Accepting the gift of grace is not attempting to fool God. It's a gift! You can freely accept it or reject it.
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Do you go to hell if you commit suicide?
- Thread starter hannahrose1209
- Start date
Accepting the gift of grace is not attempting to fool God. It's a gift! You can freely accept it or reject it.
We're all going to hell because hell is nothing more than the grave. Will you get to take a dip in that pool of fire at the big BBQ for taking your own life? Ummmmmmm....
I agree with the other poster that said something about the "intent". That will, in my own opinion, have a large bit to do with it.
I agree with the other poster that said something about the "intent". That will, in my own opinion, have a large bit to do with it.
McBell
mantra-chanting henotheistic snake handler
Unless of course you accept the gift of grace "just in case"
Then it is in fact an attempt to fool God.
Do you think it will work?
HoldemDB9
Active Member
Pascals wager? Are you serious?!!!!
You seem to have forgot that there are hundreds of religions in the world, and since none of them can be proved, they are all equal. So if you are wrong about Christianity (and the odds are against you) then you could also be punished. How do you even know that God will reward believers? With regards to what the consequences are for being right or wrong, you are just as vulnerable as an Atheist.
I love how Christians like you put so much emphasis on being right. As long as your beliefs are correct, you will be saved right? Newsflash: whether or not your religious beliefs are correct is just sheer luck, since they are based on faith. God can only reward us on our effort to come to true beliefs, not on whether or not they were actually true.
Saying God rewards and punishes based on sheer luck (like you are saying) is another aspect of Christianity that I absolutely despise. I also wonder what God will think of how you Christians are portraying him to be.
Good luck with getting into heaven because your beliefs just happened to be right, LOL.
HoldemDB9
Active Member
I can also freely accept any of the other hundreds of religions in the world. What you are saying is what a lot of Christians who have not really looked into their beliefs say. You are saying that people will be rewarded for choosing to have faith in the religion that happens to be true, but people who have an equal amount of faith in a false religion (or no religion) will be punished because they happened to be wrong.
BucephalusBB
ABACABB
Unless God is fair and understands why some people don't believe in God.
Or, worse for you, the reason why God doesn't show up is because he is getting tired of a world based upon him. And thus you are working against him..
Besides, you can tell the world that you believe the world is a huge teletubby, but that doesn't mean you actually do... Wich would be the fooling Mestemia meant..
HoldemDB9
Active Member
Of course God would understand why people don't believe, what I don't understand is why most religions say that a belief in God is very important to God. Of course if they didn't say this, religion would most probably die out.
People who do not believe are not being stubborn, ignorant or intentionally rebellious. They just do not believe. There is nothing bad or incorrect about a non-belief in God whilst he has not been proven. And there is certainly nothing punish worthy about not believing.
Punishment for non belief in God is one thing, but punishment for not believing in a specific religion is just absolutely insane. There are very very intelligent and good people who are not Christian, and there are very dumb and not so good Christians. To say the Christians will be rewarded just for being right is disgusting.
I wonder why the Christians who believe in eternal punishment for non-belief never answer when I bring stuff like this up? :ignore:
sandy whitelinger
Veteran Member
Actually, the main problem with Pascal's wager is that it suffers from the fallacy of bifurcation. It only calculates with two options when there are, in fact, at least four alternatives: The christian God and afterlife, some other god and afterlife, atheism with afterlife, and atheism without afterlife.
This also then presents PW as another logical fallacy called a false dilemma.
Pascal's wager is invalid as an argument.
McBell
mantra-chanting henotheistic snake handler
I agree.
BUt so many Christians push it like drug dealers push drugs...
ayani
member
as a Christian, i know that God gave me life. and that He has given me new, spiritual life through His Son. i know that the goal of my life is to become more like Christ, walk closer with God in Him, to love the Lord with all my heart and soul and might, and love my neighbor as myself.
if i end my life, what am i saying to God? He gave me life, and my life is His to take, not my own. many Christians all over the world suffer terrible things for their faith, or more generally because of circumstance. the Apostle Paul suffered great trials in this life, and even expressed a wish for his life to end so that he'd be free of suffering, and nearer to Christ. yet he remained alive for the sake of the Gospel, that even one more person might be able to hear of God's Son, and be saved.
