The sick concept of Eternal hell suffering.

Diederick said:

How do you know this? Isn't it God that sends people, or at least condemns them (which is basically the same thing), to hell? And what about Purgatory? Where does that fit in?

God is not fair. He is selfish, ignorant, violent and has a short temper. And he certainly has no sense of ethics. Consider how temporal trespassing could possibly justify ETERNAL SUFFERING!? And eternity is a very long time.:sarcastic

And this is just you turning a negative into a positive. It doesn't work that way. If you sin, according to God, the response to that action is hell (or "death" as you call it). Since God invented and controls this entire world, he also controls this system of judgement. Either call it punishment or reward, it is still a reaction to an action, sanctioned by God.
:bow: Praise him, for rewarding us all with disease, deformation, collapsing solar systems, natural disasters, war, criminality, retardation and stupidity. Thank you SO MUCH, GOD.

If you rid yourself from the delusion that is this "God" you keep talking about, your punishment will be freedom. (See how this works?)
You can "trust" all you want, in Flying Teapots that justify stupidity and think it is righteous to spit at the statue of Liberty; but it won't do you much good. Certainly not as much good as not trusting in Flying Teapots would. And if you stop trusting the Teapot, your punishment is freedom, and it is JUST to give it. :areyoucra
Really, that good ol' Jesus, meek and mild, invented Hell is bad enough for Christianity; but that some Christians even find the guts to defend it, blows my mind.

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Jesus did not invent hell and God is not punishing us in any way; it is rather our animal drives - dominance, territoriality, and sex - that are causing much of the suffering. Hell is what the human animal has turned the planet into: a dog-eat-dog world. Jesus taught and lived a God of truth, love, forgiveness, and righteousness; he never used the word hell or used it as a threat in his teachings.

sandor606 said:

Jesus did not invent hell and God is not punishing us in any way; it is rather our animal drives - dominance, territoriality, and sex - that are causing much of the suffering. Hell is what the human animal has turned the planet into: a dog-eat-dog world. Jesus taught and lived a God of truth, love, forgiveness, and righteousness; he never used the word hell or used it as a threat in his teachings.

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Then how come Hell is not mentioned until the NT?

And again, how is it "righteous" to punish (or reward) with eternal punishment for what temporal missteps were made?

Hell is the public invention of a self righteous mind. A mind that says; look, either you be as righteous as me, or God is going to place you in an eternal pit of torment that Jesus blood has not reached. Its a horrible twisting of scripture that comes from a twisted mind.

Jesus once said in Matt. 24:21 that the great tribulation was going to be a time of suffering such has never before occurred in human history, and a time of suffering like this will never occur again. He complettely ruled out the possibility of eternal suffering right there, but hell hounds cannot see this. Any mind with common sense will know that if a people must suffer every second, every minute, every hour, while being conscious, and this must last for not just 1000, not just 1,000,000, not just 22 trillion years, but for all of eternity, that would be a greater thing than this tribulation that Jesus claimed would be the greatest human suffering ever, and it will NEVER happen again.

This prophecy of Jesus cancels out eternal hell suffering just as clear as day,but your mind has to be spiritually free from the bondage of hell in order to see this prophecy. This is why hell mongers cannot see it. They don't want to see it, they don't want to put out the flames of pain and misery, they NEED this event to validate their righteousness.

Peace.

Diederick said:

Then how come Hell is not mentioned until the NT?

And again, how is it "righteous" to punish (or reward) with eternal punishment for what temporal missteps were made?

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I am not aware that in the NT Jesus said that hell is the place where sinners go after death or that the righteous would sit in judgement of their fellow mortals. Where these ideas come from I don't know but they are not his.

mickiel said:

Hell is the public invention of a self righteous mind. A mind that says; look, either you be as righteous as me, or God is going to place you in an eternal pit of torment that Jesus blood has not reached. Its a horrible twisting of scripture that comes from a twisted mind.

Jesus once said in Matt. 24:21 that the great tribulation was going to be a time of suffering such has never before occurred in human history, and a time of suffering like this will never occur again. He complettely ruled out the possibility of eternal suffering right there, but hell hounds cannot see this. Any mind with common sense will know that if a people must suffer every second, every minute, every hour, while being conscious, and this must last for not just 1000, not just 1,000,000, not just 22 trillion years, but for all of eternity, that would be a greater thing than this tribulation that Jesus claimed would be the greatest human suffering ever, and it will NEVER happen again.

