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what's your stance on predestination
- Thread starter Shane H.
- Start date
Shadow Wolf
Certified People sTabber
I believe you chose what your path in life will be before you reincarnate. But just like a real journey, you may know the destination, but not what will come your way.
Fluffy
A fool
I do not believe in predestination. However, the Bible has many passages in which it indicates that predestination is real which I can point you to if you like.
I do, however, believe in determinism which is effectively the same thing but without the need of some supernatural force controlling the direction of events.
I do, however, believe in determinism which is effectively the same thing but without the need of some supernatural force controlling the direction of events.
Scuba Pete
Le plongeur avec attitude...
Predestination can be seen on two levels. One of them I agree with.
The first (most common) level is of absolutism or proscription. IE God has made up our mind for us and there is nothing we can do about it. Unfortunately, this would make God responsible for sin and that just DOESN'T make any sense.
The second has to do with ordination. IE God has DESIGNED us to be his children. The final outcome of his design is NOT a forgone conclusion by any means.
Ephesians 1:3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. NIV
The first (most common) level is of absolutism or proscription. IE God has made up our mind for us and there is nothing we can do about it. Unfortunately, this would make God responsible for sin and that just DOESN'T make any sense.
The second has to do with ordination. IE God has DESIGNED us to be his children. The final outcome of his design is NOT a forgone conclusion by any means.
Ephesians 1:3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. NIV
Predestination, for me is an acceptable theory - if cat I believe in it.
Not the 'I am born with the whole of my life mapped out before me' type of predestination - because to me, that would make no sense.
I see a person's life much like a tree - birth occurs at the root of the tree, and we travel up the trunk; when we get to our first 'big choice' ie the first big branch of the tree, we have the free choice as to which way to go - both the paths are mapped out, but we have the choice - and so on and so forth, all the way.
The theory therefore accounts for individual choice, but with predestination 'built in' - which is why we make what we want of our lives.
Not the 'I am born with the whole of my life mapped out before me' type of predestination - because to me, that would make no sense.
I see a person's life much like a tree - birth occurs at the root of the tree, and we travel up the trunk; when we get to our first 'big choice' ie the first big branch of the tree, we have the free choice as to which way to go - both the paths are mapped out, but we have the choice - and so on and so forth, all the way.
The theory therefore accounts for individual choice, but with predestination 'built in' - which is why we make what we want of our lives.
James the Persian
Dreptcredincios Crestin
As far as I'm concerned predestination is dangerous, heretical nonsense based solely on an exaggeration of the theological excesses of a single Father (Bl. Augustine) and without a scrap of support in either Scripture, Holy Tradition or the Patristic consensus. You might say I'm opposed to it, therefore.
James
James
Ceridwen018
Well-Known Member
Lots of people oppose predestination, (as I did when I believed), because they just don't like the idea of it. No one likes to think that their whole life has already been decided for them because that takes away the idea of "free-will" and everyone likes to think that they're in control of themselves.
However, like those current people who oppose predestination, when I was a believer I found that I could come up with no better argument against predestination other than, "I don't like it", which is no argument at all.
Predestination is based on the idea that God is all-knowing, all-seeing, and all-powerful. If all those things are true, then God can obviously see into the future, am I right? If God can see into the future, then he can obviously know how your entire life will play out before you are even conceived, am I right?
Therefore, to clarify, predestination does not claim that you are not in control of your own life. With predestination, the idea of free-will can still exist. However, predestination means that God knows whether or not you will go to heaven or hell, as well as everything else about your life before you are even born. Basically, God isn't making your decisions for you, he simply knows which ones you will make and where they will lead.
In order for predestination to not be true, God can either not have the power to see into the future, or he chooses not to use it. However, if you want to talk about things which aren't in scripture, this would be a good place to start.
However, like those current people who oppose predestination, when I was a believer I found that I could come up with no better argument against predestination other than, "I don't like it", which is no argument at all.
Predestination is based on the idea that God is all-knowing, all-seeing, and all-powerful. If all those things are true, then God can obviously see into the future, am I right? If God can see into the future, then he can obviously know how your entire life will play out before you are even conceived, am I right?
Therefore, to clarify, predestination does not claim that you are not in control of your own life. With predestination, the idea of free-will can still exist. However, predestination means that God knows whether or not you will go to heaven or hell, as well as everything else about your life before you are even born. Basically, God isn't making your decisions for you, he simply knows which ones you will make and where they will lead.
