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What does Islam say about human rights?

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Salam

(1) "Human rights" is a subset of rights of humans, sounds weird but it refers to rights of humans pertaining to what should be held or enforced by the government in abstract form while there will be particular applications of it that can differ given situation and circumstances.

(2) Given that this is a very logical thing to hold that there is rights in that category, and are important to deal with, if Islam is silent about the issue, then it fails to guide humanity in one of the more important issues.

(3) Human rights issues interlocks with other issues such as economical models, socialism vs capitalism, poverty, disability rights, as well as political issues and how it can be weaponized for colonialism, gender issues, and sex is also related to it. I will expand as we go in this thread.

I'm holding the definition has to be found in Islam in some form or another (1) or it's a false religion. I further argue the details of human rights has to be in Quran and Sunnah as well or it's a failed religion.

I am going to trying to prove what Islam says about these issues. I will then be further defending that it has the proper view.

I will leave a bit of room for initial feedback, and people's thoughts about the issue, before I go on.
 

stevecanuck

Well-Known Member
I am curious to see how you can claim that verse 9:29 champions human rights. "Fight those who believe not in Allah" is hardly that. It is in diametric opposition to human rights.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I am curious to see how you can claim that verse 9:29 champions human rights. "Fight those who believe not in Allah" is hardly that. It is in diametric opposition to human rights.
Salam

I didn't mention this verse, but I will discuss the secularism and religious pluralism and the model I believe Quran and hadiths espouse. This thread is not about the fighting verses, there are plenty of threads where we discussed that.
 
Last edited:

Heyo

Veteran Member
Salam

(1) "Human rights" is a subset of rights of humans, sounds weird but it refers to rights of humans pertaining to what should be held or enforced by the government in abstract form while there will be particular applications of it that can differ given situation and circumstances.

(2) Given that this is a very logical thing to hold that there is rights in that category, and are important to deal with, if Islam is silent about the issue, then it fails to guide humanity in one of the more important issues.

(3) Human rights issues interlocks with other issues such as economical models, socialism vs capitalism, poverty, disability rights, as well as political issues and how it can be weaponized for colonialism, gender issues, and sex is also related to it. I will expand as we go in this thread.

I'm holding the definition has to be found in Islam in some form or another (1) or it's a false religion. I further argue the details of human rights has to be in Quran and Sunnah as well or it's a failed religion.

I am going to trying to prove what Islam says about these issues. I will then be further defending that it has the proper view.

I will leave a bit of room for initial feedback, and people's thoughts about the issue, before I go on.
"Human rights", the notion that humans have inherent rights, is only about 300 years old, and it only penetrated the western and western associated world. I wouldn't expect it in anything older than the Enlightenment.
And if we compare the Universal Declaration of Human Rights | United Nations, probably the most current and most wide-spread concept of human rights, we find that the Quran (as well as the Bible) is in stark opposition to it.
 

InvestigateTruth

Well-Known Member
Salam

(1) "Human rights" is a subset of rights of humans, sounds weird but it refers to rights of humans pertaining to what should be held or enforced by the government in abstract form while there will be particular applications of it that can differ given situation and circumstances.

(2) Given that this is a very logical thing to hold that there is rights in that category, and are important to deal with, if Islam is silent about the issue, then it fails to guide humanity in one of the more important issues.

(3) Human rights issues interlocks with other issues such as economical models, socialism vs capitalism, poverty, disability rights, as well as political issues and how it can be weaponized for colonialism, gender issues, and sex is also related to it. I will expand as we go in this thread.

I'm holding the definition has to be found in Islam in some form or another (1) or it's a false religion. I further argue the details of human rights has to be in Quran and Sunnah as well or it's a failed religion.

I am going to trying to prove what Islam says about these issues. I will then be further defending that it has the proper view.

I will leave a bit of room for initial feedback, and people's thoughts about the issue, before I go on.

We cannot get human rights from Islam,which is compatible with today's standards.


5.51] O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.


Imagine a workplace where people work together. Well, do you think Muslims can treat non-Muslims equally if they follow the Quran?
Iranian revolution just applied these laws, that causd the country to become like it is now.

