Argument from evil

Pah · Apr 13, 2005

Stolen verbatum from About Agnosticism / Atheism
http://atheism.about.com/b/a/158068.htm?nl=1

Does the Existence of Evil Disprove God?
One of the strongest and most popular arguments against the existence of God is the 'argument from evil.' According to this argument, the traditional God people believe in can't exist in a world with so much evil - either God would do something, or God can't be very good. Do you agree?

Jayhawker Soule · Apr 13, 2005

See The Riddle of Epicurus.

angellous_evangellous · Apr 13, 2005

IMHO, the existence of evil is a testimony to the goodness of God. From the Christian perspective, God created the world (perhaps by evolution, but that is a scientific question and not a theological one), and established a special relationship with us, giving us freewill and individuality. This freewill and individuality can be a communion with or a rebellion against the goodness of God or the righteousness of His purposes. He plans for the good but gives us the choice. Therefore, we can corrupt ourselves and others by doing evil, even of great magnitude because of our choice.

If we did not have the choice to do evil, we would not have the choice to do good. Because we have the choice to do evil, we have the choice to bring our corruption and decay onto the lives of others and bring evil uppon the innocent.

Freedom comes at great cost.

Thus, from the Christian POV, Epicureus or whover wrote the riddle was not referring to the God of the Hebrew Scriptures or Jesus, but his own reflection. God's power is not limited by the power of our intellect. Philosophy can only measure nature and cannot touch God. If he had used the NT as his source (or OT for that matter), the perameters of the riddle would be much different and consistent with God's revelation.

Pah · Apr 13, 2005

Deut. 32.8 said:
See The Riddle of Epicurus.

For those that didn't follow the link -

The Riddle of Epicurus

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

angellous_evangellous · Apr 13, 2005

The Riddle of Epicurus

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. He prevents when He chooses
Is he able, but not willing? Then he gave humanity freewill
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? He allows us to freely excercise freewill according to His judgements
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? He is self-existing. He tells us that He is God, and why He is able and unwilling. However, there are several times in the Scriptures where God intervenes and places limites on rebellion.

Jayhawker Soule · Apr 13, 2005

angellous_evangellous said:
The Riddle of Epicurus

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. He prevents when He chooses

Then he chooses what he does not prevent, from poverty to tsunami to holocaust.
He also chooses what he implements, from global biocide to the genocide of the Midianites to the murder of the first-born.

angellous_evangellous said:
Is he able, but not willing? Then he gave humanity freewill

Nonsense. In the context of this discussion, those comments are irrelevant at best and, at worst, a pathetic attempt to blame the victims. Talk to me about the free will of the tsnami and holocaust victims. Talk to me about the free will of the first-born.

angellous_evangellous said:
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? He allows us to freely excercise freewill according to His judgements

Rubbish. What judgements were in place when he allowed the victims of the tsunami to be torn apart alive by he force of debris? What judgements were in place when he allowed the victims of the holcaust to be tossed into mass graves?

angellous_evangellous said:
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God? He is self-existing. He tells us that He is God, and why He is able and unwilling.

blah ... blah ... blah :banghead3

michel · Apr 14, 2005

pah said:
Stolen verbatum from About Agnosticism / Atheism
http://atheism.about.com/b/a/158068.htm?nl=1

Does the Existence of Evil Disprove God?
One of the strongest and most popular arguments against the existence of God is the 'argument from evil.' According to this argument, the traditional God people believe in can't exist in a world with so much evil - either God would do something, or God can't be very good. Do you agree?

Without evil, there would be no God, and vice versa. The existence of evil Proves the existence of God; to every force there is an equal and opposite reaction; phisically and theologically . Newton's 3rd law.

Engyo · Apr 14, 2005

Buddhists have a different definition of evil; one which has nothing to do with deity. Evil is that which creates or adds to suffering of living beings. We all do a certain amount of evil every day; morality, and "proper living", consists of working to develop ourselves to the point where we each minimize this amount to the greatest extent possible.

linwood · Apr 14, 2005

to every force there is an equal and opposite reaction; phisically and theologically . Newton's 3rd law.

