For whom did Christ die?

[Special Revelation]

For whom did Christ die for?

I just received confirmation that Sojourner is a Christian Universalist. I believe that means that Christ’s saving work applies to all sinners, regardless of personal faith in Christ. If I’m incorrect SJ, please correct me.

Many Christians are semi-Pelagius and believe that Christ died for the entire world. However, to apply the work of Christ on the sinners behalf, you have to accept Christ into your heart to be reconciled to God and be saved.

Augustinian Christians believe that Christ died for the elect of God. The work of Christ could have saved the entire world, but it was only intended to save a specific group of sinners

For whom did Christ die for?

1. All humanity will be reconciled to God… unconditionally and without personal faith in Christ. Sojourner will need to help us understand this universal position.

2. Christ died for all, but the only people that will be saved are those who accept Christ into their hearts. This is called unlimited atonement.

3. Christ died for only those specific sinners whom God chose before the foundations of the world, (the elect of God). This is called particular atonement, or limited atonement.

 

[doppelganger]

Nobody. We are called to die for Christ. You have it backwards.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Nobody. We are called to die for Christ. You have it backwards.

Don't hate the playa, hate the game.

 

[doppelganger]

Don't hate the playa, hate the game.

There is no playa to hate.

 

[wizanda]

Nobody. We are called to die for Christ. You have it backwards.

Agree do unto other as you wish done unto your self.....so we say its ok to sacrifice; God is going to sacrifice us....

 

[sojourner]

For whom did Christ die for?

I just received confirmation that Sojourner is a Christian Universalist. I believe that means that Christ’s saving work applies to all sinners, regardless of personal faith in Christ. If I’m incorrect SJ, please correct me.

Many Christians are semi-Pelagius and believe that Christ died for the entire world. However, to apply the work of Christ on the sinners behalf, you have to accept Christ into your heart to be reconciled to God and be saved.

Augustinian Christians believe that Christ died for the elect of God. The work of Christ could have saved the entire world, but it was only intended to save a specific group of sinners

For whom did Christ die for?

1. All humanity will be reconciled to God… unconditionally and without personal faith in Christ. Sojourner will need to help us understand this universal position.

2. Christ died for all people, but the only people that will be saved are those who accept Christ into their hearts. This is called unlimited atonement.

3. Christ died for only those specific sinners whom God chose before the foundations of the world, (the elect of God). This is called particular atonement, or limited atonement.

All humanity has been reconciled to God through the Incarnation.

No. The efficacy of the reconciliation is not predicated upon what we do. Grace is unconditional, or it isn't grace.

"Elect" runs contrary to the concept of Christianity. Christianity is not an "elect" group of people. It is a group of people who understand that, because of the Incarnation, all have been reconciled.

1) God created all of us. God is love, and desires a relationship with each of us. God would not create something that God would destine to be lost forever. God always gets God's way. There are many scriptural references to back this up:

Gen. 12:3, Job 42:2, Psalm 22:27, Psalm 65:1-2, Psalm 139:7-8, Psalm 145:8-10,
Is. 25:6-8, Is. 45:22-24, Jer. 31:33-34, Joel 2:28, Zeph. 3:9, Matt. 12:50,
Matt. 18:14, Luke 3:6, Luke 15:4, Luke 15:8, Luke 19:10, John 1:9, John 3:17, John 10:16, John 12:32, John 12:47, John 15:16, Acts 3:21, Acts 10:34-35, Rom. 3:23-24, Rom. 5:18, Rom. 8:38-39, Rom. 11:32, I Cor. 13:4-8, I Cor. 15:22, II Cor. 5:18-19, Phil. 2:10-11, Col. 1:19-20, I Tim. 2:3-4, I Tim. 4:9-10, Titus 2:11, 2 Pet. 3:9,
Rev. 5:13

2) How can atonement be "unlimited" if it is limited by our acceptance of it???

3) This runs counter to the passages I provided. God is not love if God created many to be lost forever.

 

[SoyLeche]

For whom did Christ die for?

Did one of those "for"s come from the department of redundancy department?

(sorry, couldn't resist - carry on)

 

[angellous_evangellous]

For whom did Christ die for?

1. All humanity will be reconciled to God… unconditionally and without personal faith in Christ. Sojourner will need to help us understand this universal position.

2. Christ died for all, but the only people that will be saved are those who accept Christ into their hearts. This is called unlimited atonement.

3. Christ died for only those specific sinners whom God chose before the foundations of the world, (the elect of God). This is called particular atonement, or limited atonement.

I don't think that Christians (at least until the late 4th century, which is my speciality) believed any of these options. The dominant belief among the proto-orthodox Christians who wrote and preserved the New Testament and the writings of the apostolic and church fathers, developed the doctrine of the Trinity and divinity of Christ, and produced the earliest and later creeds, was different.

Their belief, as far as it is unified, is that Christ died for everyone and God's salvation was affected according to God's righteous and perfect judgment. God shows no favoritism: the resurrection of Christ is the instrument by which salvation is freely available to all people, and it is made effective by God's choice in the lives of people as they do good works. Everyone - believer and unbeliever - will be judged according to their deeds by God and saved through Christ as God chooses.

It's not universalism, and it's not Calvinism.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

There is no playa to hate.

