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Did Jesus really suffer?

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Ryan2065, Aug 4, 2005.

  1. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    If You think I did not realize that point, from www.cin.org/archives/cinporch/...From: "Wenonah Kateri" <wenonah_at_unix.asb.com>
    Subject: "Eloi, Eloi, Lama Sabachthani"
    Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 14:34:35 -0400



    "Eloi, Eloi, Lama Sabachthani" *
    by Keith Clayton, Jr.
    (1968 - 1998)


    * A cry uttered by Jesus Christ while dying on the cross, preserved in the
    original Aramaic:
    "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?"



    Father,
    Now the sun is risen,
    I thank Thee for Thy silent strength
    Given me in my hour of despair--
    When the darkness
    Seemed to smother,
    And the tears
    I selfishly shed
    For my own pain
    And trivial troubles
    Shut out the light,
    And I rendered myself
    Alone.


    Father,
    Now Thy Son is risen,
    I thank Thee for allowing One
    So much greater than I
    Thine Only Begotten,
    Flesh of Thy flesh,
    To complete a task so
    Wonderful and
    Terrible
    By leaving Him
    Necessarily
    Alone.


    Father,
    In the garden green of Olivet,
    In the still and solitude
    The Creator of everything
    Offered up all He had,
    And submitted Himself
    To all the vengeance of Hell;
    And in His hour of need,
    The Friend of the friendless
    Was forsaken,
    Forgotten,
    For what?
    Although the spirit was willing
    The flesh indeed was weak;
    And they slumbered,
    Leaving Him,
    The Balm of mortal pain,
    To suffer,
    Alone.


    In the beauty of that desert place,
    The Savior of mankind
    Faced all the ugliness
    His charges could offer:
    The pain, the hate,
    The sin, the sorrow,
    The waste, the wickedness,
    The pride, the poverty,
    The deceit, the ignorance,
    The doubt, the fear,
    The betrayal
    --And even the
    Loneliness--
    Alone.


    As His immortal, righteous blood
    Was spilled, like sweat
    From every pore
    And fell to the thirsty earth below,
    I cannot hide
    My honor and my awe
    At His great love for me;
    Neither can I hide
    My shame,
    Self-reproach
    And regret. For
    How many of those precious drops
    Am I responsible for?
    --As He suffered
    The bitter cup,
    Alone.


    The longest night
    the world will ever know,
    The solstice of eternity,
    Fell on Emmanuel
    And by the light of torches
    The Light of the world,
    The very God of Love,
    Was betrayed by a kiss,
    Enslaved by strangers,
    Rejected by His own,
    Denied by those who
    Knew Him best,
    And led away
    In chains
    Alone.


    How it must have hurt Thee
    To witness the sufferings
    Of Thy Beloved
    Inflicted by Thine other children--
    Those whom He had come to save;
    To steadfastly persevere,
    And answer not a word,
    Amidst the jeers
    The blows,
    The spit
    And scorn;
    To see His perfect body torn,
    His perfect soul rent in anguish,
    Staggering and fainting beneath
    The evil and imperfection
    Of all mortality
    Collectively
    Alone.


    And Thou,
    Beyond the grasp of human pain
    Did surely mourn at the
    Mocking of His misery
    By so many witnesses and
    Beneficiaries of His
    Miracles and ministry--
    Those who knew better;
    Who unworthily
    And ungratefully
    Bore Thy birthright;
    Those with whom Thou had
    Cut they covenant
    Now cut the flesh of Thy Son
    Deliberately.
    And in the crowded mob
    He wept
    Alone.


    Down the winding passages of
    The City of Peace,
    Stumbled the Prince of Peace.
    Plaited thorns adorned His crown;
    Stripped of all but His
    Mantle of Duty;
    How it must have burdened Thee
    To see Thine Own,
    Who in innocence
    Did glorify Thy name,
    Bearing a scapegoat's load--
    The weight thereof
    Not unfamiliar to Thee,
    Which could so mercifully have been loosed
    By Thy Omnipotence;
    Yet in the name of mercy
    Didst Thou allow
    This charade of justice
    To continue.
    At a crossroads He was lifted up
    Upon the cruel cross.
    And in His torment,
    When He needed Thee most,
    Thou left Him
    Unwillingly
    Alone.


    Father,
    In the vastness of Thy creations,
    was there any place large enough
    To contain the immensity
    Of Thy sorrow?
    Was there any place small enough
    And far enough away
    To hide from the pleas and cries
    Of Thy suffering Son?
    Until the moment He pronounced
    "It is finished."
    Triumphing, at last
    Alone.


    In olden times, the Scriptures say
    Thou wert a jealous God described;
    I think I know now why--
    Jealous lest man ever
    Slight,
    Forget,
    Or with anything replace
    The memory of the Sacrifice
    Made by Thy Son
    Alone.


    O Father,
    I thank Thee
    For sacrificing Thy
    Fatherhood for Thy
    Godhood, by
    Giving us Thy Son
    To pay the ransom we could not.
    And by so doing,
    Thy righteous heart was broken also--
    For what Father could bear to see
    His helpless child suffer
    And not rush to his aid?
    --Instead, to leave him
    Intentionally
    Alone.


