Can One be both Gay and Muslim?

Autodidact said:

You said
If I understand you, you're saying that if you maintain that it's not forbidden to be gay, then you are not a Muslim. However, since lesbianism is not forbidden or even mentioned in the qur'an, surely once can maintain that being a lesbian is not forbidden in Islam, and still be a Muslim.

To argue that it is forbidden, you would have to accept hadiths as having the power to forbid, and you would have to accept as valid the particular hadiths that speak against it.

The case is quite different for gay men.

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The Hadiths have the power to forbid, as in we base our positions on right and wrong depending on Hadiths too, not only the Quran. So, if we consider that the Quran doesn't say anything about lesbianism, doesn't mean Islam hasn't forbidden it. However, if you are talking about Quran only believers (i'm not sure what is there position from lesbianism), there is room to argue that lesbianism is not forbidden, although i wouldn't agree, but there is room. As for Muslims who accept Hadiths, they can't do that because i think there is a Hadith that says that lesbianism is prohibited.

*Anne* said:

Quick question about homosexuality and Islam, for anyone who would like to answer:

If science found a genetic variant that linked with homosexuality, would that change anything for you? I realize it wouldn't negate what has been stated in the Quran, but would it lead you to consider perhaps a different interpretation?

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Do you mean if we found out that they are born with homosexual urges and that they are born completely attracted to the same sex?

If that's what you mean, i think they already put that possibility in mind when making the verdict about homosexuality. However, if something new comes up, that we didn't have in mind, we should revise our interpretation again. But we can't change the interpretations based on anything, except what the words reveal. In other words, there is no room in Islam for the idea of fitting the words to our position right now, or to fit our understanding and views on things.

Badran said:

Do you mean if we found out that they are born with homosexual urges and that they are born completely attracted to the same sex?

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*nods* Right.

Not so much that a percentage of the population would have "urges," but that they would truly be a legitimate genetic variant of normal.

I've been thinking about these discussions for a few days, and I find myself wondering why I have the sexual orientation that I do. I find men to be wonderful, and women don't even register on my radar. One man in particular has my heart, and I can't imagine being told that I would not be allowed to love him, and that I must find another. Worse, I can't fathom being told that my love for him is repulsive and criminal. How heartbreaking.

There must be something in my DNA that makes me appreciate men and love my husband so dearly. And if God made us, then he obviously made me this way. I haven't chosen to love men ~ I'm programmed.

If scientists find evidence of homosexuality in a person's genetic makeup, then wouldn't God have had a hand in that creation as well?

I can't help but wonder if this kind of information would lead some to re-evaluate their position.

*Anne* said:

*nods* Right.

Not so much that a percentage of the population would have "urges," but that they would truly be a legitimate genetic variant of normal.

I've been thinking about these discussions for a few days, and I find myself wondering why I have the sexual orientation that I do. I find men to be wonderful, and women don't even register on my radar. One man in particular has my heart, and I can't imagine being told that I would not be allowed to love him, and that I must find another. Worse, I can't fathom being told that my love for him is repulsive and criminal. How heartbreaking.

There must be something in my DNA that makes me appreciate men and love my husband so dearly. And if God made us, then he obviously made me this way. I haven't chosen to love men ~ I'm programmed.


If scientists find evidence of homosexuality in a person's genetic makeup, then wouldn't God have had a hand in that creation as well?

I can't help but wonder if this kind of information would lead some to re-evaluate their position.

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Wether or not their homosexual tendencies or preference is due to that they are born that way, or because of experiences through their lives, it is natural, they can't help the feeling of attraction to the same sex, so it is natural either way.

Also it is not criminal or repulsive, people who call it that way are talking about their personal opinion, not Islam's position from it. Islam regards it in my opinion as a big sin like other big sins, like the examples that you already seen me give before (not praying or not fasting) which obviously aren't crimes and aren't repulsive. It might be repulsive to some, but that doesn't make it so.

If we assume that you are programmed to love someone of your same sex, that doesn't mean you are forced to have sex with them. you can still choose not to, sure that would be hard and seem unfair, but not all of our feelings are to be fulfilled. What i'm trying to say is, if we assume that they are born that way, then i would consider it as another kind of hardship that people have to face in their lives(based on the assumption that God expects them not to fulfill there desires, which they were born with). People get born sometimes with things that trouble them, and make life harder for them. If i assume that they are born homosexuals, and that God expects them not to fulfill there desire, then i can only look at it as a hardship.

