Does God create his "rules" or do we?

tomspug · Feb 24, 2009

Many look at the concept of God as an antagonist, a being who is absolutely incompatible with certain aspects of our nature. We often then come to the conclusion that God is arrogant for seemingly demanding that we do what does NOT come naturally.

However, over time I have developed a different definition of what exactly "sin" is. I believe that sin is not something that God chooses "in time", it is something that is inerrant in our being. The reason I come to this conclusion is because I believe that sin is the definition of "actions that do ourselves and others direct harm". For example, Cain killing his brother was sinful. God said to him, before the act occurred,

"If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? If you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must master it."

Interesting, I thought, that God doesn't consider "not doing what is right" a sin, but a pathway TO sin. This doesn't sound like a fundamentalist Santa-God, who's keeping a list and checking it twice. It sounds like a God who is a concerned observor, who allows us to be ourselves. He doesn't hesitate, however, to tell Cain that what he is doing IS wrong. He flat out tells him that his heart was not in the right place, and that he was on a course to destruction.

This, in my mind, is what religion is all about. Religion SHOULDN'T be about condemning people and making them feel like they are bad people. Religion should be simultaneously a warning, an assurance, a motivator, etc. Religion should emulate God, not define him.

Back to the main idea of the topic, God doesn't set the rules. We do. Why? Because we're the ones who KNOW what is right and what is wrong. We know, because the truth is in our bones. God is a loving parent who interferes when we are on a path to destruction. He slaps our hand away from a burning stove when we do not know that it is hot. He let's us KNOW that we are hurting ourselves. Does that sound like an arrogant God to you? You don't have to agree with me that this is the way that God is, but you have to admit that this concept of God is more palatable and, in my mind, certainly more Biblical. It's right there at the beginning of it all: "If you do what is right (in your heart, not your mind), will you not be accepted (by God)?"

Storm · Feb 24, 2009

Immediate thoughts:

1) No, very few people have that opinion of THE "concept of God". That's their reaction to your presentation of your concept of God. Big difference. If it's an inaccurate understanding, work on your presentation.

2) I have no quarrel with this presentation, but I do have trouble reconciling it with the doctrinal bigotry against queers. OTOH, I can't recall whether or not you accept that doctrine.

tomspug · Feb 24, 2009

Storm said:
Immediate thoughts:

1) No, very few people have that opinion of THE "concept of God". That's their reaction to your presentation of your concept of God. Big difference. If it's an inaccurate understanding, work on your presentation.

2) I have no quarrel with this presentation, but I do have trouble reconciling it with the doctrinal bigotry against queers. OTOH, I can't recall whether or not you accept that doctrine.

I don't accept it, personally, only because I literally have never had gay friends, or have but at the time were not openly so. From my theological understanding, the Bible implies that lust is wrong and that homosexuality at least partially falls under that category, if not the entire thing. I could not possibly fairly draw ANY conclusion without personal experience, so I am forced to simply sit on the sidelines and assume that it is not. But I refuse to join in with the debate again until I am equipped to engage in it. As far as equality for all, both my wife and I are sympathetic towards the Christian view, but also are both in support of gay marriage.

Does that answer your questions?

Storm · Feb 24, 2009

Yep, thanks. BTW, I finally responded to your Bush thread, too.

herushura · Feb 24, 2009

We create the rules, the 10 Commanments, is just a shortened version of the egpyt commandments.

"Hail to thee, great God, Lord of the Two Truths.
I have come unto thee, my Lord, that thou mayest bring me to see thy beauty.
I know thee,
I know thy name,
I know the names of the 42 Gods who are with thee in this broad hall of the Two Truths . . . Behold,
I am come unto thee. I have brought thee truth;
I have done away with sin for thee.
I have not sinned against anyone.
I have not mistreated people.
I have not done evil instead of righteousness . . .
I have not reviled the God.
I have not laid violent hands on an orphan.
I have not done what the God abominates . . .
I have not killed; I have not turned anyone over to a killer.
I have not caused anyone's suffering . . .
I have not copulated (illicitly); I have not been unchaste.
I have not increased nor diminished the measure,
I have not diminished the palm;
I have not encroached upon the fields.
I have not added to the balance weights;
I have not tempered with the plumb bob of the balance.
I have not taken milk from a child's mouth;
I have not driven small cattle from their herbage...
I have not stopped water in its seasons;
I have not built a dam against flowing water.
I have not quenched a fire in its time . . .
I have not kept cattle away from the God's property.
I have not blocked the God at his processions

tomspug · Feb 24, 2009

I see the Ten Commandments as an actual definition, by God, of what exactly sin is, as opposed to what is simply "wrong" (the path to sin). For example, it is not breaking the Ten Commandments to become bitter or angry, but becoming bitter or angry can give you reason or self-justification to do "sin". For example, just a couple lines down from the Cain passage, Cain's great-grandson Lamech:

