Why is being gay considered wrong?

Sabio said:

Draka,

Since I put my wife first, and love her the way "Christ loves the church", she is more than happy to submit to me. This is what I consider enlightened, a husband who is willing to humble himself and put his wife first and submit himself to Christ, and a wife who is humble and willing to submit to her husband. This is not subservient, this is following the biblical example of "two flesh becoming one".

How can a gay Christian couple apply this, since there is either 2 husbands or 2 wives? Who has to submit to the other partner and who submits to God?

Sabio

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Why is it not possible for them to do both? Submit to god and to each other? A give and take? A mutual understanding and respect with neither in a subservient role or in a domineering role. Why is that not possible?

Draka said:

Ok, let me be more specific then. Both couples are married. There are states in which homosexual marriages are legal and are even performed by clergy. So if both couples are married is it still wrong for the homosexual couple to have sex?

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Yep... just because a secular law make it "legal" for them to marry, does not make it moral in the eyes of my Church.

Again... I'm not judging anyone.... my sister and her partner have been "married" for 4 years now... I went to the ceremony.... I love them both and wish them the best.... but when they asked me what I believe, I told them... and with love and respect, they understand.... I pray you do as well.

Saibo said:

Some of you have stated that you are gay and Christian, I am addressing this to you specifically.

What do you interpret the following passage from the bible to mean?
In a gay union who submits to who? How can you obey this scripture?

Sabio


Ephesians 5 22Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.

23For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

24Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

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Sorry, you must have missed where I responded to this.... Basically it does not apply to a gay marriage =) I am sure that there are some passages in the Bible that do not apply to you. Like I am sure you don't get much out of the passage that details the rules of slave trading in Exodus... Or do you? :areyoucra

Sabio said:

Some of you have stated that you are gay and Christian, I am addressing this to you specifically.

What do you interpret the following passage from the bible to mean?
In a gay union who submits to who? How can you obey this scripture?

Sabio


Ephesians 5 22Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.

23For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.

24Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.

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Sabio,

Just to reiterate a point - there is no sin in being gay; the sin only becomes one when there is sex within that gay relationship.........

Mr_Spinkles said:

This argument fails at every concievable level. For one thing, it's not a "perfect fit", as you later admit...."

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Please explain "how" the argument fails.

Mr_Spinkles said:

Furthermore, our bodies weren't "designed" to do a lot of things. We weren't "designed" to do the splits, but that doesn't make ballerinas immoral, now does it?....

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You have not proved that doing "what are bodies weren't designed to do" is moral.

Mr_Spinkles said:

Something to do with "complimentarity" and "harmony"....code-words for the circular argument: "It's wrong because it's wrong."

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Do you and your girl compliment each other? Do you live in harmony with one another? Are you a good fit? Then you know what the definitions mean, they are defining terms not circular.

Sabio

Scott1 said:

Yep... just because a secular law make it "legal" for them to marry, does not make it moral in the eyes of my Church.

Again... I'm not judging anyone.... my sister and her partner have been "married" for 4 years now... I went to the ceremony.... I love them both and wish them the best.... but when they asked me what I believe, I told them... and with love and respect, they understand.... I pray you do as well.

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Scott, by your beliefs, it must pain you greatly to know that your sister will never reach the Kingdom of Heaven and you will never be reunited with her. For I highly doubt that they have never engaged in any sexual activity in these past 4 years. Doesn't that hurt you to think she will not receive the same reward as you?

Draka said:

Scott, by your beliefs, it must pain you greatly to know that your sister will never reach the Kingdom of Heaven and you will never be reunited with her. For I highly doubt that they have never engaged in any sexual activity in these past 4 years. Doesn't that hurt you to think she will not receive the same reward as you?

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Hehe.... nice try... but you don't know my beliefs.

I don't doubt for a second that she will go to heaven.

Scott1 said:

Hehe.... nice try... but you don't know my beliefs.

I don't doubt for a second that she will go to heaven.

