness the sufferings
Of Thy Beloved
Inflicted by Thine other children--
Those whom He had come to save;
To steadfastly persevere,
And answer not a word,
Amidst the jeers
The blows,
The spit
And scorn;
To see His perfect body torn,
His perfect soul rent in anguish,
Staggering and fainting beneath
The evil and imperfection
Of all mortality
Collectively
Alone.


And Thou,
Beyond the grasp of human pain
Did surely mourn at the
Mocking of His misery
By so many witnesses and
Beneficiaries of His
Miracles and ministry--
Those who knew better;
Who unworthily
And ungratefully
Bore Thy birthright;
Those with whom Thou had
Cut they covenant
Now cut the flesh of Thy Son
Deliberately.
And in the crowded mob
He wept
Alone.


Down the winding passages of
The City of Peace,
Stumbled the Prince of Peace.
Plaited thorns adorned His crown;
Stripped of all but His
Mantle of Duty;
How it must have burdened Thee
To see Thine Own,
Who in innocence
Did glorify Thy name,
Bearing a scapegoat's load--
The weight thereof
Not unfamiliar to Thee,
Which could so mercifully have been loosed
By Thy Omnipotence;
Yet in the name of mercy
Didst Thou allow
This charade of justice
To continue.
At a crossroads He was lifted up
Upon the cruel cross.
And in His torment,
When He needed Thee most,
Thou left Him
Unwillingly
Alone.


Father,
In the vastness of Thy creations,
was there any place large enough
To contain the immensity
Of Thy sorrow?
Was there any place small enough
And far enough away
To hide from the pleas and cries
Of Thy suffering Son?
Until the moment He pronounced
"It is finished."
Triumphing, at last
Alone.


In olden times, the Scriptures say
Thou wert a jealous God described;
I think I know now why--
Jealous lest man ever
Slight,
Forget,
Or with anything replace
The memory of the Sacrifice
Made by Thy Son
Alone.


O Father,
I thank Thee
For sacrificing Thy
Fatherhood for Thy
Godhood, by
Giving us Thy Son
To pay the ransom we could not.
And by so doing,
Thy righteous heart was broken also--
For what Father could bear to see
His helpless child suffer
And not rush to his aid?
--Instead, to leave him
Intentionally
Alone.


O Father,
I thank Thee
That through the tears that fell
From His eyes
And from Thine,
That my tears may be dried
And my eyes opened
To the Hope of my Salvation,
And the reassurance of my
Eternal worth
--In spite of myself--
That my meager life
Was worth dying for.
And He died
For me, and
Because of me,
That I might live for Him,
In all my days serving Him
As tool and ambassador
Of the love He had for us;
The love that gave purpose to His life
And life to His purpose.
Father, I acknowledge my
Hungering need
To bear and be borne by the
Unconditional Love of Christ,
Who unselfishly serves all those who but
Come unto Him.
As Counsellor,
Advocate
And Friend;
That neither I,
Nor any of us
Need ever be
Alone.


Father,
Let me let Him in!
Let His Light fill the recesses of my soul,
That darkness and evil
Find no place.
Let me always make room
For Him for Whom the inn was full.
Let your Spirit make me wise enough
To seek the King of Kings
As the Magi did;
And as
Wise men
Still and
Always do.
Let me ever joy
In that same glory
That was witnessed
To lowly shepherds
Long ago.
Praise be
To the Father
And the Son!
The glory be
To Him and Thee
Alone.


Please bless me,
Dear Father,
That I may live my days
In remembrance
Of Him Whose hands
First sculpted me in clay.
Whose hands now rest in Thine;
Those hands
Thou once suffered
To be pierced
For my sake.
Father, wouldst Thou bless me,
That as He bore my burdens,
I may lift all those around me
With whom I share this
Borrowed existence--
For Thy sacrifice,
And His,
Was not for me
Alone.


And in His name may I
Heal the poor in Spirit,
Feed those enhungered
Of body or soul;
Build up where others tear down;
Make Peace
Spread Love;
Share
His
Hope;
That as I represent Him
In my small corner of the world,
No one I meet
Will ever be
In need,
In doubt,
or
Alone.