I have killed a man for wounding me, a young man for injuring me. If Cain is avenged seven times, then Lamech seventy-seven times.

herushura · Feb 24, 2009

tomspug said:
I see the Ten Commandments as an actual definition, by God, of what exactly sin is, as opposed to what is simply "wrong" (the path to sin). For example, it is not breaking the Ten Commandments to become bitter or angry, but becoming bitter or angry can give you reason or self-justification to do "sin". For example, just a couple lines down from the Cain passage, Cain's great-grandson Lamech:

Lets see how may commandments jesus broke.

1. You shalt have no other god but me. (Jesus says he is god, people followed)

2.You shalt not take the Lords name in vain. (Eli Eli Why have you foresaken me)

3.Remember thou keep the Sabbath Day (He was caught breaking the rule)
And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man
for the sabbath:" (Mar 2:27)

4. Honor thy Father and thy Mother. (Matthew 12:46-49 Jesus was told in
the Synagogue that His mother and brothers were waiting for Him. Jesus said: Who is my mother? Who are my brothers?), Woman, what have I to do with thee?" (Joh 2:4)

5. Thou shalt not kill. (He killed, and ripped Judahs intestines out, he killed himself.)

6.Thou shalt not commit adultery. "Who knows", forgave a women who did. Jesus had 3 women, mary, mary cleopas, mary magdalene
book of phillip, magdalene his is wife

7. Thou shalf not stead (stole a donkey in luke 19,29,34)

8.Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor (Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?" (Mar 15:34))

ayani · Feb 24, 2009

Religion SHOULDN'T be about condemning people and making them feel like they are bad people. Religion should be simultaneously a warning, an assurance, a motivator, etc. Religion should emulate God, not define him.

i agree, to an extent. yet every religion will tend to give a different portrait of God.

the Bible shows us God's willful, just, merciful, and purposeful hand in human history. through His Word, we can discern what He is like, what He has said, and the ways in which He would like our hearts to walk.

through His Son, He spells this out in the flesh.

in other words, not every faith says the same things about God, or gives Him the same attributes. one faith says He finds eating meat a sin, the other sacrifices animals to Him. one says He enjoins only monogamy, another that He allows and blesses polygamy. so it depends on which religion one is talking about, too.

i would define sin in two ways- one as a state of being, in which one's heart does not know God, respond to Him, or walk with Him. in such a state one may do either loving or cruel things, wise or foolish things; but one is still in spiritual ignorance insofar as knowing God personally, being reconciled to Him through Christ. one is still in spiritual darkness, whatever beliefs the person may faithfully hold or live out, and regardless of one's actions.

and the other definition, as things one does knowingly or unintentionally, which cause one to stumble or draw one's heart further from Him, once one knows Him. for example, as a Christian, i know that using bad language or obscenities does not honor Him or reflect Him. yet sometimes i still swear or say crude things, whether they slip out or i say them even while i know it's not right. either way, it's wrong, and sinful. i don't physically beat myself up over it, but i do recognize it, ask for forgiveness, and His help in being more faithful and careful.

outside of the context of Christian discipleship, that may not make a lot of sense. but it goes back to the realities of what knowing Christ, God incarnate, does to change a person, their priorities, and their perspectives. one no longer has a simple human perspective- one has Christ's own perspective on God, man, self, life, and purpose. it's different, new, and Spirit-driven.

ayani · Feb 24, 2009

1. You shalt have no other god but me. (Jesus says he is god, people followed)

incorrect. Jesus rightly says He is the Son of God and Messiah, and people believed and followed. Jesus always honored the Father, yet rightly pointed to Himself as the One through whom humanity could come to know the Father personally.

2.You shalt not take the name in vain. (Eli Eli Why have you foresaken me)

crying out to God in distress or pain does not equal blasphemy.

