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Died For Our Sins ?

Zhakir

Peace&Tolerance
Peace be unto you all :)
I have few questions about that subject.
1.Does the Bible say that jesus died for the sins of all humans ? If so, then does that include those who don't believe in Jesus (pbuh) as a messenger and atheists ? Though the Bible states that athiest and porn stars etc. will go to Hell .
2.Why do christian missonaries call there job as "saving souls" and "get people out of Hell torment to heaven" etc.,because if jesus (pbuh) died for all humans to let them enter heaven (Which we Muslims strongly disagree with).then why calling that as 'saving souls" as long as they are already saved ?.
 

Bloomdido

Member
Zhakir, I have just clicked on the link in your signature so that I could learn the truth.

Angels taking my soul when I fall asleep and giving it back to me when I wake up! The big bang didn't happen because cars can't evolve from a junkyard explosion and Darwin was wrong because a TV programme in 1998 said so.

Science Islam - Two words that don't really belong in the same sentence.
 

Breathe

Hostis humani generis
Zhakir, from what I recall, I'll offer my 2 cents about it, until an actual Christian can respond :)

1. the majority of Christians believe that Jesus died for all human beings - so long as they repent (otherwise they get no such luck) - many Protestants believe in "grace alone", so if the porn star was a Christian and earnestly wanted to stop, or a murderer, they could even go to Heaven if they repented (I don't know if they could continue and do this, but I feel as though such an easy one way ticket is bad for society and theologically not very good) - though quite a few Christians believe that we are saved by grace, one should also do good works (though there is no extra reward, also doesn't sound very good for society..)

2. So people repent and know of Jesus and stuff like that - it's kind of like having a bath or something, you have to "repent, believe and be saved" or something :)
 

T-Dawg

Self-appointed Lunatic
Science Islam - Two words that don't really belong in the same sentence.
Oh please, you westerners think you're so awesome... keep in mind that the Muslims were far more advanced than Europe for a large portion of history, and most of the things that Europeans are credited for inventing were invented first centuries before by Muslims...

And, eh, to answer the OP...
1.) I think, yes, that Jesus did die for the sins of all humans, but one has to acknowledge that he did to receive salvation. Otherwise it's like a present that you never open, or something like that.
2.) They are "saving souls" because they are informing the people about what Christ did for them. Unfortunately, ignorance of how to obtain salvation is not an excuse when it comes with God, as far as I know D=.
 

Zhakir

Peace&Tolerance
Zhakir, I have just clicked on the link in your signature so that I could learn the truth.

Angels taking my soul when I fall asleep and giving it back to me when I wake up! The big bang didn't happen because cars can't evolve from a junkyard explosion and Darwin was wrong because a TV programme in 1998 said so.

Science Islam - Two words that don't really belong in the same sentence.
Thank you Odion and TheAmazingLoser for respnding
Bloomdido,here is what the Quran says 39:42
It is Allah that takes the souls (of men) at death; and those that die not (He takes) during their sleep: those on whom He has passed thedecree of death, He keeps back (from returning to life), but the rest Hesends (to their bodies) for a term appointed verily in this are Signs forthose who reflect.
21:30
Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? Wemade from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?

You can't disprove that,and also can't convince us that people wrote 1400 years ago themselves.
 
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Zhakir

Peace&Tolerance
Zhakir, from what I recall, I'll offer my 2 cents about it, until an actual Christian can respond :)

1. the majority of Christians believe that Jesus died for all human beings - so long as they repent (otherwise they get no such luck) - many Protestants believe in "grace alone", so if the porn star was a Christian and earnestly wanted to stop, or a murderer, they could even go to Heaven if they repented (I don't know if they could continue and do this, but I feel as though such an easy one way ticket is bad for society and theologically not very good) - though quite a few Christians believe that we are saved by grace, one should also do good works (though there is no extra reward, also doesn't sound very good for society..)

2. So people repent and know of Jesus and stuff like that - it's kind of like having a bath or something, you have to "repent, believe and be saved" or something :)
Thank you.
"Salvation" - no doubt-is harmful to the society.So from this i understand that those who don't believe in Jesus (pbuh) and atheists will go to Hell. those who don't repent will go to Hell.that's a bright side.
But many christians seem to disagree and even believe not in hell
 

Zhakir

Peace&Tolerance
Oh please, you westerners think you're so awesome... keep in mind that the Muslims were far more advanced than Europe for a large portion of history, and most of the things that Europeans are credited for inventing were invented first centuries before by Muslims...

And, eh, to answer the OP...
1.) I think, yes, that Jesus did die for the sins of all humans, but one has to acknowledge that he did to receive salvation. Otherwise it's like a present that you never open, or something like that.
2.) They are "saving souls" because they are informing the people about what Christ did for them. Unfortunately, ignorance of how to obtain salvation is not an excuse when it comes with God, as far as I know D=.
Thank you
Cristians only then.One of the christians here in RF said that he doesn't even believe that I will go to Hell Looks like we have many ideologies of salvation,that leads us to my first
question.What does the Bible say about it ?(if it does say somthing about it) Or is it something made up.
 

