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Did Jesus really suffer?

Discussion in 'Biblical Debates' started by Ryan2065, Aug 4, 2005.

  1. IndigoChild

    IndigoChild Member

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    Suffering is a state of mind. Jesus was a Master. So, no... I don't think he suffered.

    Kat
     
  2. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    That's funny. I always thought it had something to do with nerve endings and the brain's response to them being stimulated.
     
  3. Quiddity

    Quiddity UndertheInfluenceofGiants

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    If I had to suffer and die in order to be called god. I would do it. Although I don't know how I would pull off the resurrection. :D

    The Least
    ~Victor
     
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  4. KirbyFan101

    KirbyFan101 Resident Ball of Fluff

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    Jesus supposedly died for the very people killing him.

    An ironic, and magnificant feat.
     
  5. dhiannian

    dhiannian New Member

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    Psalms 22:14
    "I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint; my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
    15
    My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
    16
    For dogs have compassed me; the assembly of the wicked have enclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
    17
    I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
    18
    They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
    19
    But be not thou far from me, O Lord: O my strength, haste thee to help me.

     
  6. Quiddity

    Quiddity UndertheInfluenceofGiants

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    Dhiannian, what exactly do you conclude from that?

    ~Victor
     
  7. EnhancedSpirit

    EnhancedSpirit High Priestess

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    Jesus suffered the same pain and sadness that all humans do. He just never accepted the 'victim' mentality.

    If God opened the sky and showed himself, we would be right back to the burning bush mentality. God has already made himself known.

    Jesus was sent to us to show us how to become one with God. And he shows us not by preaching one thing, and living another. He led us by example. He showed us that you can face your enemies and your fears with love and understanding and peace in your heart.
     
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  8. greatcalgarian

    greatcalgarian Well-Known Member

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    Again I like to state my simple logic of the three properties that cannot coexist at the same time and still make logical sense:
    If God is defined as omniscience, omnipotent, omnibenevalent, all at the same time from beginning to eternity, the whole episode of sending his only begotten Son to die [a very non omnibenevalent act on his son] for the sin of human being he created imperfect in the first place (let us forget about the free will arguement, as a perfect human being even given the free will, is impossible to be tempted and go against God, some one that can be tempted to do wrong thing is not perfect) is simply beyong the current logic of human brain, if you do not have the part of the brain that can response to the thing known as faith.

    Hence, for all non-theist, the best explanation is that all these are just the mysterious way God has acted and directed. To argue in details will be splitting hair, and argue for the shake of arguing.

    Some even suggested that when Jesus was on earth, he was not exactly equal to God (Would Satan attempt to tempt God? He must have known that Jesus in the human form may not be as powerful or all knowing like before or like God the Father up in the heaven (or omnipotent/omniscience). Hence Satan thought it is worth trying) during that stage of his existence, so that he can really experience body (physical cruxification) and mental (the feeling that has been forshaken by the Father) suffering. We have to presume that God the father or God the Holy Ghost cannot suffer or do not know suffering per se, and only God the Son, after assuming the human form for the brief 30 odd years on earth can.

    If we factor in the imposition of 'free will', then not even God who knows the future (omniscience) will know who will choose what (to accept or not to accept Jesus) until he exercised his choice. Therefore in a way, when Jesus died on the cross, he has no foreknowledge that his suffering will save human race or not. He may not even know God the father will re-surrect him or not, there fore the famous 'Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani". This proves that Jesus has to suffer immense mental torture.
    Since Jesus did not know what is going to happen to him as we can deduce from Mark 15:34, we may conclude that he did suffer. Therefore during his lifespan on earth, Jesus is NOT omniscience, omnipotent, and omnibenevalent. Hence he has to pray to God, since he is not sure what is going to happen next, and he needed the prayer to work for him. He has temper, when he got angry in the temple etc. So I presume during his life time on earth, he has transformed from his previous self (as Catholic claimed that Jesus coexisted with God the Father from the beginning), and only have some vague idea of what he previously was before he enter the womb of Mary via the work of the holy spirit. However he has to remain sin-free throughout his whole life on earth, and I am not sure whether he has free will during that time, or he was born with a perfect brain that will not let him err and commit any sin, or the holy spirit was with him all the time to guide him and ensure that he did no sin. So during the time he was being cruxified on the cross, he was 'human', and suffered.