3.Remember thou keep the Sabbath Day (He was caught breaking the rule)
And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man
for the sabbath:" (Mar 2:27)

Christ pointed out that anyone would pull an animal out of a dangerous pit on the Sabbath, and He healed on the Sabbath. He was not against keeping the seventh day holy, but He was against strict rules which deprived others of help or mercy when they needed it. (Hosea 6:6 and Matthew 23:23)

4. Honor thy Father and thy Mother. (Matthew 12:46-49 Jesus was told in
the Synagogue that His mother and brothers were waiting for Him. Jesus said: Who is my mother? Who are my brothers?), Woman, what have I to do with thee?" (John 2:4)

Jesus is the Messiah, Heru. one has to understand that a lot of her Son's work went over hear head. Jesus came not to please His family in Nazareth (who took a while to believe in Him), but to do His Father's work. and in the Hebraic context, Jesus' calling His mother "woman" is not a term of disrespect, but of respect. it gets translated badly into English in many cases, though. Jesus did honor His Father throughout His life and through His death, and He honored His mother as well, as she stood at the foot of His cross (John 19:25-27).

5. Thou shalt not kill. (He killed, and ripped Judahs intestines out, he killed himself.)

no, Heru. Judas humg Himself, and His intestines were spilled on a field. Jesus did not come and brutally murder anyone after His resurrection.

6.Thou shalt not commit adultery. "Who knows", forgave a women who did.

Jesus forgave her sins. He did not condone what she had done, but He forgave her, and showed mercy. He is clear in the Gospels that adultery is a great danger, and a sin. He treats sin harshly, yet shows mercy and love towards the sinner.

7. Thou shalt not stead (stole a donkey in luke 19,29,34)

He gave instruction for the disciples to give an explaination to the owner as to where they were taking his colt. as opposed to a Dukes of Hazard response (when you see the owner coming, run!) Jesus, Lord of Lords, knew right where the colt would be, and sends for it, giving an explanation to the owner as to why. and the ownder, apparently, was ok with it enough to let them go.

8.Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor (Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?" (Mar 15:34))

Christ cried out echoing the words of the Psalmist. truly God had not forsaken Him or left Him, and Jesus knew this, as He knew that His resurrection was not far off. He echos the writings of His earthly ancestor David, identifying Himself on the cross with both David's kingship, and suffering.

ayani · Feb 24, 2009

1. You shalt have no other god but me. (Jesus says he is god, people followed)

incorrect. Jesus rightly says He is the Son of God and Messiah, and people believed and followed. Jesus always honored the Father, yet rightly pointed to Himself as the One through whom humanity could come to know the Father personally.

2.You shalt not take the name in vain. (Eli Eli Why have you foresaken me)

crying out to God in distress or pain does not equal blasphemy.

3.Remember thou keep the Sabbath Day (He was caught breaking the rule)
And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man
for the sabbath:" (Mar 2:27)

Christ pointed out that anyone would pull an animal out of a dangerous pit on the Sabbath, and He healed on the Sabbath. He was not against keeping the seventh day holy, but He was against strict rules which deprived others of help or mercy when they needed it. (Hosea 6:6 and Matthew 23:23)

4. Honor thy Father and thy Mother. (Matthew 12:46-49 Jesus was told in
the Synagogue that His mother and brothers were waiting for Him. Jesus said: Who is my mother? Who are my brothers?), Woman, what have I to do with thee?" (John 2:4)

Jesus is the Messiah, Heru. one has to understand that a lot of her Son's work went over Mary's head at first. Jesus came not to please His family in Nazareth (who took a while to believe in Him), but to do His Father's work. and in the Hebraic context, Jesus' calling His mother "woman" is not a term of disrespect, but of respect. it gets translated badly into English in many cases, though. Jesus did honor His Father throughout His life and through His death, and He honored His mother as well, as she stood at the foot of His cross (John 19:25-27).

5. Thou shalt not kill. (He killed, and ripped Judahs intestines out, he killed himself.)

no, Heru. Judas humg Himself, and His intestines were spilled on a field. Jesus did not come and brutally murder anyone after His resurrection.

6.Thou shalt not commit adultery. "Who knows", forgave a women who did.

Jesus forgave her sins. He did not condone what she had done, but He forgave her, and showed mercy. He is clear in the Gospels that adultery is a great danger, and a sin. He treats sin harshly, yet shows mercy and love towards the sinner.

7. Thou shalt not stead (stole a donkey in luke 19,29,34)

He gave instruction for the disciples to give an explaination to the owner as to where they were taking his colt. as opposed to a Dukes of Hazard response (when you see the owner coming, run!) Jesus, Lord of Lords, knew right where the colt would be, and sends for it, giving an explanation to the owner as to why. and the ownder, apparently, was ok with it enough to let them go.

