I cannot find this scripture. Are you sure that is the right book/chapter/verse?
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Did Jesus say he was God???
- Thread starter Muffled
- Start date
I cannot find this scripture. Are you sure that is the right book/chapter/verse?
John 5:30 He said God was working through Him,and that it was not Himself that was doing any thing,He was giving the father all the glory.
ayani
member
well, it is clear from scripture that Jesus is under the Father, and that the Father still reigned in heaven above while Jesus walked and ministered on earth.
at the same time, Jesus says that if we have seen Him, we have seen and known God personally (John 14:6-7). one of His titles is Immanuel (God with us), and He is shown to have the power to restore life, forgive sins, completely heal terrible illnesses, and control the natural world. He generally does not ask the Father to do these miracles through Him- He just does them in the power of God. so Jesus has and is the power and authority of God in human form, while being under and sent by God Almighty.
He was also born as a Man of the Holy Spirit, and so must share in something of His Father's divine nature in a way no other Man ever has or will. He also says interestingly that He had glory with His Father before the world began (John 17:5). so Jesus is also eternal as well as historical.
i would say that it is not at all inaccurate to say that Jesus is God. yes, there is certainly a hierarchical relationship between Him and the Father. but for us humans, Jesus is God's love, power, word, and grace come down to our level, in a Person. for us, He is most certainly God Almighty made man.
at the same time, Jesus says that if we have seen Him, we have seen and known God personally (John 14:6-7). one of His titles is Immanuel (God with us), and He is shown to have the power to restore life, forgive sins, completely heal terrible illnesses, and control the natural world. He generally does not ask the Father to do these miracles through Him- He just does them in the power of God. so Jesus has and is the power and authority of God in human form, while being under and sent by God Almighty.
He was also born as a Man of the Holy Spirit, and so must share in something of His Father's divine nature in a way no other Man ever has or will. He also says interestingly that He had glory with His Father before the world began (John 17:5). so Jesus is also eternal as well as historical.
i would say that it is not at all inaccurate to say that Jesus is God. yes, there is certainly a hierarchical relationship between Him and the Father. but for us humans, Jesus is God's love, power, word, and grace come down to our level, in a Person. for us, He is most certainly God Almighty made man.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
I can't disagree with any of that, ayani.
blueman
God's Warrior
This topic tends to get pretty old. There are passages in the New Testament that Jesus affirmed His equal nature with God The Father. Why did the religious leaders lead the charge to have Him executed? They charge Jesus with blasphemy. They must have intepreted His words to associate Himself on a level playing field with The Father. To dispute this would not be consistent with the historical record.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
He was equal to His Father in terms of His divine nature, but He was definitely subservient to His Father in position.
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
:sarcastic
These aren't even implicit......
Yeshua in John 14:9 was teaching that his god was with him.....as guiding and helping him to complete the task that his god had given him to do. And yes....all that I just said is confirmed by your scripture. It was Yeshua who said his god gave him a task to be completed. If he is God then how can he give himself a task to complete. Surely such a thing for an omnipotent, omniscient is futile.
John 14:10 basically says what I just said above. Here's the quote in full;
Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
If the words are not Jesus' ("God") as you say then who's are they?
Remember it was your John the Baptist who did not think Yeshua was God and knew it was their god who gave Yeshua the words to speak;
John 3:34
For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.
He says Yeshua was sent by his god and was given authority to speak on behalf of his god.
Verse 14:11 simply means they are one in purpose as he later in the same book Of John says...in his ("PRAYER") to his god.....
John 17:21
That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Were his disciples to be considered gods as well?
Mind you ....basically the WHOLE of chapter 17 is a prayer from Yeshua to his god....not only is he praying but begging as well....interesting how Yeshua didn't know he himself was God....
Remember the whole....God sent me...well it's right there in in verse 4, chapter 17.....
God told him to say it. Father in the middle of a sentence with a capital F means God.
John 10:30 Jesus speaking: "I and My Father are one."
John 10:31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him.
Why would the Jews want to stone Jesus if He was not stating that He was God. The Jews certainly thought He was claiming that, and that is because He was. Is that implicit enough for ya?
Evandr
Stripling Warrior
I think it might help to think a bit on what it means to be perfect. There is no higher level of thought processes that can exist lest perfection has not been obtained.