Breathe

Hostis humani generis
Thank you.
"Salvation" - no doubt-is harmful to the society.So from this i understand that those who don't believe in Jesus (pbuh) and atheists will go to Hell. those who don't repent will go to Hell.that's a bright side.
But many christians seem to disagree and even believe not in hell
That's right, I believe it is ultimately harmful to a society to believe they can do whatever they like, repent and get a free ticket out, yet a person who has done good all their lives and was an atheist or Hindu or something will burn in hell.

I was one of the Christians who did not believe in Hell, I believed in annihilationism (that the dead will have their souls destroyed, and be dead forever).

There are, ultimately, 2 words used in the New Testament for hell - Gehennom (cognate to Arabic Jahannam) - this was a local rubbish tip where people threw their unwanted stuff, and Sheol ("the grave"). There are some other words used, such as "hades" (Greek translation of sheol).

I believed that the idea of a burning torturous hell comes from taking the term "Lake of Fire" literally. The "Lake of Fire" is found throughout the book of Revelation. However, Revelation 21:8 says, "But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death." - This is why I believed in annihiliationism.

Nowadays, the idea of hell is quite an uncomfortable thing, because Christians like to believe their God is merciful and loving, and often they struggle to reconcile it with God putting people in torture.
 

Zhakir

Peace&Tolerance
That's right, I believe it is ultimately harmful to a society to believe they can do whatever they like,
:yes: Untill this point,God and Muslims believe the same. But what do you think that those who do whatever they like should be punished or not ?
repent and get a free ticket out,
Actually I'm not sure that salvation exist in the Bible,but anyway we don't believe this book to be God's or has correct teachings.So i'll try to explain to you the correct concept of the creator-the Islamic concept.In Islam people's repentance can be accepted and can be rejected.so it's not "free ticket" at all times. Quran 4:17-18
Allah accept the repentance of those who do evil in ignorance and repent soon afterwards; to them will Allah turn in mercy: For Allah is fullof knowledge and wisdom.Of no effect is the repentance of those who continue to do evil, until death faces one of them, and he says, "Now have I repented in deed;" nor of those who die rejecting Faith: for them have We prepared a punishment most grievous.
.yet a person who has done good all their lives and was an atheist or Hindu or something will burn in hell
As a matter of fact they will not be burned i hell for doing good,it's because of rejecting faith.and the clear signs of God.
I was one of the Christians who did not believe in Hell, I believed in annihilationism (that the dead will have their souls destroyed, and be dead forever).
There are, ultimately, 2 words used in the New Testament for hell - Gehennom (cognate to Arabic Jahannam) - this was a local rubbish tip where people threw their unwanted stuff, and Sheol ("the grave"). There are some other words used, such as "hades" (Greek translation of sheol).

I believed that the idea of a burning torturous hell comes from taking the term "Lake of Fire" literally. The "Lake of Fire" is found throughout the book of Revelation. However, Revelation 21:8 says, "But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death." - This is why I believed in annihiliationism.

I don't see much difference between annihilationism and salvation except that sinners according to the first one will not go to heaven,because annihiliationism allowes people to do what they want as long as they will be punished.I'll explain to you the Muslim/God concept of hereafter:
Each and every human being desires justice. Even if he does not want justice for others he wants justice for himself. Some people are intoxicated by power and influence and inflict pain and suffering on others. The same people, however, would surely object if some injustice was done to them. The reason such people become insensitive to the suffering of others is that they worship power and influence. Power and influence, they feel, not only allows them to inflict injustice on others but also prevents others from doing likewise to them.

If you believe/d in God then shouldn't you ask yourself why God, if He is Powerful and Just, does not punish bad people ?
Every person who has suffered injustice, irrespective of financial or social status, almost certainly wants the perpetrator of injustice to be punished. Every normal person would like the robber or the rapist to be taught a lesson. Though a large number of criminals are punished, many even go scot-free. They lead a pleasant, luxurious life, and even enjoy a peaceful existence. If injustice is done to a powerful and influential person, by someone more powerful and more influential than he, even such a person would want that person perpetrators of injustice to be punished.




Nowadays, the idea of hell is quite an uncomfortable thing, because Christians like to believe their God is merciful and loving, and often they struggle to reconcile it with God putting people in torture
I believe that according to All-Just (swt) (Allah) and Qur'an,Muslims,you,the Bible Which believes in Hell,Police,judges,International Court of Justice and all those who are associated with justice in the world, this belief is totally wrong,and i wish these christians who like to believe this will understand that this hasn't to do with the Bible or common sense.
 