8.Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor (Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?" (Mar 15:34))

Christ cried out echoing the words of the Psalmist. truly God had not forsaken Him or left Him, and Jesus knew this, as He knew that His resurrection was not far off. He echos the writings of His earthly ancestor David, identifying Himself on the cross with both David's kingship, and suffering.

herushura · Feb 24, 2009

1. You shalt have no other god but me. (Jesus says he is god, people followed) incorrect. Jesus rightly says He is the Son of God and Messiah, and people believed and followed. Jesus always honored the Father, yet rightly pointed to Himself as the One through whom humanity could come to know the Father personally.

Son of god - messiah. This make jesus not as devine as he his, King Hoshea, he was annointed and called son of god, yet he did evil in gods eyes, as did other messiah kings of israel and judah. That is why god abandoned Jesus, like he abandoned israel and judah when babylon and persia bulldozed judah to death, the last king cried to the lord, lord did not listen and he was killed afterwards, he did evil in his eyes so gods punishment to him was "Excommunication"
God Left him, such like he left jesus to die at the cross. Jesus did not ressurect, he asscending to heaven like elijah, pplus ressurection was a belief system to the egyptian and hebrew messiah kings as there afterdeath belief.

ayani · Feb 24, 2009

Heru ~

actually, Jesus was resurrected. God did not abandon Him, or reject Him, or turn away from Him.

the Gospel narratives (which you quote when it seems right to make Jesus "look bad" and which you reject when they back Christian faith), report that Jesus is the Messiah not only in a political sense (to be fulfilled when He comes again), but in a spiritual sense, being born of God's Spirit, being One with the Father, and having all power on heaven and earth given to Him *by* the Father.

God did not let His Son see corruption in the grave. through Him, death was overcome, and God's grace and face became available and visible to all nations.

herushura · Feb 24, 2009

ayani said:
Heru ~

actually, Jesus was resurrected. God did not abandon Him, or reject Him, or turn away from Him.

the Gospel narratives (which you quote when it seems right to make Jesus "look bad" and which you reject when they back Christian faith), report that Jesus is the Messiah not only in a political sense (to be fulfilled when He comes again), but in a spiritual sense, being born of God's Spirit, being One with the Father, and having all power on heaven and earth given to Him *by* the Father.

God did not let His Son see corruption in the grave. through Him, death was overcome, and God's grace and face became available and visible to all nations.

He was not physicly ressurect nor died, he Died(excommunicated) and returned
if you broke the essene strict rules your were excommunicated the worst possible punishment, you were considerd spiritually dead.

ayani · Feb 24, 2009

Jesus was not an Essene.

the Essenes were a strictly separatist Jewish group, who lived outside of the cities, were very careful about ritual cleanliness and contact with outsiders, and who were against paying any kind of support to the Roman government.

Jesus traveled extensively in urban areas, talked and ate with "unclean" peoples, challenged the Pharisees on their strict keeping of laws while neglecting mercy, and who advocated the paying of taxes to the occupying government.

the Eseenes expected Messiah would come soon, true. yet their values and practices were very much in contrast to Jesus' own.

Jesus was excommunicated by no one, Heru. He was put to death on a cross by the Roman authorities at the behest of Temple leaders. even securlar historical sources attest to this. on the third day, He was riased to life, and appeared to His disciples and to scores more. Christians see this as the greatest sign of His divinity, His Godhood, His eternal nature, and His victory over death and evil.

herushura said:
He was not physicly ressurect nor died, he Died(excommunicated) and returned
if you broke the essene strict rules your were excommunicated the worst possible punishment, you were considerd spiritually dead.

Kcnorwood · Feb 24, 2009

tomspug said:
I see the Ten Commandments as an actual definition, by God.

The problem with the 10 commandmets is that Moses himself could of wrote them he was up on the mountain long enough.

ayani · Feb 24, 2009

he could have.

but the Biblical narrative *begins* with the assumption of God's willful, purposeful hand in human history. simply reading the Bible for what it says and bears witness to, you can not take the possibility of God's person and plan out of the Bible. the Bible, in effect, is the Creator's hand in history. people, events, dates, entire civilizations, wars, and times of peace. for everything there is a season, and a time for every purpose under Heaven.

secular speculation or disbelief may tell you that Moses himself could have written those commandments, but the Bible is clear that he did not. such speculation takes a Biblical event (the giving of the commandments on Sinai) and strips it of the very affirmed and central narrative thread (God's existence, guidance, and plan) which holds the entire tapestry together, and makes the stories worth telling.