This prophecy of Jesus cancels out eternal hell suffering just as clear as day,but your mind has to be spiritually free from the bondage of hell in order to see this prophecy. This is why hell mongers cannot see it. They don't want to see it, they don't want to put out the flames of pain and misery, they NEED this event to validate their righteousness.

Peace.

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Religion is a part of the pathology of this hell doctrine. Hell is men trying to dispose of other men who don't measure up to " Their View" of God. Religion is mans effort to legitimize this mass punishing.

Peace.

The eternal hell punishing concept is a Merciless concept, those who believe in it are being merciless, and believe God himself to be merciless. They think Gods Judgement is merciless, so their belief system is merciless. In James 2:13;" For judgement will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy. Mercy Triumphs over Judgement", yet another biblical principle that cancels out eternal hell punishing.

Ironically, just as the Acient Romans were merciless in their sacrificing the early believers in God in the arena's, fed them to the lions, the christians of this day are feeding unbelievers to their arena of hell, far worse than lions. An insane irony, they worship every sunday as their ministers proudly proclaim this hell from their pulpits. And toss the sinners into their own cronic coloseum.

Peace.

sandor606 said:

Jesus taught and lived a God of truth, love, forgiveness, and righteousness; he never used the word hell or used it as a threat in his teachings.

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Except when he did (e.g the really long and detailed "Sheep and the Goats" passage in Matthew 25).

slave2six said:

Except when he did (e.g the really long and detailed "Sheep and the Goats" passage in Matthew 25).

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The symbolism in the bible always depicts goats as being demons, not humans. The seperation of sheep and goats in Matt. 25:32, I think are humans being seperated from demons. In vs. 41, it plainly states that eternal fire was " Prepared for the devil and his Angels", not for humans. But certain believers in God who are hell-longers, want the lake to be prepared for humans. It was not created for humans, not designed for humans, its only coveted by bloodthristy believers in God who want to see unbelievers feel the brunt of what is meant for demons. Thats because these violent believers treat unbelievers as if they were demons.

Peace.

Peace.

mickiel said:

God is not sick, man is.

Peace.

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Precicely. So how do you imagine god can make people understand that THEY are sick not him? By allowing everybody into heaven? Heaven is the home of gods children. A sick concept to me, would be a father that allows wolves to share the home of his children.

God does things in certain seasons. Right now the jews are not under mercy. But when Jesus returns he shall unite the jews and bring them back into the fold. He will graft them back in. Only a remnant of the jews are under grace now. The gentiles are under grace as well, yet we know that most people will be in the lake of fire, which means, only a remnant of the gentiles will be saved as well. Broad is the path that leads to destruction. God desires to destroy evil not people. To destroy evil, God will take away the power of people and satan to do evil in the lake of fire. When you are stuck with an evil heart and no way to do evil, the result will be weeping and grinding of teeth.

I am an optimist and believe that in due time all shall return to god, and indeed all will bow down and say that Jesus christ is lord. That will not happen by God using force, but rather because the being understands that God is wise in all he does, deserves all honour and glory, and is indeed worthy of our obedience because god is good.

The bible does not go into much detail about the fate of those in the lake of fire, but i know this, that unless paul knew that there would come a time when he would be saved by god even if he cut himself off, he never would have said this:

Romans 9:1

91I speak the truth in Christ--I am not lying, my conscience confirms it in the Holy Spirit-- 2I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3For I could wish that I myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, those of my own race,

Read that carefully. Paul says this with a clear conscience, confirmed by the HS, therefore he cannot lie when he said the above. He WISHES that he would be cursed and CUT OFF from CHRIST for the sake of his brothers. That is a very dangerous statement to make unless you knew there was a way to return to god.

Now paul knew that the jews would be grafted back in so he knew that there was a time when the curse would be lifted from him if he cut himself off.

The demons when they were confronted with Jesus would say 'what have you to do with us! Have you come to torture us before the appointed time' Jesus had power over demons and they knew that if he took their power away to do evil, they would be in a state of torture. And they know that this time is coming! The demons believe AND TREMBLE!

All power and authority belongs to god.

Collosians 2:10and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority.

If all a heart knows to do, is evil, having no power to do so, would be torture.