ideally, that should be my attitude as well. and trust that God can and will bring me through anything He sees fit, and end my life by His own hand when the time is right.
that said, i don't know if suicide will send a Christian to hell. but this article struck me as insightful, and thoughtful.
if i end my life, what am i saying to God? He gave me life, and my life is His to take, not my own. many Christians all over the world suffer terrible things for their faith, or more generally because of circumstance. the Apostle Paul suffered great trials in this life, and even expressed a wish for his life to end so that he'd be free of suffering, and nearer to Christ. yet he remained alive for the sake of the Gospel, that even one more person might be able to hear of God's Son, and be saved.
ideally, that should be my attitude as well. and trust that God can and will bring me through anything He sees fit, and end my life by His own hand when the time is right.
that said, i don't know if suicide will send a Christian to hell. but this article struck me as insightful, and thoughtful.
With an equal amount of success.
McBell
mantra-chanting henotheistic snake handler
You must have a different definition of "success" than me.
Or perhaps you believe God to be an idiot easily fooled by the "just in case" argument.
BucephalusBB
ABACABB
2 things..
First, if you were to give a good friend a new TV, after that, would it be yours to destroy or his?
second, if you then find out that he really really really hates that tv, would you rather have that he would remove it or keep it just to please you?
HoldemDB9
Active Member
Really? People convert to Christianity after hearing Pascals wager? I know Christians use it a lot, but I disagree that it is successful. I mean you would have to be really, really dumb to actually be converted because of Pascals wager.
And if they do convert because of an invalid argument then you can hardly call it a success can you. You think God will favour stupid people who follow Pascals wager over intelligent people who say its a pile of bs? You think God would favour someone who went to a hypnotists and made themselves Christian over someone who actually tried for themselves? I actually would not be surprised if you believed this.
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Comet
Harvey Wallbanger
For those who think that we do go to hell by committing suicide:
If God gave us life and free will, why are we punished for the gifts given? By the TV arguement above, he'd be (excuse the term) an "indian giver". He gave it so only HE can take it back?
Also, do attempted suicides go to hell to? Why or why not? Thanks
I've never completely understood. I know one of our old pastor said so.
What about this verse?
If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
I have no clue, really.
Well Jacob, you have presented hope for the person who has committed suicide.
Only God knows what is in a person's heart.
2 Timothy 2-12 KJV
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: IF WE DENY HIM, HE ALSO WILL DENY US.
2 Timothy 2-13 Amplified
If we are faithless (do not believe and are untrue to Him), He remains true [faithful to His word and His righteous character], for He cannot deny himself.
2 Timothy 2-13 New International
if we are faithless, he will remain faithful. for he cannot disown himself.
OK, here is my take on this, Faithless describes the life of an immature believer who lives for oneself and not for the Savior. The Lord remains faithful even when the believer fails him. So one still has hope even if they commit suicide.
I hate to read to much into this verse however. The context here is Paul is passing the torch on to Timothy, one generation to another. He is teaching him to watch who he associates with and to stay on the straight and narrow.
It is not for us to judge and all things are possible with our Lord and Savior, but suicide is pushing the envelope. This verse offers hope however and gives us pause and not rush to judgement on the subject.
Good job Jacob! Great verse to consider.
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ayani
member
well, it depends on how you see your relationship to God. if one imagines Him to be an abstract giver of life, who is there, judgemental, and generally inaccesable to us, i can understand your view. if one warily contrasts human free will with His design, i can also understand your view.
yet if you kow Him, love Him, and want to live for Him, that view shifts. it's no longer a matter of "You gave me this life and the freedom to choose, so why can't i do what i want with it?" but rather "you've given me life, i am thankful, and i will wait upon your help and guidance".
yet if you kow Him, love Him, and want to live for Him, that view shifts. it's no longer a matter of "You gave me this life and the freedom to choose, so why can't i do what i want with it?" but rather "you've given me life, i am thankful, and i will wait upon your help and guidance".
McBell
mantra-chanting henotheistic snake handler
I still say it depends upon how big a prude you think your God is.
ayani
member
prudery is defined as being excessivly concerned with matters of uprightness and correctness.
i would counter that God, being of His nature righteous, omnisciently discerning, holy, and above His creation can *not* exhibit an excess in these qualities.