Kcnorwood said:
The problem with the 10 commandmets is that Moses himself could of wrote them he was up on the mountain long enough.

sandy whitelinger · Feb 24, 2009

tomspug said:
Many look at the concept of God as an antagonist, a being who is absolutely incompatible with certain aspects of our nature. We often then come to the conclusion that God is arrogant for seemingly demanding that we do what does NOT come naturally.

However, over time I have developed a different definition of what exactly "sin" is. I believe that sin is not something that God chooses "in time", it is something that is inerrant in our being. The reason I come to this conclusion is because I believe that sin is the definition of "actions that do ourselves and others direct harm". For example, Cain killing his brother was sinful. God said to him, before the act occurred,

Interesting, I thought, that God doesn't consider "not doing what is right" a sin, but a pathway TO sin. This doesn't sound like a fundamentalist Santa-God, who's keeping a list and checking it twice. It sounds like a God who is a concerned observor, who allows us to be ourselves. He doesn't hesitate, however, to tell Cain that what he is doing IS wrong. He flat out tells him that his heart was not in the right place, and that he was on a course to destruction.

This, in my mind, is what religion is all about. Religion SHOULDN'T be about condemning people and making them feel like they are bad people. Religion should be simultaneously a warning, an assurance, a motivator, etc. Religion should emulate God, not define him.

Back to the main idea of the topic, God doesn't set the rules. We do. Why? Because we're the ones who KNOW what is right and what is wrong. We know, because the truth is in our bones. God is a loving parent who interferes when we are on a path to destruction. He slaps our hand away from a burning stove when we do not know that it is hot. He let's us KNOW that we are hurting ourselves. Does that sound like an arrogant God to you? You don't have to agree with me that this is the way that God is, but you have to admit that this concept of God is more palatable and, in my mind, certainly more Biblical. It's right there at the beginning of it all: "If you do what is right (in your heart, not your mind), will you not be accepted (by God)?"

What it boils down to is that anything done out of God's idea of love is acceptable to Him. Anything else is sin.

sandy whitelinger · Feb 24, 2009

Storm said:
Immediate thoughts:

1) No, very few people have that opinion of THE "concept of God".

I'd say almost everyone has a god concept. They differ though in concept.

sandy whitelinger · Feb 24, 2009

herushura said:
Lets see how may commandments jesus broke.

1. You shalt have no other god but me. (Jesus says he is god, people followed)

2.You shalt not take the Lords name in vain. (Eli Eli Why have you foresaken me)

3.Remember thou keep the Sabbath Day (He was caught breaking the rule)
And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man
for the sabbath:" (Mar 2:27)

4. Honor thy Father and thy Mother. (Matthew 12:46-49 Jesus was told in
the Synagogue that His mother and brothers were waiting for Him. Jesus said: Who is my mother? Who are my brothers?), Woman, what have I to do with thee?" (Joh 2:4)

5. Thou shalt not kill. (He killed, and ripped Judahs intestines out, he killed himself.)

6.Thou shalt not commit adultery. "Who knows", forgave a women who did. Jesus had 3 women, mary, mary cleopas, mary magdalene
book of phillip, magdalene his is wife

7. Thou shalf not stead (stole a donkey in luke 19,29,34)

8.Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor (Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?" (Mar 15:34))

Wow, the lengths some people will go to in order to justify their own unbelief. This reaches new heights. Congratulations.

9-10ths_Penguin · Feb 24, 2009

ayani said:
no, Heru. Judas humg Himself, and His intestines were spilled on a field. Jesus did not come and brutally murder anyone after His resurrection.

Out of curiosity, who do you think killed Ananais and Sephira in Acts 5? The account leaves it kinda open-ended.

ayani said:
secular speculation or disbelief may tell you that Moses himself could have written those commandments, but the Bible is clear that he did not. such speculation takes a Biblical event (the giving of the commandments on Sinai) and strips it of the very affirmed and central narrative thread (God's existence, guidance, and plan) which holds the entire tapestry together, and makes the stories worth telling.

Quite right. It is a Holy part of God's plan that we follow the Ten Commandments; it is only secular speculation or disbelief that could lead someone not to break the neck of a first-born donkey if it is not redeemed with a lamb, or not to keep the Feast of Weeks.

Does God create his "rules" or do we?

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