Islam was meant for older times. Doesn't work for our time anymore.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
We cannot get human rights from Islam,which is compatible with today's standards.


5.51] O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.


Imagine a workplace where people work together. Well, do you think Muslims can treat non-Muslims equally if they follow the Quran?
Iranian revolution just applied these laws, that causd the country to become like it is now.

Islam was meant for older times. Doesn't work for our time anymore.
That's not a good translation especially given the same chapter allows marriage to Christians and Jews. The hadiths also don't show this to be the proper translation. We can discuss the context and meaning of the verses here Verse 5:55
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
"Human rights", the notion that humans have inherent rights
This is not what human rights is taught to be today. Humans having inherent rights is as old as humanity. I don't think there is a religion who doesn't teach that. What is new is that there alienable rights that needed to be protected by intuitions, constitution and government and these are called "human rights". The definition morphed to that.

However, I claim that this set of type of human rights, is found in Islam as well. And the definition and subjects pertaining to it are all found explained in Quran and Sunnah as well.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Salam

These verses are about fighting, we have threads about them (quite a few). I don't want it to digress. I would try to understand norms of the Arabic language, and understand context.

Here are two threads:



(There are more threads as well over the years).

And someone probably will bring the issue of killing apostates:

 

Heyo

Veteran Member
This is not what human rights is taught to be today. Humans having inherent rights is as old as humanity. I don't think there is a religion who doesn't teach that. What is new is that there alienable rights that needed to be protected by intuitions, constitution and government and these are called "human rights". The definition morphed to that.
No matter how the term evolved, I think we can agree that the list of "human rights" given by the UN in the UDoHR is the most widely accepted standard today.
However, I claim that this set of type of human rights, is found in Islam as well. And the definition and subjects pertaining to it are all found explained in Quran and Sunnah as well.
I question that. Neither in the Torah nor in the Bible nor in the Qur'an is any list of human rights. And centuries to millennia of praxis of interpretation shows that the texts have rarely been interpreted in such a meaning. Christians and, to an extent, Jews have come to reinterpret their texts only after the Enlightenment and Islam didn't even have a period of Enlightenment.
That shows in the laws and constitutions of Islamic theocracies, and also in the laws of majority Muslim countries. Right to life, equality of the sexes and religious freedom are almost universally absent.

Now, you may want to argue that the Qur'an should be interpreted in a way that it is compatible with Humanistic values, and I think you'd find agreement among western raised and westernised Muslims, but that doesn't change the history of Islam nor will you find agreement among most of the Muslims.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
No matter how the term evolved, I think we can agree that the list of "human rights" given by the UN in the UDoHR is the most widely accepted standard today.

I question that. Neither in the Torah nor in the Bible nor in the Qur'an is any list of human rights. And centuries to millennia of praxis of interpretation shows that the texts have rarely been interpreted in such a meaning. Christians and, to an extent, Jews have come to reinterpret their texts only after the Enlightenment and Islam didn't even have a period of Enlightenment.
That shows in the laws and constitutions of Islamic theocracies, and also in the laws of majority Muslim countries. Right to life, equality of the sexes and religious freedom are almost universally absent.

Now, you may want to argue that the Qur'an should be interpreted in a way that it is compatible with Humanistic values, and I think you'd find agreement among western raised and westernised Muslims, but that doesn't change the history of Islam nor will you find agreement among most of the Muslims.
The concept of human rights comes from mainly these notions:

Humans have rights, positive and negative (negative just means things that should not be done, like should not be harmed, should not be stolen from, etc).
Government is a means to bring good to humans and should be used as such.
Power is related to discourse in society, soft power and hard power, often work together, there is a duty hence of society to make sure the discourse is on the right course and it's not used by those in power to manipulate the masses to falsehood.

The following is from Imam Hussain (a):


O people, take lesson from the counsel God gave to His friends when He rebuked the rabbis by saying:

“Why do the scholars and rabbis not forbid their sinful talk and consumption of what is unlawful ? Truly what they have done is evil.” (5:63)

And God says:

“Cursed by the tongue of David and Jesus, son of Mary are those among the Children of Israel who disbelieved on account of their rebellion and transgression. They did not prevent each other from committing vile and corrupt acts; surely what they did was abominable” (5:78-79).