Badran said:

Also it is not criminal or repulsive, people who call it that way are talking about their personal opinion, not Islam's position from it. Islam regards it in my opinion as a big sin like other big sins, like the examples that you already seen me give before (not praying or not fasting) which obviously aren't crimes and aren't repulsive. It might be repulsive to some, but that doesn't make it so.

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This I can stomach a little better.

Thank you for chatting with me about it. I know discussing homosexuality with me must seem like talking with a brick wall or playing a broken record. I'll do you all a favor and hush up about it for a while.

*Anne* said:

Quick question about homosexuality and Islam, for anyone who would like to answer:

If science found a genetic variant that linked with homosexuality, would that change anything for you? I realize it wouldn't negate what has been stated in the Quran, but would it lead you to consider perhaps a different interpretation?

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No. Actually what is said now that there are multiple factors leading to homosexuality including the genetic factor.
If we have the potential to be anything, it doesn't justify the immorality of certain actions. It can be said that for example being a thief, cheater or a murderer has a genetic factor, it doesn't mean that murder, cheating or theft are morally okay.

Secondly, there is no room for any different interpretation except maybe deliberately opposing the clear Islamic stance.

Badran said:

No, this shows your inability to accept that not all people agree with you. Just because someone tells me this is what my prophet said doesn't mean he did. That's how it works for me.

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And you believe it's perfectly up to laymen to decide which hadith should be accepted and which shouldn't?

*Anne* said:

Quick question about homosexuality and Islam, for anyone who would like to answer:

If science found a genetic variant that linked with homosexuality, would that change anything for you? I realize it wouldn't negate what has been stated in the Quran, but would it lead you to consider perhaps a different interpretation?

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Response: If one considers to purposely give an interpretion other than the meaning of the qur'an, that person would not be following the will of Allah, thus that person would not be following islam. At the same time, if there was a genetic which linked to homosexuality, I personally would question the qur'an and the religion of islam. That's my honest answer.

Thank you for your replies, Not4Me and Fatihah.

not4me said:

And you believe it's perfectly up to laymen to decide which hadith should be accepted and which shouldn't?

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Not sure what laymen means, but if you mean is it up to anybody to decide which Hadith to follow and which to don't, then of course it is up to them. Now wether is that right or wrong, then it's wrong if it's based on desires or wishes. If it is based on a good reason, an Islamic one, then it's not wrong in my opinion. In other words, any Hadith believer shouldn't discard or reject a Hadith unless there is a very good reason to do so.

So, on the gay issue, would it be fair to say that regardless of the genetic implication of being gay, as long as one does not fulfill their desire for gay relationships, or outwardly claim to be gay, they are still a Muslim in good standing? In other words, as long as they choose to deny their internal programming and do not stray from the accepted norm, all is well and good? My guess is that the reason for this is that being gay is considered to be an actionable choice in Islam.

YmirGF said:

So, on the gay issue, would it be fair to say that regardless of the genetic implication of being gay, as long as one does not fulfill their desire for gay relationships, or outwardly claim to be gay, they are still a Muslim in good standing? In other words, as long as they choose to deny their internal programming and do not stray from the accepted norm, all is well and good? My guess is that the reason for this is that being gay is considered to be an actionable choice in Islam.

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Yes that's the case. Also, If he fulfills his desire but still admits that it is wrong in Islam, as in he didn't refuse any of God's rules, then he is still a Muslim.

Shia have always rejected the Sunni books. Don't be crass not4me.

not4me said:

No. Actually what is said now that there are multiple factors leading to homosexuality including the genetic factor.
If we have the potential to be anything, it doesn't justify the immorality of certain actions. It can be said that for example being a thief, cheater or a murderer has a genetic factor, it doesn't mean that murder, cheating or theft are morally okay.

Secondly, there is no room for any different interpretation except maybe deliberately opposing the clear Islamic stance.

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Still waiting for the Quran quotes that command Muslims to harrass, oppress, persecute and/or murder gays.

Badran said:

Not sure what laymen means, but if you mean is it up to anybody to decide which Hadith to follow and which to don't, then of course it is up to them. Now wether is that right or wrong, then it's wrong if it's based on desires or wishes. If it is based on a good reason, an Islamic one, then it's not wrong in my opinion. In other words, any Hadith believer shouldn't discard or reject a Hadith unless there is a very good reason to do so.