In order for predestination to not be true, God can either not have the power to see into the future, or he chooses not to use it. However, if you want to talk about things which aren't in scripture, this would be a good place to start.
That's interesting, Ceridwen, because although I am not a 'proper' Christian - I'm not even sure what I am - I can be quite happy with predestination the way I described it, running alongside my other beliefs.
I am agree that G-d can 'obviously know how your entire life will play out before you are even conceived, am I right?' - but I have never imagined that he would actually do so - apart from being confident that we will ultimately be 'with him' at the end of our lives (because I also believe in reincarnation), but I can't see him 'being bothered' with the minutiae of our day to day life; perhaps I 'd better explain what I mean by example:-
I used to explain my Idea of the life of a soul by comparison with that of the life of an individual, in his own lifetime. When a baby is born, he is cared for by his mother until he is able to go to kindergarten, from which he will progress to increasingly demanding places of learning. At each stage of scholastic evaluation, he can either be promoted, or go through the same content again until he is deemed qualified to progress.
For the mothers of babies, read G-d of all Souls; for each year in school, read each incarnations on Earth (maybe elsewhere?). Using that same analogy, life as an adult in a field that he has chosen is the same for the soul who, by his own choice, commits himself to a particular task of self improvement. The last stage, at the end of all the lessons that are to be achieved lies the ultimate incarnation; I would propose those of Jesus Christ, Buddha....any example of a magnificent being in whatever religion. Basically they all have very much in common; they have all reached the same level of competence and are ready for 'the next step'. Whatever that is; we, with only the understanding of matter we can see can only begin to imagine what lies thereafter.
Maybe you will find some of that of interest - the main point of my bringing it in this topic is to show that, as far as I am concerned, G-d only sees you at the end of each 'school-term' - for want of a better description.........
I am agree that G-d can 'obviously know how your entire life will play out before you are even conceived, am I right?' - but I have never imagined that he would actually do so - apart from being confident that we will ultimately be 'with him' at the end of our lives (because I also believe in reincarnation), but I can't see him 'being bothered' with the minutiae of our day to day life; perhaps I 'd better explain what I mean by example:-
I used to explain my Idea of the life of a soul by comparison with that of the life of an individual, in his own lifetime. When a baby is born, he is cared for by his mother until he is able to go to kindergarten, from which he will progress to increasingly demanding places of learning. At each stage of scholastic evaluation, he can either be promoted, or go through the same content again until he is deemed qualified to progress.
For the mothers of babies, read G-d of all Souls; for each year in school, read each incarnations on Earth (maybe elsewhere?). Using that same analogy, life as an adult in a field that he has chosen is the same for the soul who, by his own choice, commits himself to a particular task of self improvement. The last stage, at the end of all the lessons that are to be achieved lies the ultimate incarnation; I would propose those of Jesus Christ, Buddha....any example of a magnificent being in whatever religion. Basically they all have very much in common; they have all reached the same level of competence and are ready for 'the next step'. Whatever that is; we, with only the understanding of matter we can see can only begin to imagine what lies thereafter.
Maybe you will find some of that of interest - the main point of my bringing it in this topic is to show that, as far as I am concerned, G-d only sees you at the end of each 'school-term' - for want of a better description.........
Prima
Well-Known Member
I'm having trouble putting what I think into words, so I apologize in advance if this is disorganized or impossible to understand. Or both.
Just because the present is what is real to us doesn't mean the future exists and has just as much reality as the present. Think about going through a stack of cards or papers. Just because the only one you see is the one in front of you doesn't mean the others don't exist at the same time that you are looking at the one on top - you just can't see them, and you don't know what they say.
Just so, the future already exists, we just haven't gotten to it yet. So, I don't think that someone is 'planning' your life, or that you are 'predestined' for anything, I just think that....oh crap, I give up. If someone actually understands what I'm saying and can explain it better, frubals to you
Just because the present is what is real to us doesn't mean the future exists and has just as much reality as the present. Think about going through a stack of cards or papers. Just because the only one you see is the one in front of you doesn't mean the others don't exist at the same time that you are looking at the one on top - you just can't see them, and you don't know what they say.
Just so, the future already exists, we just haven't gotten to it yet. So, I don't think that someone is 'planning' your life, or that you are 'predestined' for anything, I just think that....oh crap, I give up. If someone actually understands what I'm saying and can explain it better, frubals to you
Err yes. Now, let me get this right; you don't know what your'e saying, and you are hoping someone else will tell you........Prima said:I'm having trouble putting what I think into words, so I apologize in advance if this is disorganized or impossible to understand. Or both.