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me and my lesbian sister will see ya'll there

michel said:

Sabio,

Just to reiterate a point - there is no sin in being gay; the sin only becomes one when there is sex within that gay relationship.........

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Michel,

I am not questioing this point, or anything about sex. I am questioning how gay marriages can fit into this biblical (perfect) model of the marriage relationship (see scripture I quoted)? If God has intentionally created people "gay", then where in the bible is God's model for the perfect gay marriage?

Sabio

Ryan2065 said:

Sorry, you must have missed where I responded to this.... Basically it does not apply to a gay marriage =) I am sure that there are some passages in the Bible that do not apply to you. Like I am sure you don't get much out of the passage that details the rules of slave trading in Exodus... Or do you? :areyoucra

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Actually the teachings on slave trading do convince me that slavery is wrong, but that is another subject.

I was addressing gay Christians, who believe in the BIble, so it does apply to them, maybe not to you.

Sabio

Saibo said:

Michel,

I am not questioing this point, or anything about sex. I am questioning how gay marriages can fit into this biblical (perfect) model of the marriage relationship (see scripture I quoted)? If God has intentionally created people "gay", then where in the bible is God's model for the perfect gay marriage?

Sabio

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Please quote the scripture where god says "You shall only marry someone of the same sex." =)

Saibo said:

I was addressing gay Christians, who believe in the BIble, so it does apply to them, maybe not to you.

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I was saying that you believe in the bible but not everything applies to you. There are some passages that refer only to women. They do not apply to you. Why then can you say that the marriage passages apply to all marriages when they do not say they do? Find me a scripture passage that says that you can only marry someone of the same sex and I'll drop the argument.

Scott--

Scott1 said:

Nonesense. I've given several examples of what I believe.... to reduce my faith to "the Church says so" is a weak attempt to discredit the arguments by attacking the source.

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I beg your pardon, Scott, but I can't discredit arguments that aren't there. Nor have I attacked the "source" (e.g. the Church). You did not, in fact, present an argument, but merely a more formal version of what you believe to be true, and based it on assumptions which are in dispute.

When I asked:

Why could [homosexuals] not base their sex on an inseperable connection, established by God, which man or woman on his/her own initiative may not break (or do you believe this is possible)?

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You offered:

Scott said:

we believe that God created the human race in his own image (both man and woman) and that God inscribed in the humanity of man and woman the vocation, and thus the capacity and responsibility, of love and communion.

Everyone, man and woman, should acknowledge and accept his sexual identity. Physical, moral, and spiritual difference and complementarity are oriented toward the goods of marriage and the flourishing of family life. The harmony of the couple and of society depends in part on the way in which the complementarity, needs, and mutual support between the sexes are lived out.

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That's nice that you believe that....it's equally nice that Hindus believe that inter-cast relationships are sources of disharmony, and that many Kenyans believe that left-handedness is intrinsically wrong. However, there is a difference between stating your beliefs, and supporting them. Left unsupported, these statements of belief are not very convincing. I'm afraid your response was simply a series of eloquent claims based on assumptions with which your audience (me) disagrees.....to call it an "argument" would be absurd, unless you were talking to someone who already agrees with the assumption that "God inscribed in the humanity of man and woman the vocation, ..." etc.

Scott1 said:

You can promote your atheists views here all day long Spinks.. just please bring an argument....

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You first.

Ryan2065 said:

Please quote the scripture where god says "You shall only marry someone of the same sex." =)

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Matthew 19:4-6 (King James Version)

4And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
5And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?

6Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

Ryan,

Now please find me some Bible scripture where God tells men to marry men or women to marry women! Or where God calls two men "one flesh".

Sabio

Sabio said:

Michel,

I am not questioing this point, or anything about sex. I am questioning how gay marriages can fit into this biblical (perfect) model of the marriage relationship (see scripture I quoted)? If God has intentionally created people "gay", then where in the bible is God's model for the perfect gay marriage?