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Breathe

Hostis humani generis
:yes: Untill this point,God and Muslims believe the same. But what do you think that those who do whatever they like should be punished or not ?
Of course I do - it's only logical that those who do evil should be punished - but the punishment should fit the crime, and this is why I am not big on eternal punishment, and why I hold that if there is a "bad" afterlife, it's something like destruction still. I don't actually know what I believe about the wicked, because I don't like to think about that much. I have family who have passed on who have been good people but unbelievers for example, I don't want to think they could be somewhere in punishment.

Actually I'm not sure that salvation exist in the Bible,
Hmmm, salvation is a pretty big message of Jesus' within the Bible (whether or not he said "I am salvation" though is debatable, I don't believe a prophet of God would be so... egotistical to say he is salvation..)

but anyway we don't believe this book to be God's or has correct teachings.So i'll try to explain to you the correct concept of the creator-the Islamic concept.In Islam people's repentance can be accepted and can be rejected.so it's not "free ticket" at all times. Quran 4:17-18
Allah accept the repentance of those who do evil in ignorance and repent soon afterwards; to them will Allah turn in mercy: For Allah is fullof knowledge and wisdom.Of no effect is the repentance of those who continue to do evil, until death faces one of them, and he says, "Now have I repented in deed;" nor of those who die rejecting Faith: for them have We prepared a punishment most grievous.
Thank you for sharing this verse from the Qur'an; this is what I meant though - someone would suffer in hell for not believing. I struggle with accepting such a thing. I understand why within Islam God would reject those who falsely repent or continue to do evil. :)

As a matter of fact they will not be burned i hell for doing good,it's because of rejecting faith.and the clear signs of God.
This is similar to the Christian concept.

I don't see much difference between annihilationism and salvation except that sinners according to the first one will not go to heaven,because annihiliationism allowes people to do what they want as long as they will be punished.I'll explain to you the Muslim/God concept of hereafter:
Each and every human being desires justice. Even if he does not want justice for others he wants justice for himself. Some people are intoxicated by power and influence and inflict pain and suffering on others. The same people, however, would surely object if some injustice was done to them. The reason such people become insensitive to the suffering of others is that they worship power and influence. Power and influence, they feel, not only allows them to inflict injustice on others but also prevents others from doing likewise to them.
This is similar to the ideas I held as a Christian. :)

If you believe/d in God then shouldn't you ask yourself why God, if He is Powerful and Just, does not punish bad people ?
Every person who has suffered injustice, irrespective of financial or social status, almost certainly wants the perpetrator of injustice to be punished. Every normal person would like the robber or the rapist to be taught a lesson. Though a large number of criminals are punished, many even go scot-free. They lead a pleasant, luxurious life, and even enjoy a peaceful existence. If injustice is done to a powerful and influential person, by someone more powerful and more influential than he, even such a person would want that person perpetrators of injustice to be punished.
I believe in God - only one God. No brothers, sisters, parents, children. Although, this is a common misunderstanding - I don't want, nor accept, that the wicked people get off scott free - but I don't believe in eternal punishment.


I believe that according to All-Just (swt) (Allah) and Qur'an,Muslims,you,the Bible Which believes in Hell,Police,judges,International Court of Justice and all those who are associated with justice in the world, this belief is totally wrong,and i wish these christians who like to believe this will understand that this hasn't to do with the Bible or common sense.
Hmmm, sorry, I don't quite understand what you mean here. :)

I think though, this is a bit off-topic. Perhaps it would be best to PM me? :)
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Thank you
Cristians only then.One of the christians here in RF said that he doesn't even believe that I will go to Hell Looks like we have many ideologies of salvation,that leads us to my first
question.What does the Bible say about it ?(if it does say somthing about it) Or is it something made up.
The Bible presents many takes, because the Bible is a polyvalent document.
 

Zhakir

Peace&Tolerance
Of course I do - it's only logical that those who do evil should be punished - but the punishment should fit the crime, and this is why I am not big on eternal punishment, and why I hold that if there is a "bad" afterlife, it's something like destruction still. I don't actually know what I believe about the wicked, because I don't like to think about that much. I have family who have passed on who have been good people but unbelievers for example, I don't want to think they could be somewhere in punishment.
I believe in God - only one God. No brothers, sisters, parents, children. Although, this is a common misunderstanding - I don't want, nor accept, that the wicked people get off scott free - but I don't believe in eternal punishment.
Thank you for sharing this verse from the Qur'an; this is what I meant though - someone would suffer in hell for not believing. I struggle with accepting such a thing. I understand why within Islam God would reject those who falsely repent or continue to do evil.
Good, now i understand how far you agree with the punishment logic.and i'm sure that your beliefs are very close to Islam's (Acts of God and nature of God) :yes:.I hope i can explain -what you disagree with-why the punishment should be as Islam says it will be,and why Non-believers (faith rejecters) should be punished .

I'm not a Muslim, but can I share a story?