God reproached them because they saw with their own eyes the oppressors committing vile and corrupt acts, but did not stop them, out of love for the favours they received from them as well as fear of persecution and injury. However, God says:

“Fear not men, but fear Me.” (5:44)

And He says:

“The believing men and women are friends and protectors to each other; they enjoin the good and forbid the evil; they perform the prayer, and pay the alms, and obey God and His messenger. Upon them God shall have mercy; God is Almighty, All-wise.” (9:71)

God mentions the duty of enjoining the good and forbidding the evil (al- 'amr bi al-ma'ruf wa al-nahy 'an al-munkar) before all other duties, because He knows that if it is performed and is established in the society all other duties, the easy and the difficult, will also become established.

The reason for this is that al-'amr bi al ma'ruf wa al-nahy 'an al-munkar means summoning people to Islam, as well as resistance against injustice, opposing and struggling against oppressors, and endeavoring to ensure that public wealth and income derived from war are distributed in accordance with the just laws of Islam, and that taxes are collected, levied and expended in due and proper form.

O scholars, who are celebrated and enjoy good repute on account of your learning! You have achieved a good name in society because of your good will. It is on account of God that men venerate you and stand in awe of you, so that even powerful fear you and the weak honour you, and those who are not subject to you and over whom you hold no authority grant you favours they deny themselves . When the people do not receive their due. they seek your intercession, and you walk in the street with the majesty of kings and princes.

Have you not earned all this respect and prestige because of the people's hopes that you will implement God's laws, even though in most instances you have failed to do so?

You have taken lightly your duties as leaders. You have neglected the rights of the oppressed and the lowly, but have assiduously pursued what you regard as your personal rights. You have not spent your money or risked your life for the sake of the One Who gave you life, nor have you fought against any group or tribe for the sake of God.

Nevertheless, you desire - and regard it as your due - that He should grant you paradise, the company of the prophet, and security from chastisement in the hereafter. You have such expectations of God, I fear that the full weight of His wrath descend upon you, for although it is by His might and glory that you have achieved high rank, you show no respect to those who truly know god, while you yourselves enjoy respect among God's creatures on His account.

(I am also afraid for you for another reason: ) you see the covenant enacted with God being violated and trampled under foot, yet you show no anxiety, when it comes to the covenants enacted with your fathers, you become greatly disturbed and anxious if they are only violated in part, but the pledges you have given to the most noble Messenger are a matter of complete indifference to you.

The blind, the dumb, and chronically ill everywhere lack protection in towns and no mercy is shown them. But you neither behave in accordance with your function and rank, nor you support or pay any regard to those who do. You purchase your safety from the oppressive ruling powers with flattery cajolery, and compromise.

All these activities have been forbidden you by God, and He has, more over, command you to forbid each other to engage in them, but you pay no attention.

The calamity that has befallen you is greater than what has befallen others, for true rank and degree of “Ulama” has been taken away from you. The administration of the country and the issuing of decrees and ordinances should actually be trusted to religious scholars who are guardians of God's ordinances concerning what is permitted and what is forbidden. But your position has been usurped from you, for no other reason than that you have abandoned the truth (al-haqq), and have disagreed about the nature of the sunnah, despite the existence of clear proofs.

Had you the forbearance to endure adversities and hardships for the sake of God, then all proposed regulations (God's affairs) would be brought to you for your approval and for you to issue; authority would lie in your hands. But you allowed the oppressors to take away your functions and God's affairs (i.e. government) to fall into their hands, so that they administer them by resorting to ambiguities and make arbitrariness and the satisfaction of lust their consistent practice.

What enabled them to gain control of government was your fleeing in panic from (inevitable) death and your love of life, which shall in all certainty depart from you. As a consequence of that mentality, you have delivered the powerless masses into the clutches of the oppressors.

While some cringe like slaves under the yoke of oppressors, and others have been reduced to destitution in regard to their livelihood, the rulers run the affairs of the government in accordance with their whims, earning ignominy and disgrace for themselves with their licentiousness, following evil counselors, and showing impudence toward God.