Just because the present is what is real to us doesn't mean the future exists and has just as much reality as the present. Think about going through a stack of cards or papers. Just because the only one you see is the one in front of you doesn't mean the others don't exist at the same time that you are looking at the one on top - you just can't see them, and you don't know what they say.
Just so, the future already exists, we just haven't gotten to it yet. So, I don't think that someone is 'planning' your life, or that you are 'predestined' for anything, I just think that....oh crap, I give up. If someone actually understands what I'm saying and can explain it better, frubals to you
I think maybe you are saying that all the possible permutations of the future are there for the choosing - much like a chess game (sorry to ditch your cards) - for each move you make, there appears another 'string' of possibilities.
Now you explain what I have said to you...........
Prima
Well-Known Member
Yes, kind of, but exactly not.
What I'm saying is that...okay, you have your strings of possibilities, correct? But actually, one of those exists, not all of them, because you will only choose one of them. Yes, they're all there for the choosing - or so it seems - but in all actuality only one exists: the one that you are choosing, will choose, or chose.
What I'm saying is that...okay, you have your strings of possibilities, correct? But actually, one of those exists, not all of them, because you will only choose one of them. Yes, they're all there for the choosing - or so it seems - but in all actuality only one exists: the one that you are choosing, will choose, or chose.
Well, I know what I'm thinking, I just don't know if what I'm saying and what I'm thinking match up very well
Ah, but surely they all have to exist so that you have the opportunity to pick any single one - if the one that you will choose is the only one, then there is no choice.Prima said:Yes, kind of, but exactly not.
What I'm saying is that...okay, you have your strings of possibilities, correct? But actually, one of those exists, not all of them, because you will only choose one of them. Yes, they're all there for the choosing - or so it seems - but in all actuality only one exists: the one that you are choosing, will choose, or chose.
Well, I know what I'm thinking, I just don't know if what I'm saying and what I'm thinking match up very well
True beliefs are not to be predetermined by feelings. Thought Analysis should not be similar to the all you can eat buffet line. Little rice, little beef, you're a chicken.
This is mystical thinking that leads back to your finite point of reference (yourself). Thus when this question was posed and answered, all I have seen are mystical answers that are circular.
Truth is not determined by your likes or dislikes. TRUTH IS!
To say otherwise is huge arrogance since you would think that you are the source for all truth and answers. - - -
The question should be, how do you know anything and what is knowledge? You must start at the letter A before you begin talking about ...xyz.
Viva
This is mystical thinking that leads back to your finite point of reference (yourself). Thus when this question was posed and answered, all I have seen are mystical answers that are circular.
Truth is not determined by your likes or dislikes. TRUTH IS!
To say otherwise is huge arrogance since you would think that you are the source for all truth and answers. - - -
The question should be, how do you know anything and what is knowledge? You must start at the letter A before you begin talking about ...xyz.
Viva
No, I am not stuck in the idea that the future doesn't exist yet. I believe that all possible futures exist, but that when you choose on option, the redundant ones become voided. But to each option in the future also exists a whole row of possible 'ofshoots'Prima said:No, because see, now you're stuck in the idea that the future doesn't exist yet. The future isn't what doesn't exist yet, it's what you haven't gotten to yet. You've already chosen.
You know what, I think I'm going to give communicating what's in my head for now
P.S Excuse poor diagram; I was never good at drawing......
jewscout
Religious Zionist
Viva, "Truth" is a matter of perception...and if you look at quantum physics it is possible for something to be A and B at the same timeViva said:
http://whatis.techtarget.com/definition/0,,sid9_gci341236,00.html
Truth is perception? This line was coined by Bishop Berkley.
And quantum physics is in turmoil now due to the theory of general relativity and quantum mechanics. There are 2 schools of thought on this that deny the other one's premises. So you're not correct.
The missing link is a desperate attempt that has failed for over 20 years (String Theory).
***Thus perhaps you should replace the chicken at your buffet table for bull since this seems to be your flavor of choice*** : )
Respectfully,
Viva
And quantum physics is in turmoil now due to the theory of general relativity and quantum mechanics. There are 2 schools of thought on this that deny the other one's premises. So you're not correct.
The missing link is a desperate attempt that has failed for over 20 years (String Theory).
***Thus perhaps you should replace the chicken at your buffet table for bull since this seems to be your flavor of choice*** : )
Respectfully,
Viva