What am I, chopped liver?

 

[doppelganger]

What am I, chopped liver?

You are a magister, like me. Not a playa.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

You are a magister, like me. Not a playa.

By far the sexiest figment of your imagination.

 

[sojourner]

I don't think that Christians (at least until the late 4th century, which is my speciality) believed any of these options. The dominant belief among the proto-orthodox Christians who wrote and preserved the New Testament and the writings of the apostolic and church fathers, developed the doctrine of the Trinity and divinity of Christ, and produced the earliest and later creeds, was different.

Their belief, as far as it is unified, is that Christ died for everyone and God's salvation was affected according to God's righteous and perfect judgment. God shows no favoritism: the resurrection of Christ is the instrument by which salvation is freely available to all people, and it is made effective by God's choice in the lives of people as they do good works. Everyone - believer and unbeliever - will be judged according to their deeds by God and saved through Christ as God chooses.

It's not universalism, and it's not Calvinism.

I would only add to that the statement that it is God's desire that all be in relationship with God, and that God will ultimately get God's way.

 

[doppelganger]

By far the sexiest figment of your imagination.

What can I say? Sometimes the truth doesn't hurt.

 

[wizanda]

Mat 18:32-35
(32) Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
(33) Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
(34) And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
(35) So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

Luk 16:5-7
(5) So he called every one of his lord's debtors unto him, and said unto the first, How much owest thou unto my lord?
(6) And he said, An hundred measures of oil. And he said unto him, Take thy bill, and sit down quickly, and write fifty.
(7) Then said he to another, And how much owest thou? And he said, An hundred measures of wheat. And he said unto him, Take thy bill, and write fourscore.

 

[MaddLlama]

As far as I can tell, Christ came to die for everyone, regardless of whether or not a person accepts that sacrafice, and it's whether or not you choose to accept it that determines whether or not you get into heaven. It makes no logical or Biblical sense to say "Christ came to die for the elect".

And, for that matter, I think that the whole idea of an "elect" is biblical nonsense - it betrays the entire message of the Bible. It's a man made idea, whos purpose is to lift up man's ego and pride. Where do you think a doctrine with that sort of function comes from?

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

All humanity has been reconciled to God through the Incarnation.

No. The efficacy of the reconciliation is not predicated upon what we do. Grace is unconditional, or it isn't grace.

"Elect" runs contrary to the concept of Christianity. Christianity is not an "elect" group of people. It is a group of people who understand that, because of the Incarnation, all have been reconciled.

1) God created all of us. God is love, and desires a relationship with each of us. God would not create something that God would destine to be lost forever. God always gets God's way. There are many scriptural references to back this up:

I agree with all that, it is most logical.
Some seem to prefer the Idea there are winners and losers in God's love.
and that there is some magical formulae that "saves" them.

I actually dislike the concept of being "Saved".... the whole Idea seems to bring out the most un- Christ like side in people.

No one can possibly be saved before they die, or there would be no purpose for Judgement. Potentially all our sins are forgiven; but it is still up to us to have faith and repent to the last. we are not capable of remaining sin free in our lives.

 

[wizanda]

Help this is pure insanity, why wont people listen…..
He died to cut of inheritance and grace (Zechariah 11 + parable of the vine dressers son) and already acts as an intercessor, that means passing on the message to the judge, not taking it....
"repentance for the forgiveness of sins"........
Zechariah again they will shout “grace, Grace unto the plummet stone”, and “many will fall on this”....come on its not that complicated; even if we have all been brainwashed....:angel2:

 

[kmkemp]

This thread makes me sad. There are mountains and mountains of passages that describe hell and spell out what "saves" someone. You can deny them on false philosophical grounds if you want, but God is very clear concerning this matter. The only way you could possibly believe that all are going to heaven is if you are twisting God's words and ignoring all of His others. There are many issues that I think could be up in the air, but if you truly believe the Bible, there is absolutely no way you can believe that everyone is going to heaven and not be taking away from the Word of God. And I think we all know what it says about people that do that.

 

[doppelganger]

You can deny them on false philosophical grounds if you want, but God is very clear concerning this matter. The only way you could possibly believe that all are going to heaven is if you are twisting God's words and ignoring all of His others.

I used to think this way, too. There's no way I can change your mind about, so I'm not going to try. But for myself, I will say that if the Bible could only be interpreted to support this nightmarish vision of reality, I would be curious about it, but as a spiritual text, I would just chuck it in the nearest trash can.

 

[sojourner]

This thread makes me sad. There are mountains and mountains of passages that describe hell and spell out what "saves" someone. You can deny them on false philosophical grounds if you want, but God is very clear concerning this matter. The only way you could possibly believe that all are going to heaven is if you are twisting God's words and ignoring all of His others. There are many issues that I think could be up in the air, but if you truly believe the Bible, there is absolutely no way you can believe that everyone is going to heaven and not be taking away from the Word of God. And I think we all know what it says about people that do that.

God's love is conditional? God's grace is conditional? God created many whom God knew would be destined for eternal hell? I've read the Bible most of my life. I believe the truth contained therein. I find accounts of God's wrath, yes. But mostly I find that wrath to be mitigated wrath. In your vision of the Biblical world, there is no hope and no reason. but believe that vision if you want. I choose not to.