One of their appointed spokesmen mounts the pulpit (minbar) in each city. The country is defenseless before them, and their hands grab freely whatever they want of it. The people are their slaves and are powerless to defend themselves. One of the governors is a dictator by nature, malevolent and rancorous; another represses to recognize either God or the Day of Resurrection!

It is not strange - how can one think it strange, that society is the clutches of a cunning oppressor whose tax collectors are oppressors and whose governers feel no compassion or mercy towards the believers under rule.

It is God who will judge concerning what is dispute among us and deliver a decisive verdict concerning all that occurs among us.

O God! You know that everything we did was not prompted by rivalry for political power, nor for a search for wealth and abundance; rather it was done to demonstrate to men the shining principles and values of Your religion, to reform the affairs of Your land, to protect and secure the indisputable rights of Your oppressed servants, and to act in accordance with the duties You have established and the norms, laws, and ordinances You have decreed.

So (O scholars of religion!) You are to help us reach this goal, win back our rights from those powers who have considered it acceptable to wrong you and who have attempted to put out the light kindled by your Prophet. God suffices us, upon Him do we rely, to Him do we return, and to Him shall we return.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
I'm holding the definition has to be found in Islam in some form or another (1) or it's a false religion. I further argue the details of human rights has to be in Quran and Sunnah as well or it's a failed religion.
Do you see these requirements as inherent to claims of being a functional religion (any religion) or are they in some sense unique to Islam?

(Considering, of course, that scriptures and traditions are not unique to Islam even if they won't be the Qur'an and the Sunnah)
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
"Human rights", the notion that humans have inherent rights, is only about 300 years old, and it only penetrated the western and western associated world. I wouldn't expect it in anything older than the Enlightenment.
And if we compare the Universal Declaration of Human Rights | United Nations, probably the most current and most wide-spread concept of human rights, we find that the Quran (as well as the Bible) is in stark opposition to it.
While that well be true (the last part certainly is), it is reasonable to expect and even demand that a functional religion would have some form of stance towards Human Rights even in its original form, even if it is a very ancient one.

The idea of human rights is far more than 300 years old. It may well have been discussed and significantly shaped 300 years ago, but it did was not all that original a creation back then.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I will quote some part of the letter and bold a relevant part:

Remember that the people are composed of different classes. The progress of one is dependent on the progress of every other, and none can afford to be independent of the other. We have the Army formed of the soldiers of God. We have our civil officers and their establishments, our judiciary, our revenue collectors and our public relations officers.

The general public itself consists of Muslims and other subjects and among them of merchants and craftsmen, the unemployed and the indigent. God has prescribed for them their rights, duties and obligations. They are all defined and preserved in the Holy Quran and in the traditions of his Prophet.

The army, by the grace of God, is like a fortress to the people and lends dignity to the state. It upholds the prestige of the faith and maintains the peace of the country. Without it the state cannot stand. In its turn, it cannot stand without the support of the state. Our soldiers have proved strong before the enemy because of the privilege God has given them to fight for Him; but they have their material needs to fulfil and have therefore to depend upon the income provided for them from the state revenue.

The military and civil population who pay revenue, both need the co-operation of others – the judiciary, civil officers and their establishment. The judge administers civil and criminal law; the civil officers collect revenue and attend to civil administration with the assistance of their establishment. And then there are the tradesmen and the merchants who add to the revenue of the state. It is they who run the markets and are in a better position than others to discharge social obligations.

Then there is the class of the poor and the needy, whose maintenance is an obligation on the other classes. God has given appropriate opportunity of service to one and all; then there are the rights of all these classes over the administration which the administrator has to meet with an eye on the good of the entire population – a duty which he cannot fulfill properly unless he takes personal interest in its execution and seeks help from God. Indeed, it is obligatory on him to impose this duty on himself and to bear with patience the inconveniences and difficulties incidental to his task.