With one of my friends who was also a seeker, in the place I am right now - during a discussion we had she told me what she believed and I told her that her beliefs are close to Islam's. She was shocked, and after I got rid of a few myths, she began to read the Qur'an online. If she had a question she'd initially come to me, and I'd search on one of the online Islamic databases for it.

She took the Shahada 3 months later and is now a fully practicing Muslimah, who wears a square hijab and everything. Now, she bugs her sheikh with them.

Some of her friends were angry with me, and asked me "Why did you send her to Islam?! You're not even Muslim! Why do you side with "them"?!" - I told them I didn't (God did*) and it's not about sides; if I could help just one person in life find inner peace I would be content, and her happiness and inner peace is more important than their prejudice, and if she did not want to do it, she would have not taken the shahada and began going to mosque.

Needless to say, they weren't impressed, but she's happy, and that's all that matters. :)

EDIT: * But I never said that, because they would just stare at me blankly and think I was insane. :D
Undoubtfully your beliefs too friend.
BTW..I'm sure that our new Muslim sister will never forget what you did,Allah guieded her with your hands :).

Hmmm, salvation is a pretty big message of Jesus' within the Bible (whether or not he said "I am salvation" though is debatable, I don't believe a prophet of God would be so... egotistical to say he is salvation..)
My first question to the christians was: What does the Bible say about jesus dying for our sins ? since no one answerd i said: "I'm not sure salvation exist in the Bible"
But most important we both believe that a prophet of God would be so... egotistical to say he is salvation nor God would ask a prophet to say so.



This is similar to the Christian concept.


This is similar to the ideas I held as a Christian. :)
But don't think that you as christian were -a bit- unjust as though a large number of criminals are punished, many even go scot-free. They lead a pleasant, luxurious life, and even enjoy a peaceful existence,So let's take Adolf Hitler who killed 6 Million jews for example,
If we agree that annihilationism's logic is the right,and Hitler's punishment should only be distruction though he took lives of people (who will never live again as we agree that there is no hereafter),then it will would be unfair to distroy him once though he distroyed 6 Millions and took thier lives.
I know that Adolf Hittler believed in salvation as a christian,but he will know how wrong was that, Adolf hittler will burn in Hell but not once..Because
Allah is never unjust in the least degree [Quran 4:40]
4:56 says
Those who reject our Signs, We shall soon cast into the Fire: as often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for freshskins, that they may taste the penalty: for Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.

Hmmm, sorry, I don't quite understand what you mean here. :)

I think though, this is a bit off-topic. Perhaps it would be best to PM me? :)
I meant that according all the mentioned thr "one may do awhatever evil he wants"ideology is wrong,as they mentioned ( Allah and Qur'an,Muslims,you,the Bible Which believes in Hell,Police,judges,International Court of Justice and all those who are associated with justice in the world) seek or wish to\do aprove justice in the world.
And i called christians who like to believe this will understand that this hasn't to do with the Bible or common sense.
Now to explain why punsihment should be eternal for faith rejecters,it would be important to know why are we here,you believe in God i think i should know first why do think God created us ? :)
 
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Heneni

Miss Independent
Hi there. I appologise for the length of the post.The topic will require many many moons of explanation, not that its complicated but because it is actually very simple. Does that make sense.? I guess not. LOL. We are off to a great start then. Since you are a muslim and not a jew, i will not bring the law into the matter.

Its times like this i wish i knew the quaran better. :help:

Anyway, i only have the bible as my guide in this matter so, if you are willing that i post scripture to explain it further i will do so if you have questions after this post.

I think that we have to start at the beginning. (i understand that you will not agree with everything in the bible, but im hoping you will at least understand why jesus died for our sins in the end, even if you dont agree with it)

Lets start at the beginning. Its always a good place to start. Adam and Eve, bless them, sinned. And the result was that they would die.

The bible says that the 'wages of sin is death'. So if you sin, you are working for something, you are working for a reward, sinning isnt pie in the sky by and by, its done for a reward. Just like not sinning has its reward, sinning has a reward. The reward for sin, is death. Now, all men the bible says have sinned and therefore all recieve their reward for it. Death. No after life in a different place other than earth after death.

So if you sin you die. Fair and square. Death is not sins punishment its the wages for it. A man works for wages he doesnt get punished for his work, he gets something for it. So to sin, you do it for a reward, and the reward is death. Now its not like people deliberately sin to die, but its not like they can escape it either. We only need to find the oldest history book we can find, and try to locate one evil man who has not died. Wont find it anywhere. Its obvious, you sin you die. The poor the rich the miserable, the happy, nobody escapes death. Nobody until jesus. (not talking about people who went to heaven without dying like enoch - enoch didnt escape death, he didnt die). To escape death in the real sense of the word, you need to die, and undie, then you can say you have escaped death. To escape means you had to be a prisoner first. So to escape death you would have had to die first.