And this is the goal of jesus christ 'to destroy the works of the devil'. To destroy the works of the devil, the devil and people would have to loose their power to do so. And so jesus will destroy all authority and power when he returns:

1 Cor 15:24

Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.

Satan has a certain amount of power and authority now, and he gets a great deal of it from men, just like he stole it from adam. Adam was given power to rule and dominate.

Revelations 17:12 Shows where the beast gets his authority and power from:

12"The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast. 13They have one purpose and will give their power and authority to the beast. 14They will make war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will overcome them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings--and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers."

And so all of us have been given power to do good or to do evil. We must not use our power to destroy the works of god, like satan tried to do when he appeared in the garden. Because the bible is clear that god will destroy them.

This power to do evil will be destroyed:

2 Tess 2: 7
For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way.

When satan is taken out of the way, the power to do lawlessness will be taken away as well. And that will happen in the lake of fire. And the result will be like the demons said it will be...'torture'.

Now i understand that there are many people who believe that there is no way out of the lake of fire. But if there is a change of heart in the lake of fire, what then? As i said before, the details in the bible is sketchy about this, but i know this: The bible says to the children of god ''do you not know that you will judge angels''. Hmmm....so maybe the childen of god and those fallen angels in the lake of fire, have still some things to do!

Also, you might want to consider the idea, that all mankind really is, is fallen angels. Paul called himself a messenger of god, and we also know that angels are messengers. Perhaps they are then, one and the same.

By and by....i know that there are people who ferosciously declare that there is no satan outside of us......yes indeed, if a fallen angel would be in the form of a demon in a human body, then there is no such thing as an external devil is there? Jesus chose his twelve disciples and he said, one of them was a devil!

Not all fallen angels are demons. But not all mankind is merely men.

Heneni

Reason on this for one moment! Would A God of Love, who sentenced a perfect righteous man; for that is what Adam was in the beginning, to death, whereby Adam would return from which he came, to the dust of the earth? How could the dust be tormented in any fiery place called hell? Now, consider the fact that, Adam, by his actions, brought sin and death on all mankind, and was only sentenced to return to the ground of dust; would Jehovah then turn around and sentence the entire human race of mankind to be tormented in a place of torment for all eternity, for something in which they themselves played no part in? What would occur then, was that to be true, to Jehovah's finely balanced scales of Justice? They would of course be thrown way out of balance. Jehovah would never allow that to happen. Consider the following scriptures, you will learn that there is such a thing as an 'everlasting sleep' from which one, if he suffers that sentence, would never be able to aroused from that sleep. Would never 'wake up' from that sleep. That, though, is not everlasting torment now is it?
You will learn from the following that Jehovah, who is always consistent in his dealings with mankind, puts before us, LIFE And DEATH. not life and torment. That is consistent with the Two Trees in the Garden. One represented eternal, life the other, DEATH.
Look at the following verses of Scripture, and you will learn that it would be impossible for the dead to be tormented in any fiery hot place:
19 "By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food
until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken;
for dust you are
and to dust you will return." Genesis 3:19 N.I.V.
Romans 5:12 (American Standard Version)
12 "Therefore, as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin; and so death passed unto all men, for that all sinned."-- Death passed to all men. Not torment!
15 "See, I have set before thee to-day life and good, and death and evil, Again! LIFE and DEATH.
16 in that I am commanding thee to-day to love Jehovah thy God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commands, and His statutes, and His judgments; and thou hast lived and multiplied, and Jehovah thy God hath blessed thee in the land whither thou art going in to possess it. " Deuteronomy 30:15,16 Y.L.T.5
"Among the dead -- free, As pierced ones lying in the grave, Whom Thou hast not remembered any more, Yea, they by Thy hand have been cut off." Psalm 88:5 (Y.L.T.) Here the everlasting sleep would come in, if anyone is cut off from Jehovah's helping hand.
2 "Huge numbers of people who lie dead in their graves will wake up. Some will rise up to life that will never end. Others will rise up to shame that will never end." Daniel 12:2 (N.I.R.V.)
39 "They are stirred up.
So I will set a big dinner in front of them.
I will make them drunk.
And they will shout and laugh.
But then they will lie down and die.
They will NEVER WAKE UP,"
announces the Lord.
57 "I will make Babylon's officials and wise men drunk.
I will do the same thing to its governors, officers and soldiers.
They will lie down and die. They will NEVER WAKE UP,"
announces the King. His name is The Lord Who Rules Over All. "Jeremiah 51:39,57 (NIRV)
3 "Put not your trust in princes, Nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.
4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; In that very day his thoughts perish." Psalma 146:3,4
5 "People who are still alive know they'll die.
But those who have died don't know anything.
They don't receive any more rewards.
And they are soon forgotten.
10 No matter what you do, work at it with all your might. Remember, you are going to your grave. And there isn't any work or planning or knowledge or wisdom there." Ecclesiastes 9:5,10 (NIRV)

That should do away with this Hell-Fire Doctrine, I would think! Shiner2
Don't know why my Computers prining those huge block letters. Overhall time maybe eh?