There is also this part:

Remember, Maalik, that amongst your subjects there are two kinds of people: those who have the same religion as you have; they are brothers to you, and those who have religions other than that of yours, they are your equal in creation. Men of either category suffer from the same weaknesses and disabilities that human beings are inclined to, they commit sins, indulge in vices either intentionally or foolishly and unintentionally without realizing the enormity of their deeds. Let your mercy and compassion come to their rescue and help in the same way and to the same extent that you expect Allah to show mercy and forgiveness to you.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Do you see these requirements as inherent to claims of being a functional religion (any religion) or are they in some sense unique to Islam?

(Considering, of course, that scriptures and traditions are not unique to Islam even if they won't be the Qur'an and the Sunnah)
I don't know, but if a religion lacks them, they are definitely not a full guidance and missing one of the most essential concepts for humans.
 

McBell

mantra-chanting henotheistic snake handler
While that well be true (the last part certainly is), it is reasonable to expect and even demand that a functional religion would have some form of stance towards Human Rights even in its original form, even if it is a very ancient one.

The idea of human rights is far more than 300 years old. It may well have been discussed and significantly shaped 300 years ago, but it did was not all that original a creation back then.
The United Nations pinpoint the origin of Human Rights to the year 539 BC. When the troops of Cyrus the Great conquered Babylon, Cyrus freed the slaves, declared that all people had the right to choose their own religion, and established racial equality. These and other precepts were recorded on a baked-clay cylinder known as the Cyrus Cylinder, whose provisions served as inspiration for the first four Articles of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights​
 

Heyo

Veteran Member
The concept of human rights comes from mainly these notions:

Humans have rights, positive and negative (negative just means things that should not be done, like should not be harmed, should not be stolen from, etc).
Government is a means to bring good to humans and should be used as such.
Power is related to discourse in society, soft power and hard power, often work together, there is a duty hence of society to make sure the discourse is on the right course and it's not used by those in power to manipulate the masses to falsehood.

The following is from Imam Hussain (a):


O people, take lesson from the counsel God gave to His friends when He rebuked the rabbis by saying:

“Why do the scholars and rabbis not forbid their sinful talk and consumption of what is unlawful ? Truly what they have done is evil.” (5:63)

And God says:

“Cursed by the tongue of David and Jesus, son of Mary are those among the Children of Israel who disbelieved on account of their rebellion and transgression. They did not prevent each other from committing vile and corrupt acts; surely what they did was abominable” (5:78-79).

God reproached them because they saw with their own eyes the oppressors committing vile and corrupt acts, but did not stop them, out of love for the favours they received from them as well as fear of persecution and injury. However, God says:

“Fear not men, but fear Me.” (5:44)

And He says:

“The believing men and women are friends and protectors to each other; they enjoin the good and forbid the evil; they perform the prayer, and pay the alms, and obey God and His messenger. Upon them God shall have mercy; God is Almighty, All-wise.” (9:71)

God mentions the duty of enjoining the good and forbidding the evil (al- 'amr bi al-ma'ruf wa al-nahy 'an al-munkar) before all other duties, because He knows that if it is performed and is established in the society all other duties, the easy and the difficult, will also become established.

The reason for this is that al-'amr bi al ma'ruf wa al-nahy 'an al-munkar means summoning people to Islam, as well as resistance against injustice, opposing and struggling against oppressors, and endeavoring to ensure that public wealth and income derived from war are distributed in accordance with the just laws of Islam, and that taxes are collected, levied and expended in due and proper form.

O scholars, who are celebrated and enjoy good repute on account of your learning! You have achieved a good name in society because of your good will. It is on account of God that men venerate you and stand in awe of you, so that even powerful fear you and the weak honour you, and those who are not subject to you and over whom you hold no authority grant you favours they deny themselves . When the people do not receive their due. they seek your intercession, and you walk in the street with the majesty of kings and princes.

Have you not earned all this respect and prestige because of the people's hopes that you will implement God's laws, even though in most instances you have failed to do so?

You have taken lightly your duties as leaders. You have neglected the rights of the oppressed and the lowly, but have assiduously pursued what you regard as your personal rights. You have not spent your money or risked your life for the sake of the One Who gave you life, nor have you fought against any group or tribe for the sake of God.