    O Father,
    I thank Thee
    That through the tears that fell
    From His eyes
    And from Thine,
    That my tears may be dried
    And my eyes opened
    To the Hope of my Salvation,
    And the reassurance of my
    Eternal worth
    --In spite of myself--
    That my meager life
    Was worth dying for.
    And He died
    For me, and
    Because of me,
    That I might live for Him,
    In all my days serving Him
    As tool and ambassador
    Of the love He had for us;
    The love that gave purpose to His life
    And life to His purpose.
    Father, I acknowledge my
    Hungering need
    To bear and be borne by the
    Unconditional Love of Christ,
    Who unselfishly serves all those who but
    Come unto Him.
    As Counsellor,
    Advocate
    And Friend;
    That neither I,
    Nor any of us
    Need ever be
    Alone.


    Father,
    Let me let Him in!
    Let His Light fill the recesses of my soul,
    That darkness and evil
    Find no place.
    Let me always make room
    For Him for Whom the inn was full.
    Let your Spirit make me wise enough
    To seek the King of Kings
    As the Magi did;
    And as
    Wise men
    Still and
    Always do.
    Let me ever joy
    In that same glory
    That was witnessed
    To lowly shepherds
    Long ago.
    Praise be
    To the Father
    And the Son!
    The glory be
    To Him and Thee
    Alone.


    Please bless me,
    Dear Father,
    That I may live my days
    In remembrance
    Of Him Whose hands
    First sculpted me in clay.
    Whose hands now rest in Thine;
    Those hands
    Thou once suffered
    To be pierced
    For my sake.
    Father, wouldst Thou bless me,
    That as He bore my burdens,
    I may lift all those around me
    With whom I share this
    Borrowed existence--
    For Thy sacrifice,
    And His,
    Was not for me
    Alone.


    And in His name may I
    Heal the poor in Spirit,
    Feed those enhungered
    Of body or soul;
    Build up where others tear down;
    Make Peace
    Spread Love;
    Share
    His
    Hope;
    That as I represent Him
    In my small corner of the world,
    No one I meet
    Will ever be
    In need,
    In doubt,
    or
    Alone.



    Copyright 1998 Connie Clayton
    For the author
    Keith Clayton, Jr.
    (1968 - 1998)
    www.compucast.com/easter.html


    Reprinted with permission Free to duplicate and distribute free of charge. :)
    (please include site address)
     
  2. DreamQuickBook

    DreamQuickBook Active Member

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    And I'm just glad that I don't have to watch my god be humiliated.
     
  3. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    With great respect Jocose - I don't think you can even begin to imagine..................:(
     
  4. DreamQuickBook

    DreamQuickBook Active Member

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    You mean Jesus' humiliation? No... I can imagine. I'm just not sure I can imagine anything worse. Of course, he is now thought of as a God. So, I don't know. Might have been worth it to him.
     
  5. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    Sorry Michel... I was responding to Ryan2065 and not to you! :D
     
  6. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Arggghhhhhhh! I thought you thought I thought ...............oh blast - you know what I mean!:p
     
  7. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    You are not alone.

    Matthew 16:21 From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.

    22 Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him. "Never, Lord!" he said. "This shall never happen to you!"

    23 Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men." NIV
     
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  8. Ryan2065

    Ryan2065 Well-Known Member

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    Something just poped into my head that I am not able to grasp. Ok, here it is... are you all ready?

    God is a sick sick individual!

    My proof. God, according to christians, is all powerful. This means there is nothing he cannot do. He sent his son down to earth to die for all christians sins and open the gates of heaven for us. Could he have not opened the gates of heaven without the sacrifice of his son? Why did the all powerful god have to sacrifice his son, and put him through all that pain? You all make it seem like he had no other choice...
     
  9. DreamQuickBook

    DreamQuickBook Active Member

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    Thank Satan that someone out there is looking out for the things of men. ;)
     
  10. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Ryan, you have not one iota of the ability to accept the concept, the value of God's love - I don't think anyone could get through to you! For crying out loud, if it was that simple...............aggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhh I need a cold shower.:bonk:

    And, while we are at it your " God is a sick sick individual!" is beyond the pale - I will let it go, but please do not sink to that level - you have crossed the boundary of debate and have broken a rule; please do NOT do it again - and that is with my 'MOD' hat on.:)
     
  11. DreamQuickBook

    DreamQuickBook Active Member

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    Yes. See. Human sin is really bad. And God can't just forgive it without doing something really bad in return. Killing Himself, or his son, was the only thing that could pay the price.

    Is that it?
     
  12. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    :eek: I'm shocked!.... hehe...just kidding.:D

    You are correct... God could have saved us in whichever way He chose... prior to Jesus, he sent prophets... signs... signals... stories... myths.... It just didn't seem to get the job done.

    So God did something for us beyond reason... he became man.... and died to save all of humanity. Jesus freely offered himself for our salvation. Beforehand, during the Last Supper, he both symbolized this offering and made it really present: "This is my body which is given for you" (Lk 22:19).
     