Anyway....so all gentiles sinned, all gentiles died. No afterlife in a better place then earth. This planet is where all men die, and their bodies are buried here which means this earth in its entirety is like a grave. And hell is gahenna which means grave. Earth is hell. The lake of fire isnt.

But to not distract from the OP question, lets skip over the part of earth being hell and move on to why jesus had to die.

You might be familiar with the scripture in the bible that says, ''all men will die for their own sins''. So if jesus died for our sins, thats cheating! Unless it is not.

Let me explain. If you are going to die by yourself, there was no way for you to escape it, number one, and there was no happy afterlife number two.

So...god made a plan. If you died with jesus, who had never sinned, and therefore was not legally required to die, perhaps you would be resurrected with him when he escaped death. And that is exactly what happened. But jesus who never sinned could not taste death unless he had sin. So the sin of the whole world, was imputed into jesus's blood so that his body would die. Otherwise it never would have! So with the sin of the whole world on jesus, he could taste of death. Now what if God by his infinite wisdom decided to make you die with jesus? Your wages after all is death. So if you died with jesus (your spirit), your sin imputed into his body, his body sacrificed for it on the alter, your spirit attached to him, you would then be rid of your sin, because it was taken upon him, and if you died with him, and he resurrected then you would be resurrected with him. Therefore you would have escaped death.

So that is what happened. We died with christ. Our sins were imputed into his body. His body was sacrificed with all our sin in it. Therefore he took our sins away, and our spirits placed IN christ on the cross, so that he, having no sin of his own, would rise from the dead, and so would you!

So Jesus said to the thief on the cross...''today you will see me paradise''. Paradise is not where god is, but it is where your resurrected spirit in your now body comes from when you are born onto this planet. So if jesus did not rise from the dead, every gentile's spirit that was placed in him, would have been lost forever.

Now....how do you know if you were placed IN the spirit of christ? You had to put your faith in him to save you. EVERYBODY's sin was placed on jesus's body, by imputing the sin into his blood, but not every spirit was placed in his spirit and subsequently resurrected to new life. Those who were placed IN christ jesus were the people, nation, and tribes who put their faith in him to save them. So the bible says, all who have been apointed to salvation WILL believe in this life time. Because they placed their trust in jesus to save them on the cross. Now the jews, you might recall did not put their trust in him to save them, a remnant did but the majority did not, so they did not die with jesus and so therefore the bible says, their 'branches' had been cut off. When the branch is cut off, its not in the tree anymore and therfore the fate of the tree and the branches are seperated. So when jesus died and rose from the dead, the majority of jews were not grafted into the tree so that when it came back to life, the branches that were cut off could not be brought back to life either.

However, we also know that the bible says, that god is able to graft any branch of the jews back into the tree. Thank God!

What about the muslims. Well i think god has a plan for the muslims as well. Though i have to honestly tell you that at this moment if I consider the muslims to be gentiles, then the only hope i can see there, is that they must have put their faith in jesus to save them on the cross to have any hope of eternal life and not eternal death.

But i dont think that god is the kind of god that is defeated! And so im the optimist. I have hope that all people will eventualy return to god, but it might mean having to go to the lake of fire first.

Ok i have said a lot, perhaps too much to grasp all in one go. Perhaps i lost you in the second line already. I dont wish to offend any muslim on this board. It would be nice to know how you see jesus fitting into your religion as well.

Anway, maybe i have cleared things up, hopefully i havent muddied it all up.
 

T-Dawg

Self-appointed Lunatic
Wow, it seems like every Christian other than me is an excellent speaker... well said, Heneni =).
 

Zhakir

Peace&Tolerance
Thank you Heneni for your reply
Lets start at the beginning. Its always a good place to start. Adam and Eve, bless them, sinned. And the result was that they would die.

The bible says that the 'wages of sin is death'.
Actually they lived a long life to have many children.The Bible talks about Hell fire for sinners and its eternal punishment,everyone dies.
So if you sin, you are working for something, you are working for a reward, sinning isnt pie in the sky by and by, its done for a reward. Just like not sinning has its reward, sinning has a reward. The reward for sin, is death. Now, all men the bible says have sinned and therefore all recieve their reward for it. Death. No after life in a different place other than earth after death.
So if you sin you die. Fair and square. Death is not sins punishment its the wages for it. A man works for wages he doesnt get punished for his work, he gets something for it. So to sin, you do it for a reward, and the reward is death. Now its not like people deliberately sin to die, but its not like they can escape it either. We only need to find the oldest history book we can find, and try to locate one evil man who has not died. Wont find it anywhere. Its obvious, you sin you die. The poor the rich the miserable, the happy, nobody escapes death. Nobody until jesus. (not talking about people who went to heaven without dying like enoch - enoch didnt escape death, he didnt die). To escape death in the real sense of the word, you need to die, and undie, then you can say you have escaped death. To escape means you had to be a prisoner first. So to escape death you would have had to die first.
Anyway....so all gentiles sinned, all gentiles died. No afterlife in a better place then earth. This planet is where all men die, and their bodies are buried here which means this earth in its entirety is like a grave. And hell is gahenna which means grave. Earth is hell. The lake of fire isnt.
But to not distract from the OP question, lets skip over the part of earth being hell and move on to why jesus had to die.
That doesn't sound fair and contradicts with the Bible that speaks about a lake of fire (gahenna is hebrew word that means Hell), all people die but they are different in their deeds,they can't have the same reward death.
You might be familiar with the scripture in the bible that says, ''all men will die for their own sins''. So if jesus died for our sins, thats cheating! Unless it is not.