When Christ said that He was in the Father and the Father in Him He was alluding to the fact that both He and the Father are perfect individuals and to know one is to know the other because of their perfect emulation of each other. What one says or does is exactly what the other would have said or done if the other were present. That is the intent of thought any time someone speaks of a group being one as did Christ when He said that He and the Father were one.
When two individuals have obtained perfection in all things there is no hierarchy of greatness to be sought after, only respect for that hierarchy and a desire to increase the number of perfect individuals in the family unit. Christ respects the fact that He had reached perfection only because the father had already done so and passed that ability on to Him and made it possible for Him to pass that ability to others, a goal we can all obtain, in fact, a goal we have been commanded to seek after.
That is why Christ said that He could do nothing of Himself because it was by the nature of God the Father that the Son exists at all, or anyone else for that matter, and that He can only do what the Father would have him do by virtue of their mutual perfection in thought and action. Anything less would render Christ less than perfect and the connection between Him and the Father would be diminished rendering Christ unworthy to accomplish the Atonement.
Perfection leaves no room for the gaining of intellect or wisdom because there is nothing left to gain. Where there is more than one perfect individual the only growth comes from the growth of the family and a perfect respect for the hierarchy of that family. When you think about it, the passing of perfection from sire to son (or daughter) is the only way an omnipotent being can have increase because they already posses perfect knowledge, wisdom and power themselves.
I believe that Christ's ability to do what He did while clothed in mortality was because of the pure and complete connection He had with the power of the Father (which is the priesthood) and that that power and authority was given to and manifest through and by Him without limits or reservation. Christ had a work to do and He did it as a perfect extension of the father while He walked the earth even though He, in and of Himself, was, and is, a separate sentient being apart from the Father.
When Christ said that He was in the Father and the Father in Him He was alluding to the fact that both He and the Father are perfect individuals and to know one is to know the other because of their perfect emulation of each other. What one says or does is exactly what the other would have said or done if the other were present. That is the intent of thought any time someone speaks of a group being one as did Christ when He said that He and the Father were one.
When two individuals have obtained perfection in all things there is no hierarchy of greatness to be sought after, only respect for that hierarchy and a desire to increase the number of perfect individuals in the family unit. Christ respects the fact that He had reached perfection only because the father had already done so and passed that ability on to Him and made it possible for Him to pass that ability to others, a goal we can all obtain, in fact, a goal we have been commanded to seek after.
That is why Christ said that He could do nothing of Himself because it was by the nature of God the Father that the Son exists at all, or anyone else for that matter, and that He can only do what the Father would have him do by virtue of their mutual perfection in thought and action. Anything less would render Christ less than perfect and the connection between Him and the Father would be diminished rendering Christ unworthy to accomplish the Atonement.
Perfection leaves no room for the gaining of intellect or wisdom because there is nothing left to gain. Where there is more than one perfect individual the only growth comes from the growth of the family and a perfect respect for the hierarchy of that family. When you think about it, the passing of perfection from sire to son (or daughter) is the only way an omnipotent being can have increase because they already posses perfect knowledge, wisdom and power themselves.
I believe that Christ's ability to do what He did while clothed in mortality was because of the pure and complete connection He had with the power of the Father (which is the priesthood) and that that power and authority was given to and manifest through and by Him without limits or reservation. Christ had a work to do and He did it as a perfect extension of the father while He walked the earth even though He, in and of Himself, was, and is, a separate sentient being apart from the Father.
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
Then go and learn how the Aramaic, hebrew, arabic and greek language is written. There is was no and is no such thing as an upper case or lower case letter in these languages. Uppercase and lower case letting happens when you translate into english.
This, what you and countless others are doing, is called "Quote Mining". This is truly unfortunate because you don't take the time, don't want to or simply can't understand the context of the situation presented.
The situation begins well before these to famous verses you chose to lay out. They had already charged him as being a mad man and was telling others to not even listen to him. Regardless of what he was talking about they didn't understand or want to understand what he was trying to teach. He was trying to tell them that he had been given authority to do what he was there to do. but notice back at verse 10:29....Yeshua let's everyone know that there is a difference between him and his god that gave him authority....?
John 10:29
My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
In order to be given something one has to be the giver. As we proceed we find that his purpose was to do the will of his god that sent him and commanded him what to say. Yes...his god sent him and commanded him what he should say. This is all in your scripture.