HEY!!

Don`t be taking such liberties with Newton like that!!

:tsk:

Engyo · Apr 14, 2005

linwood said:
to every force there is an equal and opposite reaction; phisically and theologically . Newton's 3rd law.

HEY!!

Don`t be taking such liberties with Newton like that!!

:tsk:

To a Buddhist, this is an illusion of duality; since all things are dependently co-arisen, this works on the level of physics, but not in terms of life and its functionality.

SportyAngel2oo6 · Apr 16, 2005

I agree with angelous,And for this to be a logical arugment it would have to be "evil disproves the existance of a good God." not necessarly God in general. But i believe that because evil and suffering exist, it really proves God's existance as a just and caring God. by allowing us to choose to make mistakes and do evil, he is honoring our freewill.

Jessica

Era · Apr 17, 2005

Epicurus`s argument is an interesting one wich does not prove God`s mercy . Because I don`t see any mercy in leting evil to exist and then judging people for their choices . But returning to the riddle , if you look close the first statement says everything : He is not omnipotent , by this he is not God . If we take the definition of God , the creator of universe , the complete Existence and Essence , then we must take him as the Perfection . So ,to be omnipotent means to be the Perfection . So he can not be God and he olso got a minus( he is melevolent). If we take out the existence of God , where do we stay ? Because the one who remains is the creator .

Pah · Apr 17, 2005

Moving to religious debates

Melody · Apr 17, 2005

pah said:
Stolen verbatum from About Agnosticism / Atheism
http://atheism.about.com/b/a/158068.htm?nl=1

Does the Existence of Evil Disprove God?
One of the strongest and most popular arguments against the existence of God is the 'argument from evil.' According to this argument, the traditional God people believe in can't exist in a world with so much evil - either God would do something, or God can't be very good. Do you agree?

No. Even evil can result in good.

fromthe heart · Apr 17, 2005

pah said:
Stolen verbatum from About Agnosticism / Atheism
http://atheism.about.com/b/a/158068.htm?nl=1

Does the Existence of Evil Disprove God?
One of the strongest and most popular arguments against the existence of God is the 'argument from evil.' According to this argument, the traditional God people believe in can't exist in a world with so much evil - either God would do something, or God can't be very good. Do you agree?

I would think it would prove God's exsistence even stronger as well as proving Satin is hard at work to pull God's humans as far from Him as possible.

robtex · Apr 17, 2005

Melody said:
No. Even evil can result in good.

The ends justify the means...now there is a thought process used to justify many a religous war.

Melody · Apr 17, 2005

robtex said:
The ends justify the means...now there is a thought process used to justify many a religous war.

No...meaning that even when *man* does evil things, God can make something good happen anyway.

painted wolf · Apr 17, 2005

In my faith there is ballance, for 'good' to exist there must be 'evil'. It is up to the individual to choose what road to walk. Sometimes you must step off the good Red Road and walk the Black road, but that is a choice you must make for yourself.
Things like natural disasters arn't evil, just as there are beautiful days there are bad ones as well. Disasters help shape the face of the Earth, eaven good things can come from them.
The Tsunami left behind massive deposits of Titanium in the silt that it deposited in India. I'm not saying that this compinsates for the loss of life just that no 'natural disaster' is ever entirely bad.

in the end however good and evil are primarily human constructs.

wa:do

michel · Apr 17, 2005

I don't subscribe to the Argument from evil, and the riddle of Epicurus is as full of holes as emmental cheese.

Without the presence of evil, there would be no choices for us to make; without choices, we would all only ever follow the 'good path', which would be a totally fruitless exercise. You must learn to make your choice; there's no shortcut.

Jayhawker Soule · Apr 17, 2005

michel said:
Without the presence of evil, there would be no choices for us to make;

Absurd. People make choices daily "without the presence of evil". Furthermore, by what tortured ethic do you justify the suffering of the victim on the grounds that the victor was able to exercise choice?

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