Copyright 1998 Connie Clayton
For the author
Keith Clayton, Jr.
(1968 - 1998)
www.compucast.com/easter.html


Reprinted with permission Free to duplicate and distribute free of charge. :)
(please include site address)
http://tm.ask.co.uk/r?t=c&s=a&id=30...ww.cin.org/archives/cinporch/200004/0327.html
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
Jocose said:
And I'm just glad that I don't have to watch my god be humiliated.
With great respect Jocose - I don't think you can even begin to imagine..................:(
 

DreamQuickBook

Active Member
michel said:
With great respect Jocose - I don't think you can even begin to imagine..................:(

You mean Jesus' humiliation? No... I can imagine. I'm just not sure I can imagine anything worse. Of course, he is now thought of as a God. So, I don't know. Might have been worth it to him.
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
NetDoc said:
Sorry Michel... I was responding to Ryan2065 and not to you! :D
Arggghhhhhhh! I thought you thought I thought ...............oh blast - you know what I mean!:p
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
Jacosse said:
And I'm just glad that I don't have to watch my god be humiliated.
You are not alone.

Matthew 16:21 From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.

22 Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. "Never, Lord!" he said. "This shall never happen to you!"

23 Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men." NIV
 

Ryan2065

Well-Known Member
Something just poped into my head that I am not able to grasp. Ok, here it is... are you all ready?

God is a sick sick individual!

My proof. God, according to christians, is all powerful. This means there is nothing he cannot do. He sent his son down to earth to die for all christians sins and open the gates of heaven for us. Could he have not opened the gates of heaven without the sacrifice of his son? Why did the all powerful god have to sacrifice his son, and put him through all that pain? You all make it seem like he had no other choice...
 

DreamQuickBook

Active Member
NetDoc said:
"Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."[/color] NIV

Thank Satan that someone out there is looking out for the things of men. ;)
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
Ryan2065 said:
Something just poped into my head that I am not able to grasp. Ok, here it is... are you all ready?

God is a sick sick individual!

My proof. God, according to christians, is all powerful. This means there is nothing he cannot do. He sent his son down to earth to die for all christians sins and open the gates of heaven for us. Could he have not opened the gates of heaven without the sacrifice of his son? Why did the all powerful god have to sacrifice his son, and put him through all that pain? You all make it seem like he had no other choice...
Ryan, you have not one iota of the ability to accept the concept, the value of God's love - I don't think anyone could get through to you! For crying out loud, if it was that simple...............aggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhh I need a cold shower.:bonk:

And, while we are at it your " God is a sick sick individual!" is beyond the pale - I will let it go, but please do not sink to that level - you have crossed the boundary of debate and have broken a rule; please do NOT do it again - and that is with my 'MOD' hat on.:)
 

DreamQuickBook

Active Member
michel said:
Ryan, you have not one iota of the ability to accept the concept, the value of God's love - I don't think anyone could get through to you! For crying out loud, if it was that simple...............aggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhh I need a cold shower.:bonk:

Yes. See. Human sin is really bad. And God can't just forgive it without doing something really bad in return. Killing Himself, or his son, was the only thing that could pay the price.

Is that it?
 

Scott1

Well-Known Member
Ryan2065 said:
Something just poped into my head that I am not able to grasp.
:eek: I'm shocked!.... hehe...just kidding.:D

Could he have not opened the gates of heaven without the sacrifice of his son? Why did the all powerful god have to sacrifice his son, and put him through all that pain? You all make it seem like he had no other choice...
You are correct... God could have saved us in whichever way He chose... prior to Jesus, he sent prophets... signs... signals... stories... myths.... It just didn't seem to get the job done.

So God did something for us beyond reason... he became man.... and died to save all of humanity. Jesus freely offered himself for our salvation. Beforehand, during the Last Supper, he both symbolized this offering and made it really present: "This is my body which is given for you" (Lk 22:19).
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
Ryan said:
Something just poped into my head that I am not able to grasp.
They say that knowing is half of the battle!

Ryan said:
Could he have not opened the gates of heaven without the sacrifice of his son?
No. On top of God's "other" limitations, he can not create a stone so massive that he can't lift it. If it could have happened differently, it would have.

Matthew 26:36 Then Jesus went with his disciples to a place called Gethsemane, and he said to them, "Sit here while I go over there and pray." 37 He took Peter and the two sons of Zebedee along with him, and he began to be sorrowful and troubled. 38 Then he said to them, "My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death. Stay here and keep watch with me."


39 Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."

40 Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping. "Could you men not keep watch with me for one hour?" he asked Peter. 41 "Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the body is weak."

42 He went away a second time and prayed, "My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done."

43 When he came back, he again found them sleeping, because their eyes were heavy. 44 So he left them and went away once more and prayed the third time, saying the same thing. 45 Then he returned to the disciples and said to them, "Are you still sleeping and resting? Look, the hour is near, and the Son of Man is betrayed into the hands of sinners. 46 Rise, let us go! Here comes my betrayer!" NIV
 

Ryan2065

Well-Known Member
Michel said:
Ryan, you have not one iota of the ability to accept the concept, the value of God's love - I don't think anyone could get through to you! For crying out loud, if it was that simple...............aggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhh I need a cold shower
Yes, god loved me so much so that he sent his only son down to be humiliated, tortured, and eventually crucified just to show me that he existed. To me he could have done the same thing by opening the heavens, telling everyone on earth who he was, then opening the gates of heaven himself. This way he would not mess with free will or anything of the sort. But this more goes into argueing then question of how meaningful Jesus' death was.