Let me explain. If you are going to die by yourself, there was no way for you to escape it, number one, and there was no happy afterlife number two.
Why is that ?If i believe and do good deeds there is a happy afterlife for me Both Quran and Bible agree.
So...god made a plan. If you died with jesus, who had never sinned, and therefore was not legally required to die, perhaps you would be resurrected with him when he escaped death. And that is exactly what happened. But jesus who never sinned could not taste death unless he had sin. So the sin of the whole world, was imputed into jesus's blood so that his body would die. Otherwise it never would have! So with the sin of the whole world on jesus, he could taste of death. Now what if God by his infinite wisdom decided to make you die with jesus? Your wages after all is death. So if you died with jesus (your spirit), your sin imputed into his body, his body sacrificed for it on the alter, your spirit attached to him, you would then be rid of your sin, because it was taken upon him, and if you died with him, and he resurrected then you would be resurrected with him. Therefore you would have escaped death.

So that is what happened. We died with christ. Our sins were imputed into his body. His body was sacrificed with all our sin in it. Therefore he took our sins away, and our spirits placed IN christ on the cross, so that he, having no sin of his own, would rise from the dead, and so would you!

So Jesus said to the thief on the cross...''today you will see me paradise''. Paradise is not where god is, but it is where your resurrected spirit in your now body comes from when you are born onto this planet. So if jesus did not rise from the dead, every gentile's spirit that was placed in him, would have been lost forever.

Now....how do you know if you were placed IN the spirit of christ? You had to put your faith in him to save you. EVERYBODY's sin was placed on jesus's body, by imputing the sin into his blood, but not every spirit was placed in his spirit and subsequently resurrected to new life. Those who were placed IN christ jesus were the people, nation, and tribes who put their faith in him to save them. So the bible says, all who have been apointed to salvation WILL believe in this life time. Because they placed their trust in jesus to save them on the cross. Now the jews, you might recall did not put their trust in him to save them, a remnant did but the majority did not, so they did not die with jesus and so therefore the bible says, their 'branches' had been cut off. When the branch is cut off, its not in the tree anymore and therfore the fate of the tree and the branches are seperated. So when jesus died and rose from the dead, the majority of jews were not grafted into the tree so that when it came back to life, the branches that were cut off could not be brought back to life either.

However, we also know that the bible says, that god is able to graft any branch of the jews back into the tree. Thank God!
Sorry this argument has no basis,2 reasons
1.The bible didn't say that
2.Jesus sinned (according to the Bible),it's wrong to claim that he didn't.
Mark 2:18-20 Jesus went against God’s rules on fasting.
Matthew 5:32 Jesus went against God’s rules on divorce.
Matthew 11:19 Jesus came eating and drinking. They said: Look, He is a glutton and a drunkard...
John 5:8-11 & Luke 13:10-16 Jesus went against God’s rules concerning the Sabbath.
Revelation 2:23 Jesus (The Son of Man) said: I will also kill her children...
John 8:4-11 Jesus went against God’s rules on adultery.

What about the muslims. Well i think god has a plan for the muslims as well. Though i have to honestly tell you that at this moment if I consider the muslims to be gentiles, then the only hope i can see there, is that they must have put their faith in jesus to save them on the cross to have any hope of eternal life and not eternal death.
You should have considered many things before saying that. We Muslims believe jesus to be a prophet to the children of isreal for that time,as the Quran and the Bible say.
Once, when Jesus sent his disciples out, he advised them, "Do not go among the Gentiles, or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel" (Matthew 10:5-6). In another place we find Jesus said to a woman of Canaan, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel" (Matthew 15:24).
No one to let us go anywhere in the hereafter except Allah (swt) the only one God.and Messangers are to give us Allah's words and commands and to show us the right path.
 
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DavyCrocket2003

Well-Known Member
Zhakir, It is good to see you learning about the beliefs of others. It is good for us all to do this. That is why I am reading the Qur'an right now. Too bad I don't understand Arabic so I could read it in Arabic. I have a question Zhakir. Do not Christians, Muslims, and Jews all worship the same God? We may have differing beliefs, but at least we worship the same God don't we?

