Why can't sin be pardoned without requiring sacrifice?

Ben Masada said:

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So, Father Heathen,

Jesus came the first time as a Savior? Then, what did he save? Or should I ask: Whom did he save? He couldn't save even himself from the cross. In what sense did he save anyone else? The world has become worse than at the time he came to save it. What did he do then? Now, we have to wait for his return. When Paul started preaching about his return, he would say that Jesus would soon come back. It has been almost two thousand years. How soon is soon? The word is faith to keep the fish hooked on to the bait.

Ben

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:biglaugh: Do you really think Heathen cares one way or another, Now do ya?

Sorry Heathen, just couldn't pass up the opportunity for a laugh.....Give them your words of wisdom........How soon is soon? ***slaps knees and laughs again***

We have sort of veered off topic, but feel free to answer, go ahead make my day!

Charity said:

God has everything to do with the sins of the people. What has the natural disasters got to to with sin being pardoned and sacrifice? There have been natural disasters for hundreds of years. If we have only ourselves to blame how about the disasters that occur where they have never been before? Were these people suppose to just assume that "well, sooner or later we may have a disaster here so let's just jump up and move somewhere" That is ridiculous thinking. The people who were working or in the area of the Trade Center on that fateful morning, are they responsible for their own death, because they should have known that sooner or later some tragedy just might befall them?

Once again what does this have to do with the OP?

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That's about your question on what happened at the Trade Center disaster. No Charity, they are not responsible for their own death, neiter is God. The responsibility for what happened on that day rests upon the Terrorist Arabs. But those who were killed that day were unfortunate to be on the wrong place at the wrong time. That's all. The point I am trying to prove is that we cannot blame God for anything that happens to us. That's what I mean by God having nothing to do with human suffering. I hope you got me this time.

Ben

Ben Masada said:

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That's about your question on what happened at the Trade Center disaster. No Charity, they are not responsible for their own death, neiter is God. The responsibility for what happened on that day rests upon the Terrorist Arabs. But those who were killed that day were unfortunate to be on the wrong place at the wrong time. That's all. The point I am trying to prove is that we cannot blame God for anything that happens to us. That's what I mean by God having nothing to do with human suffering. I hope you got me this time.

Ben

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This still has nothing to do with sin and pardon without sacrifice....But thank you anyway................

Hello Charity,

In response to your statement, "People tend to question that if God is all-powerful and all-loving, then why does He not pardon sin just out of His mercy?", I would point out that these are indeed attributes of God. He is "all-powerful" and loving. However, according to the Bible, another attribute of God is holiness. Before defining holiness, it is important that "sin" is defined. Sin is ". . . any failure to conform to the moral law of God in act, attitude, or nature" (Systematic Theology, Wayne Grudem, 490)

Now, holiness may be defined as ". . . he [God] is separated from sin and devoted to seeking his own honor" (Systematic Theology, Wayne Grudem, 201). Defining sin and holiness is important because when one talks about mercy, it generally is in response to a wrong committed. The Bible says that all have sinned (Romans 3:23). Meaning all human beings have sinned against the holy God or have committed many wrongs against God.

One could compare the punishment of sin to the way the United States punishes crimes in its judicial system today. In a court of law, if one commits a crime, such as theft or murder, one has broken the law and one is required to be punished in order for justice to be served. Now, would a judge in the judicial system be righteous if he or she lets thieves and murders go free for crimes they have committed? No. In the same way, God cannot let anyone who sins against Him be excused from their sin. That individual has broken God 's law and it would be unrighteous for God to allow someone to go unpunished for sins he or she has committed.

The reason a sacrifice for sins is needed is because unless someone is punished on a sinner's behalf that person will have to be punished. Therefore, the need for Jesus dying on the cross is clear: If He would not have died for those who place their faith in Him all would have to receive the punishment of eternal hell and the wrath of God forever. Though more may be said about this, I want to know if this all makes sense to you. God bless.

In Jesus Christ,

ONEWAY

Why does "sin" need to be forgiven by some supernatural being?

logician said:

Why does "sin" need to be forgiven by some supernatural being?

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Should I start forgiving people who sinned against you?

Jeremy Mason said:

Should I start forgiving people who sinned against you?

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:bow: Oh Supernatural Jeremy, what a joy you are................

In Baha'i Faith we don't use the term sin very much.

PArt of the reason for this may be that focusing on sin so much can lead to depravity and depression.

Other than the person you've wronged let's say no other human can truly forgive what you've done.

Many carry their sins with them a long time and like a laundry list recite them to themselves long after the events which they are let's say ashamed of...

Psychologically most people in my experience think a lot less of themselves for what they've done and some "beat themselves up" for that..

Now God is Merciful and Compassionate

No God is there but Thee, the Mighty, the Ever-Forgiving

and

the bestowals of thy Lord, the Forgiving, have encompassed all things.

and turning to God in prayer and asking to be forgiven is a practise in religions like Judaism, Christianity and Islam and the Baha'i Faith, but a "sacrifice" is not required... this is what Jesus tried to convey I believe at the Temple when He drove out the money changers and sellers of doves and so on for sacrifice.

Here is a Baha'i prayer asking for forgiveness:

O God, my God! Have mercy then upon my helpless state, my poverty, my misery, my abasement! Give me to drink from the generous cup of Thy grace and forgiveness, stir me with the sweet scents of Thy love, gladden my bosom with the light of Thy knowledge, purify my soul with the mysteries of Thy oneness, raise me to life with the gentle breeze that cometh from the gardens of Thy mercy -- till I sever myself from all else but Thee, and lay hold of the hem of Thy garment of grandeur, and consign to oblivion all that is not Thee

(Abdu'l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha, p. 4)

Charity said:

People tend to question that if God is all-powerful and all-loving, then why does He not pardon sin just out of His mercy? Most skeptics go by the assumption that if He created the world, could He not redeem it as easily?