I know that Jesus suffered physical pain... this is not being debated. The thing that is being debated is I was always told Jesus felt humans pain when he was crucified, but how can this be so when he KNEW he was the son of god and he KNEW he was going to heaven.

I don't think you are seeing my side of the coin here. How much mental anguish can one go through when they know that they are the son of god. You say that the sacrifice was that Jesus could have stopped it but he went through it, this shows that he had the power and the only things that happened were in his power to change. Mental anguish comes from loss of power and Jesus never experienced this.
 

Ryan2065

Well-Known Member
No. On top of God's "other" limitations, he can not create a stone so massive that he can't lift it. If it could have happened differently, it would have.
Heh, off topic... My theology teacher said the answer to that question is that God can both make a stone so big that he can't lift it and he can lift it. It apparently all had to do with the fact that god can go back in time... I dunno...
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
It's a logical conundrum... a red herring. It's only meant to make you miss the REAL point. :D
 

Scott1

Well-Known Member
Ryan2065 said:
This way he would not mess with free will or anything of the sort.
I guess we have a different definition of free will...
The thing that is being debated is I was always told Jesus felt humans pain when he was crucified, but how can this be so when he KNEW he was the son of god and he KNEW he was going to heaven.
First, how do you know what Jesus "KNEW"? .... and second, if I walk up to you and tell you that I'm going to punch you in the face... but you knew that your broken nose would eventually heal and the pain would go away, think you might be still a little bit afraid?
Mental anguish comes from loss of power and Jesus never experienced this.
No.. mental anguish comes from looking at a world full of people who run from your love... a world that kills .... a world that could be so wonderful, yet is far from so.... matter of fact, I'm feeling a little mental anguish thinking about it.
 

michel

Administrator Emeritus
Staff member
Jocose said:
Yes. See. Human sin is really bad. And God can't just forgive it without doing something really bad in return. Killing Himself, or his son, was the only thing that could pay the price.

Is that it?
Sorry, I have come to the conclusion that we come from different planets...........:eek:

Mental anguish comes from loss of power and Jesus never experienced this. - I was going to answer "Even greater is mental anguish when you know you could use power, but you choose the 'painful 'way out - but, Scott's answer is much better than mine.:)
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Ryan2065 said:
Yes, god loved me so much so that he sent his only son down to be humiliated, tortured, and eventually crucified just to show me that he existed. To me he could have done the same thing by opening the heavens, telling everyone on earth who he was, then opening the gates of heaven himself. This way he would not mess with free will or anything of the sort. But this more goes into argueing then question of how meaningful Jesus' death was.
I don't believe God forced His Son into this situation, though. And I definitely don't see Jesus' sacrifice as necessary to prove that God existed. It certainly didn't prove anything you you, nor did it to millions of other people. That's not what the Atonement was about at all.

The way I see it (and I admit, my perspective is not the same as that of most Christians), we human beings existed in a spirit state prior to our births and lived in the presence of God. We had a choice as to whether or not to experience mortality. We understood that this was an experience that would be necessary in order for us to progress. This was something we wanted, but we knew that it involved risks. We knew that perfect obedience to God's commandments would be required in order for us to return to God's presence, because no unclean thing can exist with Him. We knew that there would be temptations, trials, and a million reasons to disobey. The price for disobedience would be spiritual death -- an eternity spent isolated from God (aka Hell). Jesus Christ, God's only begotten Son, offered Himself as a sacrifice for our sins. He was willing to bear the price we would incur by our disobedience. Because He was perfect, He was the only one capable of carrying out this infinite atonement. We couldn't atone for our own sins, because it required perfection, and none of us were perfect. None of us could pay the debt, not only for ourselves, but for everyone else. Christ could and wanted to. To me that truly is extraordinary -- that any perfect being should have that much love in His heart for the millions of people who would ultimately reject Him that He would suffer death for them.

Mental anguish comes from loss of power and Jesus never experienced this.
I disagree. When His Father withdrew His Spirit from Jesus, as He hung on the cross, Jesus recognized that He had been temporarily forsaken. He was on His own. He relinqished His own will and accepted His Father's will instead. That, at least in one respect, was loss of power. He had wanted His Father to "remove the cup," to make it possible for the debt to be repaid without His having to suffer. But that wasn't His Father's will. When He said, "Thy will be done," He relinquished His power to His Father.
 
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