    Does all these make sense, or am I talking nonsense?:D
     
  9. greatcalgarian

    greatcalgarian Well-Known Member

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    Don't worry, have faith in God the Father, make sure you call to Him neat to dying, "Eloi, Eloi", and He will pull off the resurrection.:bounce

    We are all God's children, He will not forshake us.
     
  10. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    So where does " omniscience, omnipotent, omnibenevalent," as a description of God come from? Have any scriptural references?
     
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  11. greatcalgarian

    greatcalgarian Well-Known Member

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    No exact scriptural references for all the three together, but these are often emphasize during Sunday and in most Christian web page, and apologetic evangelists:D

    I shall search for the scriptural references (most likely in Psalm) if you are interested to know the exact location:)
     
  12. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    Oh please, would you? I don't think you are going to find those terms in the scriptures though.
     
  13. greatcalgarian

    greatcalgarian Well-Known Member

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    I have to go and consult the Greek and Hebrew expert to find the equivalent of those three words, then I can look through the online Greek Bible to find it for you. Give me time, give me time, may be one or two years:D
     
  14. Katzpur

    Katzpur Not your average Mormon

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    Ryan,

    That's right. He had no choice because He laid out the rules right up front, and He is constant. He said, in essence, "Obey me and be blessed; disobey me and you must pay the price -- the price being separation from Him forever." By sinning, each of us has incurred a debt. A price must be paid in order for the debt to be cancelled. But since we are all imperfect, the only person who could have paid the price was one who was perfect. And that was Jesus Christ. If God had made the rules and then simply said they don't matter after all, He wouldn't be God. We couldn't trust Him. He had to keep His word. By allowing one who was perfect to repay the debt, the demands of both mercy and justice were satisfied.

    Kathryn
     
  15. greatcalgarian

    greatcalgarian Well-Known Member

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    Okay, would you accept the following:

    If it is acceptable, then a google search on bible of your choice of version with the English word "almighty" will be able to provide you with hundreds if not thousands of biblical script giving that quality to God.:D

    Okay, and here goes the Catholic on almighty:
    http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/1304.htm
    And on Trinity, the The Athanasian Creed:
    Do not get excited, I know, I know, these are not in the Bible Script, but these are words from early Fathers, who knows the bible in and out. So if they said God is Almighty, it has to be true, and has to be from the Script as well.:D

    Be patient, I have to google the bible to find places with the word almighty
     
  16. greatcalgarian

    greatcalgarian Well-Known Member

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    Okay a search of KJV turned out too many scripture on Almighty:
    http://www.christiananswers.net/cgi-bin/htsearch?words=almighty&restrict=%2Fbible%2F&exclude=&format=long&sort=score&htsearch=1&x=14&y=17
    Genesis 17 NASV / NKJV / NIV Chapter 17 1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.
    Genesis 48, Behold, thy son Joseph cometh unto thee: and Israel strengthened himself, and sat upon the bed. 3 And Jacob said unto Joseph, God Almighty appeared unto me at Luz in the land of Canaan, and blessed me,
    Genesis 28 daughers of Laban thy mother's brother. 3 And God Almighty bless thee, and make thee fruitful, and multiply thee, that thou mayest be a multitude of people; 4 And give thee the blessing of Abraham,
    Revelation 1 Amen. 8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. 9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called

    Are you convinced that God in the bible is Almighty = Omnipotent?
     
  17. Scuba Pete

    Scuba Pete Le plongeur avec attitude...

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    I'll accept almighty.

    You have two more to go to continue your premise.
     
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