  13. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    They say that knowing is half of the battle!

    No. On top of God's "other" limitations, he can not create a stone so massive that he can't lift it. If it could have happened differently, it would have.

    Matthew 26:36 Then Jesus went with his disciples to a place called Gethsemane, and he said to them, "Sit here while I go over there and pray." 37 He took Peter and the two sons of Zebedee along with him, and he began to be sorrowful and troubled. 38 Then he said to them, "My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death. Stay here and keep watch with me."


    39 Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."

    40 Then he returned to his disciples and found them sleeping. "Could you men not keep watch with me for one hour?" he asked Peter. 41 "Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the body is weak."

    42 He went away a second time and prayed, "My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done."

    43 When he came back, he again found them sleeping, because their eyes were heavy. 44 So he left them and went away once more and prayed the third time, saying the same thing. 45 Then he returned to the disciples and said to them, "Are you still sleeping and resting? Look, the hour is near, and the Son of Man is betrayed into the hands of sinners. 46 Rise, let us go! Here comes my betrayer!" NIV
     
  14. Ryan2065

    Ryan2065 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, god loved me so much so that he sent his only son down to be humiliated, tortured, and eventually crucified just to show me that he existed. To me he could have done the same thing by opening the heavens, telling everyone on earth who he was, then opening the gates of heaven himself. This way he would not mess with free will or anything of the sort. But this more goes into argueing then question of how meaningful Jesus' death was.

    I know that Jesus suffered physical pain... this is not being debated. The thing that is being debated is I was always told Jesus felt humans pain when he was crucified, but how can this be so when he KNEW he was the son of god and he KNEW he was going to heaven.

    I don't think you are seeing my side of the coin here. How much mental anguish can one go through when they know that they are the son of god. You say that the sacrifice was that Jesus could have stopped it but he went through it, this shows that he had the power and the only things that happened were in his power to change. Mental anguish comes from loss of power and Jesus never experienced this.
     
  15. Ryan2065

    Ryan2065 Well-Known Member

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    Heh, off topic... My theology teacher said the answer to that question is that God can both make a stone so big that he can't lift it and he can lift it. It apparently all had to do with the fact that god can go back in time... I dunno...
     
  16. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    It's a logical conundrum... a red herring. It's only meant to make you miss the REAL point. :D
     
  17. Scott1

    Scott1 Well-Known Member

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    I guess we have a different definition of free will...
    First, how do you know what Jesus "KNEW"? .... and second, if I walk up to you and tell you that I'm going to punch you in the face... but you knew that your broken nose would eventually heal and the pain would go away, think you might be still a little bit afraid?
    No.. mental anguish comes from looking at a world full of people who run from your love... a world that kills .... a world that could be so wonderful, yet is far from so.... matter of fact, I'm feeling a little mental anguish thinking about it.
     
  18. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    "Eloi, Eloi! Lama Sabachthani!"

    I don't think you are listening to me.
     
  19. michel

    michel Administrator Emeritus
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    Sorry, I have come to the conclusion that we come from different planets...........:eek:

    Mental anguish comes from loss of power and Jesus never experienced this. - I was going to answer "Even greater is mental anguish when you know you could use power, but you choose the 'painful 'way out - but, Scott's answer is much better than mine.:)
     
  20. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    I don't believe God forced His Son into this situation, though. And I definitely don't see Jesus' sacrifice as necessary to prove that God existed. It certainly didn't prove anything you you, nor did it to millions of other people. That's not what the Atonement was about at all.

    The way I see it (and I admit, my perspective is not the same as that of most Christians), we human beings existed in a spirit state prior to our births and lived in the presence of God. We had a choice as to whether or not to experience mortality. We understood that this was an experience that would be necessary in order for us to progress. This was something we wanted, but we knew that it involved risks. We knew that perfect obedience to God's commandments would be required in order for us to return to God's presence, because no unclean thing can exist with Him. We knew that there would be temptations, trials, and a million reasons to disobey. The price for disobedience would be spiritual death -- an eternity spent isolated from God (aka Hell). Jesus Christ, God's only begotten Son, offered Himself as a sacrifice for our sins. He was willing to bear the price we would incur by our disobedience. Because He was perfect, He was the only one capable of carrying out this infinite atonement. We couldn't atone for our own sins, because it required perfection, and none of us were perfect. None of us could pay the debt, not only for ourselves, but for everyone else. Christ could and wanted to. To me that truly is extraordinary -- that any perfect being should have that much love in His heart for the millions of people who would ultimately reject Him that He would suffer death for them.

    I disagree. When His Father withdrew His Spirit from Jesus, as He hung on the cross, Jesus recognized that He had been temporarily forsaken. He was on His own. He relinqished His own will and accepted His Father's will instead. That, at least in one respect, was loss of power. He had wanted His Father to "remove the cup," to make it possible for the debt to be repaid without His having to suffer. But that wasn't His Father's will. When He said, "Thy will be done," He relinquished His power to His Father.
     
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