As to your questions about our beliefs concerning Jesus Christ and his atonement, I will add my two bits. Before came to this earth, we lived with God in a spirit state. We learned and progressed as much as we could. Eventually, it became expedient for us to take the next step in our journey. In order to become more like God, we would need to gain a body and experience mortality. We would need to be tested to see if we would follow what God had taught us and whether we would obey him or not. This plan involved coming to earth, living for a time, and then dieing. We would learn knowledge and gain experience that could be gained in no other way. We would also receive a physical body. It was a good plan, but there was a problem. We knew that God was perfectly good. There could be no evil in his presence. If any of us made a mistake on earth, we would be tainted with sin and be unable to return to God's presence for "no unclean thing can dwell in the presence of God." Because none of us could hope to live perfect lives, our trip to earth would have been a one way ticket. We could never have regained God's presence. Yet we needed the experience and growth living on earth would give us if we were to move forward in our progression. What would we do? God, gathered us all together and explained his plan to us. He made it known that there was one way to make the plan work. We would have to have a redeemer, someone willing to pay the sins of us all. It would have to be someone perfect, a lamb without blemish. Realizing that no one else could fulfill the requirements, Jesus Christ, our older brother, offered himself. When God asked "Whom shall I send?" He answered "Send me, and the glory be thine forever." I cannot imagine a love like that. He never faltered from his decision. When it finally came time for the price to be paid, the burden began to be so heavy that he prayed to his Father "Father, if it be possible, remove this cup from me!" What a great burden it must have been! "Nevertheless, not my will, but thine be done."

Later, when describing the experience Jesus Christ explained it thus:
Therefore I command you to repent—repent, lest... your sufferings be sore—how sore you know not, how exquisite you know not, yea, how hard to bear you know not. For behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; But if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; Which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit—and would that I might not drink the bitter cup, and shrink— Nevertheless, glory be to the Father, and I partook and finished my preparations unto the children of men.
 

Zhakir

Peace&Tolerance
Zhakir, It is good to see you learning about the beliefs of others. It is good for us all to do this. That is why I am reading the Qur'an right now. Too bad I don't understand Arabic so I could read it in Arabic. I have a question Zhakir. Do not Christians, Muslims, and Jews all worship the same God? We may have differing beliefs, but at least we worship the same God don't we?
You may read the Qur'an in the language you understand the best.
And yes Muslims and the people of the book (christians and jews) worship the same Allah they only one God.
29:46
And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, except with means better (than mere disputation), unless it be with those of them whoinflict wrong (and injury): but say, "We believe in the revelation whichhas come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our Allah and your Allah is one; and it is to Him we bow (in Islam)."
3:64
Say: "O People of the Book! come to common terms as between us and you: That we worship none but Allah; that we associate no partners with him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other than Allah." If then they turn back, say ye: "Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to Allah's Will).


As to your questions about our beliefs concerning Jesus Christ and his atonement, I will add my two bits. Before came to this earth, we lived with God in a spirit state. We learned and progressed as much as we could. Eventually, it became expedient for us to take the next step in our journey. In order to become more like God, we would need to gain a body and experience mortality. We would need to be tested to see if we would follow what God had taught us and whether we would obey him or not. This plan involved coming to earth, living for a time, and then dieing. We would learn knowledge and gain experience that could be gained in no other way. We would also receive a physical body. It was a good plan, but there was a problem. We knew that God was perfectly good. There could be no evil in his presence. If any of us made a mistake on earth, we would be tainted with sin and be unable to return to God's presence for "no unclean thing can dwell in the presence of God." Because none of us could hope to live perfect lives, our trip to earth would have been a one way ticket. We could never have regained God's presence. Yet we needed the experience and growth living on earth would give us if we were to move forward in our progression. What would we do? God, gathered us all together and explained his plan to us. He made it known that there was one way to make the plan work. We would have to have a redeemer, someone willing to pay the sins of us all. It would have to be someone perfect, a lamb without blemish. Realizing that no one else could fulfill the requirements, Jesus Christ, our older brother, offered himself. When God asked "Whom shall I send?" He answered "Send me, and the glory be thine forever." I cannot imagine a love like that. He never faltered from his decision. When it finally came time for the price to be paid, the burden began to be so heavy that he prayed to his Father "Father, if it be possible, remove this cup from me!" What a great burden it must have been! "Nevertheless, not my will, but thine be done."