Say friend, many want a Bible heaven but they are unfamiliar withe the Bible. If there were no hell why did Jesus die a painful death to pay for sin. Many want a Bible heaven but reject the Bible Savior. In Genesis 7-8 a Holy God judged -drowned the whole world except 8 people. Salvation cleared up many issues for me. God gives peace. Jesus fixed problems. Trust Christ.

mickiel said:

I really am looking to understand God, but not this God that humans teach, but the real God of Love , Joy and Peace. Not this God of eternal hell punishing, but the God of Patience, forgiveness and Mercy.
Peace.

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I agree that the concept of hell denotes any kind of good or loving, let alone intellegent, god. It's my understanding that our definition and imagery of hell has gotten worse through the centuries and did not carry such a negative conotation originally. However, I'm curious why you would presume that a 'real god' exists, and more importantly why you'd think he'd be of love, joy, and peace? What have you based this belief on?

Humanistheart said:

I agree that the concept of hell denotes any kind of good or loving, let alone intellegent, god. It's my understanding that our definition and imagery of hell has gotten worse through the centuries and did not carry such a negative conotation originally. However, I'm curious why you would presume that a 'real god' exists, and more importantly why you'd think he'd be of love, joy, and peace? What have you based this belief on?

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I am not 100% sure, but I am 90% convinced that God exist, based on my own Archaeological studies that show tons of unearthed evidence that dovetails with the bible. Also the " Other alternitives" give me more reason to lean toward God existing, such as science and Evolution. Those two things have not convinced me that God does not exist. Then there is creation itself in all its marvels, so many things that exist which are impossible " Not to have been created." Then there is human consciousness, which I view as strong evidence that God exist.

Then there are the things you mentioned, Love, Joy and Peace, things which have no evolution, no traceable beginning other than a God of the Same charactheristics. Then there is Females, who I view as proof of Gods existence. Also there is Romance, which I view as another proof of God. Then there are Atheist, who I see as definte proof of God. Then there is evil, another thing which couldnot have evolved, it is proof of God. Then there is the bible, which I view as another proof of God.

Then there is my own self righteous mind, I believe in my own mind more than I do anythingelse, and my senses, all 5 of them, lead me to believe that God exist. And if you are more curious, go to generalforum.com and go to the religion section, where I list over 175 reasons why I believe in God.

Peace.

mickiel said:

I am not 100% sure, but I am 90% convinced that God exist, based on my own Archaeological studies that show tons of unearthed evidence that dovetails with the bible. .

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And that evidence is...?

mickiel said:

Also the " Other alternitives" give me more reason to lean toward God existing, such as science and Evolution. Those two things have not convinced me that God does not exist. Then there is creation itself in all its marvels, so many things that exist which are impossible " Not to have been created." Then there is human consciousness, which I view as strong evidence that God exist..

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Obviously they are possible without being created. They're existance is evidence of one thing, that they exist. Nothing in existance need point to a creator.

mickiel said:

Then there are the things you mentioned, Love, Joy and Peace, things which have no evolution, no traceable beginning other than a God of the Same charactheristics. .

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And your basing this one what? Clearly they have a bases in evolution because that's how we came to be.

mickiel said:

Then there is Females, who I view as proof of Gods existence. Also there is Romance, which I view as another proof of God. Then there are Atheist, who I see as definte proof of God. Then there is evil, another thing which couldnot have evolved, it is proof of God. Then there is the bible, which I view as another proof of God.


Peace.

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Evil didn't evolve. it was thought up by sentient beings, humans created alongside the idea of gods. No action is good or evil, these are terms dependant on a god. There is merely right action and right thought, what will harm and what will not? Females as proof of god? Indirectly maybe, as they are evidence of a devil. Jk, couldn't resist.