Again, you simply lack the ability to understand the context of what was going on in the whole story.
Yes, it is true from one of the passages that they accused him of making himself a god (refer to John 10:33).....but he has to clarify to them his position and what he meant by what he has been telling them.....
John 10:34
Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
John 10:35
If (he) called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
Who was the he....he was referring to...if he himself is God? Notice he's not talking about himself rather he is informing them he is talking about his god....while quoting Old Testament scripture.
John 10:36
Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
It should be perfectly clear hear that he is not God as he is trying to clear up a misconception they have of him by stating that it is his god that blessed him and sent him into the world.....and he refers to himself the son of God.
So NO...again...there is no implicit statement here from him referring to himself as God or even being equal to God other than being equal in purpose.
John 14:10 "Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father that dwells in Me does the works."
Father: Greek root 3962- pater-: a primary word; a "father" (literally or figuratively near or more remote): father, parent. From Stong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible which enables you to trace every single word of the Bible to its Greek and Hebrew roots with definitions of all words in the Bible as well. Here it is clear that Father can mean God or a parent. Since God is Jesus' only begotten Son, it means both when Jesus is speaking.
Father: Greek root 3962- pater-: a primary word; a "father" (literally or figuratively near or more remote): father, parent. From Stong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible which enables you to trace every single word of the Bible to its Greek and Hebrew roots with definitions of all words in the Bible as well. Here it is clear that Father can mean God or a parent. Since God is Jesus' only begotten Son, it means both when Jesus is speaking.
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
This quote does not mean what you want it to mean. This quote simply means they are one in purpose. Being one in purpose does not mean on in the same....especially if you take in careful consideration the rest of the book of John where Yeshua is praying to his god. Not only does he flat out say that his god is the only true god but it was his god that "sent" him.....Then in John 17:21 the same style is presented as in verse 14:10.....but here he includes the disciples. Are we to consider the disciples ad God too...?
John 17:21
That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
One in purpose...not one in the same...
I'm very familiar with Strong's as well as Thayer. No matter the definition from either...the word "Father" definately shows how one relates to the other. Yeshua shows that his father is above him, greater than him as well as greater than all....He is a "son"...not a father....But for true clarification as to how Yeshua saw himself in relation to his god one only has to look at his {"PRAYER") to his god in John....chpater 17....unless Yeshua was a mad man who like to talk and pray to himself.....
Muffled
Jesus in me
This is something that has been discussed before the Bible was put together as one book instead of several books operating independantly. What is the relationship between the human nature of Jesus and the divine nature. For isntance, when I speak it is not usually with my spiritual mind but with my physical mind (except on here where I let the Spirit of God speak through me). Often the two minds are given the same term of human but that would not be the case with Jesus who has a physical mind and The Divine Spirit. So through the physical mind Jesus can say "I can do nothing" because the physical mind does not have the power of God. But The Father (Spirit of GOd) dwells in Jesus and provides the word and power of God.
BTW the ego of the physical mind is not the true everlasting self of the spirit. It is transitory and dies with the body while the Spirit of God has always existed.
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
I've already cleared this one up. You persist to stop at 10:30 and 10:31 when after the charge from the Jews had been made Yeshua proceeds to clear up their misconception of him. Remember, they were already not trying to hear him and if they didn't want to listen to him then they certainly were not trying to comprehend anything he was trying to say. Also notice back at verse 10:29 Yeshua says his god "gave them" to him. If he is God then how can God give something to himself. In order to be given something there must be a giver.
John
10:32 Yeshua answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
That's the charge. They accused him of making himself God. Yeshua DENIES being God rather he informs them he is a SON of his god but proceeds to inform them of the scripture where it is written that all are gods thus the word of God can't be broken (changed).
10:34 Yeshua answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
That is part of his answer. But they still didn't understand what he was trying to say to them or simply didn't want to listen.
10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
Notice here...he's not talking about himself rather he is referring to his god as the one calling others gods.
10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
I was going to say....."Can't get any clearer than this"...but in fact chapter 17 makes it clear who he is in relation to his god. Notice this is a theme echoed...(He sent me)
10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
Not his (Yeshua's) will but the will (the task, the job given to him by his god to complete).
10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
Know by the works that I do that I am one in purpose with my god and I am doing his will.
Here's a more clarified version from a christian biblical site I use.
[FONT=Arial, Verdana, Helvetica]30The Father and I are one.