God commands man to forgive freely, why does He not freely forgive?
If God did not punish sin would that be " just" for those who are free from sin because they have asked for forgiveness for their transgressions. Should we not be punished for our sins? Can sin be forgiven without requiring sacrifice?

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You're assuming that God is as you see Him. Be a little more open-minded. I believe you may be over-thinking it just a bit. God is not ruthless from what I have gathered. He is kind, gentle, and willing to help anyone who will simply want to help themselves.

And as far as I can tell, a deity is not genrally hypocritical.

"God will feed anyone, so long as they are not already full of themselves."
-Anonymous.

Javelin said:

You're assuming that God is as you see Him. Be a little more open-minded. I believe you may be over-thinking it just a bit. God is not ruthless from what I have gathered. He is kind, gentle, and willing to help anyone who will simply want to help themselves.

And as far as I can tell, a deity is not genrally hypocritical.

"God will feed anyone, so long as they are not already full of themselves."
-Anonymous.

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I'm not over thinking it at all, This isn't even my opinion it is based on an article I read in a magazine. I just used it for the point of discussion. Don't assume that when someone writes an OP that it is their personal experience or belief. I think most people on the forum who know me, know that I am very open minded and willing to listen. You still didn't answer the question, why can't sin be pardoned without requiring sacrifice?

It says in the bible that if you ask the Lord for forgiveness, then you shall receive it. For it also says that if you believe in the Lord God, then you merely need to ask for His help and you shall receive it e.g. You may need the strength to fight a virus that you've picked up.

It does not say in the Holy Scriptures that you need to sacrifice anything, but I agree with the notion that if you give up the sin in question, then you have learnt from your mistake, and you will truly be forgiven.

I believe that it is as Jesus said,

"Knock, and the door shall be opened."

Jayell said:

A thousand years is as one day to the Lord (2 Peter 3:8)
You should read the 3rd chapter of 2 Peter, it answers your position perfectly! Many were saying, "WHERE IS THE PROMISE OF HIS COMING" ( v.3)
That day will come as a thief in the night (v.10). God is holding back that terrible day to allow mankind to repent and trust in Christ (v.9).

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Well, as I can see, there is just one thing faith can't achieve, it's knowledge. But to
wait all one's life and the lives of generation after generation for the return of the
dead one needs a lot of faith.

Disraeli, a former British Prime Minister once said that "Where faith begins, knowledge ends." It means that faith is the opposite of knowledge. Since Hosea says
that "People perish for lack of knowledge," those who live by faith must inhabit the
realm of the dead.

Ben:clap

Jeremy Mason said:

Should I start forgiving people who sinned against you?

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What' this have to do with the question?

logician said:

What' this have to do with the question?

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Quote:
Originally Posted by logician
Why does "sin" need to be forgiven by some supernatural being?

God is the only one who can forgive sins that were committed against someone else. Now, one could argue that any sin is a sin against God , but that another issue. My point was I can't do that; we need a supernatural being, ie God to forgive us of our sins.

Can anyone honestly and truthfully say that they have the divine powers to cleanse and purify their immortal soul. God needs to pardon everyone from their sins because He has the divinity to cleanse and purge those sins from the soul of the individual.

:candle:

Jeremy Mason said:

Do you sin?

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Excellent question. No, I do not sin. Nor have I. I spent many years struggling with the concept, as I grew up in such an environment. Once I realized (awakened) that Genesis was not factual and therefore Original Sin non-existent, I became aware that there was no such thing as "sin".

Sin was created by men to control men via self-loathing.

Although, I do not sin, that does not mean that I do not have my own moral code, however.

tkdrocks said:

Excellent question. No, I do not sin. Nor have I.
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Hello! I really want to know what you call your mishaps then.

Jayell said:

Hello! I really want to know what you call your mishaps then.

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I would call them character flaws. They are not something that I require "atonement" for, however. I do not have a Diety counting this as a mark against me requiring forgiveness.

It all boils down to one rule in life. Treat others as you want to be treated. Yes, this is a new testament concept. However, the concept predates that by many centuries.

Stated another way, do no harm unto others. If I lie or misrepresent myself, I have damaged my reputation and require forgiveness from the one that I deceived. Repeated infractions of this type will result in a lowered standing of my reputation.

I do not kill someone not because a book told me not to. I would not want to be killed or have someone in my family hurt or killed, so likewise, I would not want to cause pain or damage to another.

I do not steal as I do not appreciate having things stolen from me. I do not have sex outside of marriage as I would not appreciate my wife having sex out of marriage. However, if a couple agrees that extra-marital sex is a normal part of their relationship, neither party is hurt by that.

And so it continues. Note, I do not have a problem with working on the sabbath or eating pork or any other man-controlling rule as they are not part of my moral code.

tkdrocks said:

Excellent question. No, I do not sin. Nor have I. I spent many years struggling with the concept, as I grew up in such an environment. Once I realized (awakened) that Genesis was not factual and therefore Original Sin non-existent, I became aware that there was no such thing as "sin".

Sin was created by men to control men via self-loathing.

Although, I do not sin, that does not mean that I do not have my own moral code, however.

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Ok, have you ever broken your moral code?

Jeremy Mason said:

Ok, have you ever broken your moral code?

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Of course. But that is not sin according to my definition. I make amends as necessary.