Do you think God wanted Adam to stay in Eden?

MidnightBlue said:

I think the tree, like the tree of life, was there for God's own use. Adam and Eve were supposed to tend the garden and not ask questions. The serpent came along and liberated them, and then everybody had to suffer God's wrath. Re-writers came along later and took God's side.

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It's fun just thinking stuff up, isn't it?

I took the shotgun approach: I voted for everything that didn't strike me as obviously wrong.

I think Adam & Eve might well be allegory or parable, though God is very real. That doesn't really change anything, since the story would still be the best possible illustration of the test Man was given and failed, and the point remains the same.

tomspug said:

Actually, my theory isn't on the list of choices. The way I see it, if Adam and Eve had been obedient, God probably would have eventually taught them knowledge of good and evil in his own time. I also believe that God intended them to eventually leave the garden by His own will and procreate.

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Ringer said:

I think the whole reason for the Tree to be in Eden was because God wanted to test them. Adam and Eve were both like God in that they were without sin. However, this nature was never confirmed. For all we know, if Adam and Eve have passed the test, the tree could have been banished and no other scenario would have been presented to Adam and Eve to cause a fall.

I don't follow why people say that the fall was necessary so that they could know good and evil. They would have known good and evil, just not their version of it. In essence, when they ate the fruit of the tree, they were calling God a liar and put their ways above God's. Was this a surprise to God? Of course not. I'm a trinitarian so I think of the scenario going something like:

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These two scenarios seem most likely to me.

tomspug said:

The way I see it, if Adam and Eve had been obedient, God probably would have eventually taught them knowledge of good and evil in his own time.

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That would be an "IF" type of answer. Speculation on what could have happened.

God might have taught them. But then again he didn't, since knowing good and bad, would make them like gods.

Eden could be seen as a limited area, but it could also be seen as a symbol for the whole earth, governed by God. In any case, I don't think there would have been a problem with over-population if Adam and Eve had not fallen. I believe the death that came as a result of the fall was spiritual death, and that humans were always intended to die physically. Spiritual death would mean separation from the love of God, due to our relationship to Satan. For instance, in Luke 9:60 Jesus said "Leave the dead the bury their own dead", meaning, let those who are spiritually dead bury those who have died physically. Another good reference to that is Revelations 3:1, where Jesus, speaking the Christians in the church at Sardis, said "You have the name of being alive, and you are dead."

Even if people could live physically forever, more important is whether people are alive spiritually. Eternal physical life without spiritual life could only be called eternal hell on earth.

gnostic said:

Do you think God wanted Adam to stay in Eden? Do you think God really didn't want them to eat the fruit? Do you think it was unavoidable?

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gnostic,
When God first created Adam He told Adam what His purpose was for the earth, Gen 1:26-28. Notice that after God created Adam and Eve He told them what to do. God said to multiply and ill the earth and subdue it and have in subjection all the animals.
Adam and Eve were to extend the Garden throughout the entire earth, making the earth a paradise.
Adam and Eve had not sinned against God they would have continued to be perect, and would never have died. The earth would have been filled with righteous people, living forever in a paradise.
Consider what God had Isaiah to write, Isa 45:18.
Consider what was written in Ps 37:29. This prophecy will still come true, but will be completed by billions of people being brought back in a resurrection, John 5:28,29, Acts 24:15.
In theology this is called Covenant Theology, and is the idea that all men who have faith in the ransom sacrifice of Jesus will receive the same promises that Adam and Eve would have received, if they had not sinned against God.
When God states a purpose NOTHING can thwart the fulfillment of that purpose, Isa 55:11, 14:24, 46:9-11.
God did not and could not have wanted them to eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and bad. Remember, God warned Adam NOT to eat of the tree, Gen 2:15-17.
Another term in theology is CONCURSUS, which means that God was protecting Adam from any wrong action, that could have been dangerous to him, as long as he looked to God to decide what was right and wrong or him.
The tree of the knowledge of good and bad actually was the accepting by Adam,as to what was good and bad, as decided by God. Adam knew that doing anything against God was BAD.

gnostic said:

I don't believe the Creation story to be real, thus a myth or allegory.

But viewing this from perspective of how it was written in the narrative, I have come to the conclusion that God wanted them to leave the garden in order to populate the world, and they can't do this while living in Eden, and in order to do this, they must learn how to toil, working for their food.

Therefore, I believe that this deity put the fruit there, in the middle of the Garden, where he knew they would eat the fruit, regardless of what warning he gave them about eating it.

If God had being really serious about not wanting them to sin or to eat the fruit, he would not have put the tree there.