Later, when describing the experience Jesus Christ explained it thus:
Thank you for replying
Muslims agree that life is a test from God who has a plan for us to live according to,
We believe that God is good and the most Mercyful.
1. Allah is most Merciful
The Qur’an says several times that Allah is the most Merciful. In fact all the 114 Surahs i.e. chapters of the Glorious Qur’an except for Surah Taubah chapter 9, begin with the beautiful formula, Bismillah-hir-Rahman-nir-Rahim, which means, "In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful".
2. Allah is Forgiving
The Glorious Qur’an mentions in several verses including Surah Nisa, chapter 4 verse 25 and Surah Maidah, chapter 5 verse 74:
"And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."
3. Allah gives severe punishment to the deserving
Allah besides being Merciful and Forgiving is also strict in giving punishment to the deserving. The Qur’an mentions in several verses that Allah will give severe punishment to the unbelievers and rejecters of faith. He will give punishment to all those who disobey Him. Several verses of the Qur’an describe the various types of severe punishment that Allah will give in hell to all those who disobey.
"Those who reject our Signs, we shall soon cast into the Fire; as often as their skins
Are roasted through, we shall change them for fresh skins, that they may taste the penalty: for Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise".
[Al-Qur’an 4:56]
4. Allah is Just
The question is, whether Allah is forgiving or revengeful? An important point to be noted is that Allah besides being Merciful and Forgiving, He also has to give severe punishment to the deserving wicked or evil people, because He is also Just. The Qur’an mentions in Surah Nisa: "Allah is never unjust in the least degree".
[Al-Qur’an 4:40]
It is further mentioned in Surah Al-Ambiya:
"We shall set up scales of justice for the day of Judgement, so that not a soul will be dealt with unjustly in the least. And if there be (no more than) the weight of a mustard seed, we will bring it (to account): and enough are we to take account".
[Al-Qur’an 21:47]
would it be fair to reward different people who do different deeds the same ?
Now if people believe that their sins will be forgiven,what will stop them from sinnig ?
5. Example: Teacher forgives a student who copies in the examination
If during an examination, a student copies and the teacher who supervises in the examination catches the student red-handed, the teacher says that he is very merciful and kind and forgives him and allows him to continue copying. Those students who have worked hard for the examination will not call the teacher merciful and kind but will call him unjust. This merciful act of the teacher will encourage the other students to also copy. If all the teachers are merciful and kind and allow the students to copy then no student will ever study for examinations and all will pass with flying colours by copying. The theoretical results of the examinations will be excellent in which all the students will pass with first class and distinction but practically these students will be a failure in life. The whole purpose of the examination would be defeated.
6. This Life is a Test for the Hereafter
The life in this world is a test for the Hereafter. The Qur’an says in Surah Al Mulk: "He who created Death and Life, that He may try which of you is best in deed; and He is the Exalted in Might, Oft-Forgiving".
[Al-Qur’an 67:2]
7. If Allah forgives all and punishes none, who will obey him?
If Allah (swt) forgives each and every human being and punishes no one, then why should the human beings obey the command of Allah (swt) ? If we do agree that no one will go to hell, but this world would become hell to live in. If all human beings are going to go to heaven then what is the purpose and use of the human beings to come to this world, this life cannot be called a test for the hereafter.
8. Allah only forgives if a person repents
Allah (swt) only forgives if a person repents. The Qur’an says in Surah Al-Zumar, chapter 39 verse 53-55:
"Say: ‘O my servants who have transgressed against their souls! Despair not of the Mercy of Allah: for Allah forgives all sins for He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."
"Turn ye to your Lord (in repentance) and bow to His (will), before the penalty comes on you - after that ye shall not be helped."
"And follow the best of (the courses) revealed to you from your Lord, before the penalty comes on you - of a sudden, while ye perceive not!"
[Al-Qur’an 39:53-55]
There are four criteria for repentance: First, agree that the act is wrong. Secondly, stop it immediately. Thirdly, never do it again in future. And lastly, compensate for the loss if caused to anyone.
 
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Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Zhakir, I have just clicked on the link in your signature so that I could learn the truth.

Angels taking my soul when I fall asleep and giving it back to me when I wake up! The big bang didn't happen because cars can't evolve from a junkyard explosion and Darwin was wrong because a TV programme in 1998 said so.

Science Islam - Two words that don't really belong in the same sentence.
As if it really matters. Can you read, Bloomdido? You're on the Christianity forum. Your statement has absolutely nothing to do with the OP.
 

Katzpur

Not your average Mormon
Peace be unto you all :)
I have few questions about that subject.
1.Does the Bible say that jesus died for the sins of all humans ?
Yes.

If so, then does that include those who don't believe in Jesus (pbuh) as a messenger and atheists ?
Yes, to the extent that through Him all will be resurrected and most will actually go to Heaven. (The truth is a bit more involved than my answer implies, but very few people will end up in Hell. My religion teaches that Heaven is big enough for all of us.)

Though the Bible states that athiest and porn stars etc. will go to Hell .
I'm not aware of any references in the Bible to porn stars. With respect to atheists, the hell they will find themselves in after death need not be permanent.

2.Why do christian missonaries call there job as "saving souls" and "get people out of Hell torment to heaven" etc.,because if jesus (pbuh) died for all humans to let them enter heaven (Which we Muslims strongly disagree with).then why calling that as 'saving souls" as long as they are already saved ?.
I wouldn't know about that. I don't believe I am capable of saving anybody's soul. I am capable, however, of sharing the good news of Christ's restored gospel and giving people the opportunity to accept it if they wish.
 
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