Humanistheart said:

And that evidence is...?quote

Go to forumgarden.com, or to Religionforums.org and look under the religion sections, and read the post I have on Biblical Archaeology, plenty of evidence is listed there.


quote
Obviously they are possible without being created. They're existance is evidence of one thing, that they exist. Nothing in existance need point to a creator.quote

Everything in existence points to a creator. And don't get me wrong, this truth is " For Me", it fits me, I understand a little of it and accept it. Doesn't matter to me whats for other people, this is for me.




quote
Evil didn't evolve. it was thought up by sentient beings, humans created alongside the idea of gods. No action is good or evil, these are terms dependant on a god. There is merely right action and right thought, what will harm and what will not? Females as proof of god? Indirectly maybe, as they are evidence of a devil. Jk, couldn't resist.

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My thinking and your thinking are miles apart. Your thinking is not for me.

And I am okay with that.

Peace.

mickiel said:

I really am looking to understand God, but not this God that humans teach, but the real God of Love , Joy and Peace. Not this God of eternal hell punishing, but the God of Patience, forgiveness and Mercy. You know, the real God, not this insane lunatic that many are trying to pass God off as being. You know, this lunatic that will place humans in this eternal Pain amphlipier and punish them for billions upon trillions of untold time and on into infinity. I just can't imagine how out of control this hell fire belief has gotten. And how much these bloodthirsty christians who teach it have ruined Gods reputation.

The eternal punishing of anything, muchless a human, is a sick concept, yet many believers have swallowed it into their belief, hook, line and sinker. And THAT is evidence of just how much foolishness we will absorb.

Peace.

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He alternates between the two in the Bible. He's psychotic, no doubt.

Rat Fink said:

He alternates between the two in the Bible. He's psychotic, no doubt.

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Well I certainly know that I am phychotic, no doubt there, just speaking for myself. It runs in my bloodline. But there is somethingelse in my blood, a thrist for the truth. Some things just don't match up with the information we have been passed down from generation to generation. In Jeremiah 16:19, latter part of verse;" Our Fathers have inherited nothing but falsehood, futility and things of no profit. This is one reason I am physcotic, and its another reason we have been fed a bunch of bull by religions.

Peace.

mickiel said:

Well I certainly know that I am phychotic, no doubt there, just speaking for myself. It runs in my bloodline. But there is somethingelse in my blood, a thrist for the truth. Some things just don't match up with the information we have been passed down from generation to generation. In Jeremiah 16:19, latter part of verse;" Our Fathers have inherited nothing but falsehood, futility and things of no profit. This is one reason I am physcotic, and its another reason we have been fed a bunch of bull by religions.

Peace.

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In addition to being physco, I am superstcious, I think God, is really God. A God wouldnot eternally punish. No matter how stupid we are, how perverted we get, how nutty religious we warp to, a God will forgive and Love, thats what a real God will do.

Now a human is different. We will punish as long as we can, and belief in eternal punishment is the strongest christian doctrine there is. And thats a shame, when your most popular doctrine has to do with punishment.

Peace.

mickiel said:

In addition to being physco, I am superstcious, I think God, is really God. A God wouldnot eternally punish. No matter how stupid we are, how perverted we get, how nutty religious we warp to, a God will forgive and Love, thats what a real God will do.

Now a human is different. We will punish as long as we can, and belief in eternal punishment is the strongest christian doctrine there is. And thats a shame, when your most popular doctrine has to do with punishment.

Peace.

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People continue to believe that Christ was punished and put to death, in order that humans can be punished for all of Eternity.

Peace.

mickiel said:

People continue to believe that Christ was punished and put to death, in order that humans can be punished for all of Eternity.

Peace.

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When the bottom layer of a pile is unstable, the whole pile can come crashing down. So it is with foolish doctrines in churchs, when the foundational doctrines are flawed, the whole religion is really then based on foolishness. This sick concept of eternal hell punishing is foolishness, but it is a foundational doctrine of christianity.

Sin is the devils work, and christians are saying that the gates of hell will be full of the results of the devils work. In this unholy doctrine, the gates of hell will prevail against Gods work. But Jesus also has a work. In 1John 3:8, " Jesus came to earth for one purpose; " To Destroy the Works of the Devil." To eliminate the possibility of humans being destroyed by sin.

That is Jesus work, to make sure none of us are doomed. And I want to go further into that.

Peace.