Nevertheless, you desire - and regard it as your due - that He should grant you paradise, the company of the prophet, and security from chastisement in the hereafter. You have such expectations of God, I fear that the full weight of His wrath descend upon you, for although it is by His might and glory that you have achieved high rank, you show no respect to those who truly know god, while you yourselves enjoy respect among God's creatures on His account.

(I am also afraid for you for another reason: ) you see the covenant enacted with God being violated and trampled under foot, yet you show no anxiety, when it comes to the covenants enacted with your fathers, you become greatly disturbed and anxious if they are only violated in part, but the pledges you have given to the most noble Messenger are a matter of complete indifference to you.

The blind, the dumb, and chronically ill everywhere lack protection in towns and no mercy is shown them. But you neither behave in accordance with your function and rank, nor you support or pay any regard to those who do. You purchase your safety from the oppressive ruling powers with flattery cajolery, and compromise.

All these activities have been forbidden you by God, and He has, more over, command you to forbid each other to engage in them, but you pay no attention.

The calamity that has befallen you is greater than what has befallen others, for true rank and degree of “Ulama” has been taken away from you. The administration of the country and the issuing of decrees and ordinances should actually be trusted to religious scholars who are guardians of God's ordinances concerning what is permitted and what is forbidden. But your position has been usurped from you, for no other reason than that you have abandoned the truth (al-haqq), and have disagreed about the nature of the sunnah, despite the existence of clear proofs.

Had you the forbearance to endure adversities and hardships for the sake of God, then all proposed regulations (God's affairs) would be brought to you for your approval and for you to issue; authority would lie in your hands. But you allowed the oppressors to take away your functions and God's affairs (i.e. government) to fall into their hands, so that they administer them by resorting to ambiguities and make arbitrariness and the satisfaction of lust their consistent practice.

What enabled them to gain control of government was your fleeing in panic from (inevitable) death and your love of life, which shall in all certainty depart from you. As a consequence of that mentality, you have delivered the powerless masses into the clutches of the oppressors.

While some cringe like slaves under the yoke of oppressors, and others have been reduced to destitution in regard to their livelihood, the rulers run the affairs of the government in accordance with their whims, earning ignominy and disgrace for themselves with their licentiousness, following evil counselors, and showing impudence toward God.

One of their appointed spokesmen mounts the pulpit (minbar) in each city. The country is defenseless before them, and their hands grab freely whatever they want of it. The people are their slaves and are powerless to defend themselves. One of the governors is a dictator by nature, malevolent and rancorous; another represses to recognize either God or the Day of Resurrection!

It is not strange - how can one think it strange, that society is the clutches of a cunning oppressor whose tax collectors are oppressors and whose governers feel no compassion or mercy towards the believers under rule.

It is God who will judge concerning what is dispute among us and deliver a decisive verdict concerning all that occurs among us.

O God! You know that everything we did was not prompted by rivalry for political power, nor for a search for wealth and abundance; rather it was done to demonstrate to men the shining principles and values of Your religion, to reform the affairs of Your land, to protect and secure the indisputable rights of Your oppressed servants, and to act in accordance with the duties You have established and the norms, laws, and ordinances You have decreed.

So (O scholars of religion!) You are to help us reach this goal, win back our rights from those powers who have considered it acceptable to wrong you and who have attempted to put out the light kindled by your Prophet. God suffices us, upon Him do we rely, to Him do we return, and to Him shall we return.
tl; dr

Especially since it doesn't do what you set out to show. You cite a letter, not the Qur'an or a Hadith.
You would have to take what is seen as a human right, e.g.

Article 1​

All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.
and find an equal passage in your scripture.
And you'd have to explain why this principle isn't implemented in Islamic theocracies.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Especially since it doesn't do what you set out to show. You cite a letter
The letter is a hadith though. Just as Ziyarats and Du'a are a particular type of hadith, so is the letter.

But I will get to what Quran says about all these issues. I'm building up to that.
 

Link

Veteran Member
Premium Member
And you'd have to explain why this principle isn't implemented in Islamic theocracies.
We have to discuss Foucault's concept of discourse, and this an important issue in human rights. Actually, the central reasons human rights have never been established as they ought to be has to do with the issue of discourse.
 
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