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Layman was used to mean the average Muslim who is not specialized in hadith or Fiqh studies. Sorry badran, anyone will claim that he has a good reason and it's not based on his wishes or desires. Now define what a "good reason" is! What is the criteria used to define the good reason to weaken or refuse a hadith that is accepted as authentic by the scholars of hadith? Because scholars of hadith and Fiqh has their scientific criteria, wondering what are these criteria that can be used by a layman?

AxisMundi said:

Gay isn't a choice, religion is.

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:yes:

not4me said:

Layman was used to mean the average Muslim who is not specialized in hadith or Fiqh studies. Sorry badran, anyone will claim that he has a good reason and it's not based on his wishes or desires. Now define what a "good reason" is! What is the criteria used to define the good reason to weaken or refuse a hadith that is accepted as authentic by the scholars of hadith? Because scholars of hadith and Fiqh has their scientific criteria, wondering what are these criteria that can be used by a layman?

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Let's first clear one thing, find a better way to ask me about my belief. You have no right to tell me "anybody will claim..." because i don't need to convince you of my motives. This is my personal belief, so ask about it in a better manner, because that's what you are entitled to.

As for what would be a good reason, is for example if a hadith contradicts with the teachings of the Quran, or if the hadith contradicts with the teachings of Islam in general. As for hadiths that address things that are not mentioned in the Quran at all, then i will follow it, unless it is completely non-sential or contradicting with commen sense. Also, i put all the scholars opinion and work into consideration, that's why i follow almost all the Hadiths in Bukhari and Muslim, except for a few Hadiths, because of the reasons i already explained.

Badran said:

Let's first clear one thing, find a better way to ask me about my belief. You have no right to tell me "anybody will claim..." because i don't need to convince you of my motives. This is my personal belief, so ask about it in a better manner, because that's what you are entitled to.

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Wow! Why did you take it very emotional and turned it into a personal thing?
I was talking generally until you turned it personally.
Do you think it's reasonable to leave the job of defining what is authentic and what is unauthentic hadith to Muslims who are not specialized in the relevant fields? Or is it more reasonable to leave this job to the specialized scholars? Do you believe it's reasonable to leave extracting Fiqh rules from the Qur'an and the Sunnah to laymen or to leave it to trained specialists?

not4me said:

Layman was used to mean the average Muslim who is not specialized in hadith or Fiqh studies. Sorry badran, anyone will claim that he has a good reason and it's not based on his wishes or desires. Now define what a "good reason" is! What is the criteria used to define the good reason to weaken or refuse a hadith that is accepted as authentic by the scholars of hadith? Because scholars of hadith and Fiqh has their scientific criteria, wondering what are these criteria that can be used by a layman?

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not4me said:

Wow! Why did you take it very emotional and turned it into a personal thing?
I was talking generally until you turned it personally.
Do you think it's reasonable to leave the job of defining what is authentic and what is unauthentic hadith to Muslims who are not specialized in the relevant fields? Or is it more reasonable to leave this job to the specialized scholars? Do you believe it's reasonable to leave extracting Fiqh rules from the Qur'an and the Sunnah to laymen or to leave it to trained specialists?

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Maybe you are misunderstanding where Badran is comming from. Good reason is logical, many people know this. Are you questioning his faith?

not4me said:

Wow! Why did you take it very emotional and turned it into a personal thing?

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Well, you leave me no choice really. Wether it's the obvious sarcastic manner you are talking in, or saying "anyone will claim....", it is not that hard to see why i was insulted, because you already know that i reject certain Hadiths. May be that wasn't your intention, but you should have worded it in a better way, if you were just discussing our views.

not4me said:

BTW, you manage very well to evade the questions.
Do you think it's reasonable to leave the job of defining what is authentic and what is unauthentic hadith to Muslims who are not specialized in the relevant fields? Or is it more reasonable to leave this job to the specialized scholars? Do you believe it's reasonable to leave extracting Fiqh rules from the Qur'an and the Sunnah to laymen or to leave it to trained specialists?

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Of course it's better to leave the job to specialized the scholars. That's why i read all there explanations first, before deciding my position from a certain Hadith. That's why i had a very hard time into coming to the choice of rejecting those particular Hadiths.

However that doesn't mean that they can't be wrong, and it doesn't mean i should agree with them no matter what. Which i already clarified before, because just because a Hadith is considered authentic, doesn't mean it is 100% assured with no doubt to be true. All of this i explained before, and you asked me about it before.