31 Once again the Jewish leaders picked up stones to kill him.
32 Jesus said, "At my Father's direction I have done many things to help the people. For which one of these good deeds are you killing me?"
33 They replied, "Not for any good work, but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, have made yourself God."
34 Jesus replied, "It is written in your own law that God said to certain leaders of the people, `I say, you are gods!
35 And you know that the Scriptures cannot be altered. So if those people, who received God's message, were called `gods,'
36 why do you call it blasphemy when the Holy One who was sent into the world by the Father says, `I am the Son of God'?
[/FONT]
Before quote mining and taking things out of context you must go to the beginning and read to the end of the situation to fully understand what is meant.
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Where in those 2 passages does Jesus deny being God? It is not in there. That because He never denies it.
All Jesus is saying here is if you do not believe His work is Gods works then fine don't believe.
You really need to learn how to translate.
But if I do, even though you do not believe me, believe the works; so that you can know, and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him.
So blab all you want John 10:30 is clear cut proof of Jesus saying He was God aswell. All your interpretations are rubbish and make no sense.
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
I pointed them out to you. He quotes the law and says all who receive the word of God are gods...and I am the (SON) of God. Also it is very difficult for you to explain away chapter 17. Additionally NO WHERE in either of the quotes you've provided Yeshua says HE IS GOD...It appears you're trying to put words in his mouth he never uttered. He explicitly says the opposite in two areas of the book that he, Yeshua, has a god. Not only does he mention this to some one but said it prior in his prayer to his god....
True.....but notice the work he said he was doing was not his but it was his god's. He was doing what he was instructed to to, what he was "sent" to do.
Regardless of my translation or yours above....there is nothing there from him indicating he is God.....only that he is carrying out the will of the one who sent him. In order to be sent there must be a sender. You make such great leaps to make a man into a god...especially...when HE NEVER EVER says he is but gives all indication to the contrary.
Then start with Chapter 17...Because it's clear your interpertation leaves alot to be desired. From beginning to the end Yeshua is EXPLICITLY saying he has a god and is praying to and begging his god. We find these actions throughout the NT (four gospels)....but John's Chapter 17 is direct...more so than your vain attempt to assert he said he was God by using verses which you've clearly misinterpreted. I'll wait for your critique of chapter 17 should you feel equipped to handle what is written there......
No that because He claimed it in John 10:30. I have only posted it like 15 times now. You have yet to show where Jesus denies that claim.
You do know Jesus is also called Immanuel right? That means God with us. Its in the gospel of Matthew.
No, I was pointing out your mis-interpretations because you was using them to refute John 10:30. There is nothing in those scriptures that refutes Jesus' claim in John 10:30.
Fine John 17 oh look Jesus saying that He is God again.
John 17: 9
"I pray for them. I do not pray for the world, but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours"
John 17:10
"And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them.
You really need to understand what the Trinity is to understand why Jesus would talk to Himself.
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
John 17:3
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
In order to be sent there must be a sender. This in itself denotes he is separate from his god. He flat out says his god is the true god and his god sent him. This is what John the baptist believed when he made his statement. He believed Yeshua was sent by god to speak on behalf of God.
17:4
I have glorified You on the earth: I have finished the work which You gave me to do.
Yea...really clear here. No need for interpretation unless you feel the need to read something that just isn't there.
17:8
For I have given unto them the words which You gave me; and they have received [them], and have known surely that I came out from You, and they have believed that You did send me.
I could keep going but verse after verse is Yeshua referencing his god. It is a prayer and in his prayer he's begging and pleading his god. No where int the OT does God talk like this.
NOWHERE in the four gospels was he EVER referred to as Immanuel/Emmanuel.
And there is nothing in that statement that implicitly or explicitly says he is. What we find in the statement is that his will is to do the will of his god. It's the same as we find in John 17:21 but surly we aren't considering the disciples as God too are we?
And yest when you couple these quotes with the rest of the PRAYER to his god we find the exact opposite to what you assert.
Yea...this makes no sense at all. Your god prays, talks to and begs himself for things that are already his...? He can send himself and command himself what to say and do. From the heavens he proclaims that he is pleased with himself and all should listen to him........LUDICROUS......
Jordan St. Francis
Well-Known Member
In view of the author of Matthew, Jesus is Emmanuel:
Mat. 1.23