Sabio

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I was not intimating that God intentionally created gay people - although for the sake of this argument, let's assume he did. I am sure that God did not intentionally created people who hate others because of the colour of their skin. Neither did God create people with bad deformaties - or autistic children ; these are all examples of deficiencies in the gene pool (I say that without knowledge - if I am wrong, someone will surely put me right).

To my way of thinking, we (humans) are the ones responsible for the abberations of nature - one such example being those deformed because their mothers took thalidomide - I could go on. Life is not 'fair' - we each have our particular cross to bear -of course, if you choose not to bear it...........:help:

Ryan2065 said:

I was saying that you believe in the bible but not everything applies to you. There are some passages that refer only to women. They do not apply to you. Why then can you say that the marriage passages apply to all marriages when they do not say they do? Find me a scripture passage that says that you can only marry someone of the same sex and I'll drop the argument.

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Even the refernces in the Bible that are directed toward women apply to me. They give me insight into how God designed women, and that helps me understand my wife. Don't you want to undestand your wife Ryan?

Sabio

jewscout said:

me and my lesbian sister will see ya'll there

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Amen, brother!

Spinks said:

You first.

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Well... we'll just have to let this one lie... "big brother" is watching .... but I just gotta say that I grow tired of having to "prove God" in EVERY thread.... you don't believe in God=super ... but let those of us who do carry on a conversation without this kinda stuff.... please?

Sabio said:

You have not proved that doing "what are bodies weren't designed to do" is moral.

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No, I haven't. Nor did I ever intend to prove that, nor do I believe it to be true. Let's review:

1) You suggested that homosexual sex is wrong because the body is not "designed" for it
2) IF the "design" of the body is a valid criterion for judging whether an activity is right or wrong, THEN all activities which we are not "designed" for should be wrong.
3) Assuming that we are not "designed" to do the splits or do many other activities which ballerinas and athletes enjoy and....
4) ....assuming that doing the splits or engaging in other enjoyable athletic activities are not wrong.....
5) THEN not all activities that we are not "designed" for are wrong. THEREFORE
6) Whether or not we are "designed" to do something is NOT a valid criterion for judging whether or not an activity is wrong.

Every step of the above is pure logic, except #3 and #4, which are assumptions. Do you agree with the assumptions made in #3 and #4?

Sabio said:

Do you and your girl compliment each other? Do you live in harmony with one another? Are you a good fit?

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Yes. I also know gay couples who compliment each other, who live in harmony with one another, and who are a good fit. So?

Sabio said:

Then you know what the definitions mean, they are defining terms not circular.

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I know what the definitions mean, I just don't see anything "inharmonious" or "uncomplimentary" about homosexual couples.

Scott1 said:

you don't believe in God=super ... but let those of us who do carry on a conversation without this kinda stuff.... please?

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Never! I won't go down without a fight...once I get started on something, I just keep-- hey, The Simpsons are on!

Ryan2065 said:

Find me a scripture passage that says that you can only marry someone of the same sex and I'll drop the argument.

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Your response

Saibo said:

Matthew 19:4-6 (King James Version)

4And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
5And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?

6Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

Ryan,

Now please find me some Bible scripture where God tells men to marry men or women to marry women! Or where God calls two men "one flesh".

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In this passage Jesus was responding to people who were asking him about divorce. Also, Jesus said nothing to imply that gay marriage is bad. I am still waiting for something that says gay marriage is not allowed.

*Edit* Did some editing of my wording...

Scott1 said:

Hehe.... nice try... but you don't know my beliefs.

I don't doubt for a second that she will go to heaven.

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Scott, I wasn't "trying" to be smart or anything. You have expressed your beliefs that the act of homosexual sex is a sin against god. I was merely saying that if your beliefs are that those who sin willfully against god are denied Heaven that it would be painful to think of that for you. If I am wrong then fine. Wasn't meaning anything bad when I said that.