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gnostic,
The story of the creation of Adam and Eve is a factual story.
Let's consider a few thing that prove the story of Adam and Eve.
Consider Gen 2:7, where God created Adam from the dust of the ground. When we die we return to the dust of the ground, Gen 3:19. Science has proved that we are made of the material of the earth. Notice that God caused Adam to fall into a deep sleep and removed a rib from Adam and made Eve. They would be perfectly suited for each other. They would be able, just as God told them, to multiply and fill the earth. If God had not created both male and female, it would have been impossible to carry out God's purpose for the earth. Science knows that homoplasy would be totally impossible. A male and female would have to evolve in parallel until full maturity to be able to reproduce. Totally impossible!!!
Another reason to believe Genesis is because Jesus backed up what God had written, Gen 2:21-24, Matt 19:4-6.
Consider that God created Adam and Eve in His own image, Gen 1:26-28. This means they had the same attributes as God, justice, wisdom, power and love, but of course not to the absolute, as with God Almighty. It is a fact that none of the other creations on earth were made in God's image.
Consider Luke 3:23-38, where we see recorded the geneological tree back to God, the Father of Adam.
Paul also gave evidence of Adam being a real man, Rom 5:12. Here we have explained to us just why sin and death is in the world today. Verse 13 says that Adam had a likeness to Jesus, meaning they were both perfect men, the only perfect men to live on earth, 1Cor 15:45.
Science has been able to follow the geneology of man and they know that men came from one set of parents. This is called Monogenism. Acts 17:26-28 also states this principle.
There is also another law of nature that cannot be changed either invivo or invitro, the law that everything created will reproduce ONLY after it's own KIND, called PRESTABILISM.

sandy whitelinger said:

It's fun just thinking stuff up, isn't it?

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Yeah, but I really think that's what it's about. Read the story. The people who came up with the stories in Genesis didn't think God was the Almighty, All-Knowing, All-Wise God you believe in. Their God was just another pagan god. He walked among humans, he ate, he changed his mind, got mad, boasted, worried about humans getting powerful enough to challenge him, and generally didn't behave at all like the transcendent yet immanent Deity he later became.

Why was the tree of life there, if not for God's use? He didn't want the humans eating from it. Why was the tree of knowledge there, if not for God's use? He didn't want the humans eating from it.

What were the humans doing in the garden?What happened in the story? God lied, the serpent told the truth, the humans got increased understanding, and God (when he found out) got ticked off and punished everybody. The serpent is another Prometheus, and Yahweh is another Zeus.

Adam and Eve didn't sin in this story. How could they? They had no knowledge of good and evil. Sin only comes after the forbidden fruit. The story never mentions sin, much less original sin. Original sin, as elucidated by Augustine and by Western theologians after him, is a crock. It's foreign to Judaism; it's foreign to Eastern Christianity. Christians, and especially Western Christians, have saddled this story with an interpretation that would have amazed the people who first told it.

midnight_blue said:

Adam and Eve didn't sin in this story. How could they? They had no knowledge of good and evil. Sin only comes after the forbidden fruit. The story never mentions sin, much less original sin. Original sin, as elucidated by Augustine and by Western theologians after him, is a crock.

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That's precisely my view.

If you can't tell the difference between good and bad, how can Eve possibly tell that the serpent was lying about the fruit. How can she possibly be held accountable for being duped.

There are also no mentions of spiritual death. There are no emphasis or subtle hints of spiritual death. The Jewish scholars involved with writing the Talmud make no interpretation of spiritual death in connection of the Adam and Eve story.

Spiritual death is only Christian interpretations to the Genesis.

tomspug said:

Actually, my theory isn't on the list of choices. The way I see it, if Adam and Eve had been obedient, God probably would have eventually taught them knowledge of good and evil in his own time.

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that's absurd.

gnostic said:

Do you think God wanted Adam to stay in Eden? Do you think God really didn't want them to eat the fruit? Do you think it was unavoidable?

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If we can start off with the premise(s) that God is omniscient, omnipotent, all loving, and "has a plan for us all" (which I have heard from many a believer) then I think the only logical conclusion is that Adam and Eve did everything that God planned for them to do, as has every person since then.

If people are doing something God doesn't want them to do, then that presents us a serious problem, does it not? It means that either he lacks the power to keep them from doing that wrong thing (thus no omnipotence) or that he allows people to do bad, and that those acts are a part of his plan, (thus chinking the armor of "all loving") or, perhaps some other option I have not thought of.

In any respect, if you go with the assumptions of the first line of my first paragraph, then there aren't any villains in human history, as everything happens because God wants it to happen that way, and who are you or I to question God's plan? If anything ever happened, then it must have happened because God in his infinite knowledge and power planned for it to have happened that way, and if it came from God's good plan, then that thing, whether it be Nick Berg getting his head sawed off while he was still alive, or whether that thing be the first flower of spring, all things are good.

Frankly, I don't see how anyone could look at the world this way, but fail to see any other way a person who ascribes to God omnipotence, omniscience, omni-love, and having a plan, would be able to rationally look at the world.

B.

MdmSzdWhtGuy said:

If we can start off with the premise(s) that God is omniscient, omnipotent, all loving, and "has a plan for us all" (which I have heard from many a believer) then I think the only logical conclusion is that Adam and Eve did everything that God planned for them to do, as has every person since then.

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That's interesting.

MdmSzdWhtGuy said:

If people are doing something God doesn't want them to do, then that presents us a serious problem, does it not? It means that either he lacks the power to keep them from doing that wrong thing (thus no omnipotence) or that he allows people to do bad, and that those acts are a part of his plan, (thus chinking the armor of "all loving") or, perhaps some other option I have not thought of.

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That's even more interesting logic.

Either way, I don't like it. But at least with the 2nd one is more understandable, because he would be as flawed as any human, which is how I see this Abrahamic deity.