Jesus - First Born?

[amazing grace]

So you will always be in contention and like it…?

Agreeing to disagree is not solving the problem of truth… truth that I thought you were attempting to disseminate in this forum.

Oh well… ‘He who has ears …’!

Do you believe that Trinitarians think that you are not saying that Jesus pre-existed in Heaven? Do you think that you are saying what they are thinking… that Jesus ‘CAME DOWN FROM HEAVEN’? This just adds to the idea you have that Jesus was ‘Sent’ as a baby… No! He was ‘sent’ after God anointed him. Jesus did not start his mission until after he was anointed and SENT to do God’s work: ‘This is my Son in whom I am well pleased!!’:

• ‘Behold my servant - MY CHOSEN ONE - in whom I am well pleased. I will put my Spirit on him and he will do my bidding…’ (Isaiah 42:1 paraphrased)

Jesus was TESTED as to his ability to overcome sin by way of the trials in the wilderness. Doubles there were more than three trials but he passed them all. So, it was AFTER he was tested and PASSED… that he was SENT. Does anyone SEND an untested person to do the most important work in history of mankind?

You don’t think that to avoid the ambiguity you should ‘change your language’ (the way you say things?) You say ‘no’! Is it pride? It’s simple… just understand that progression requires change or else you will forever be in contention.

Aren't you always in contention with the Trinitarian doctrine?

Like I said - I can't be responsible for HOW someone reads and understands what I post. I have consistently denied that Jesus literally preexisted.
Yes, Jesus was sent to accomplish the works that God purposed him to do.

I really don't think that anyone has the right to TELL another person how they should speak or the words they should use when they speak . . .
I fully understand what I am saying, and I believe that others also know and understand what I am saying or else there would not be post after post that continue to argue preexistence with me if they understood or thought preexistence to be my stance because then we would be in agreement!!!

 

[Soapy]

Aren't you always in contention with the Trinitarian doctrine?

Like I said - I can't be responsible for HOW someone reads and understands what I post. I have consistently denied that Jesus literally preexisted.
Yes, Jesus was sent to accomplish the works that God purposed him to do.

I really don't think that anyone has the right to TELL another person how they should speak or the words they should use when they speak . . .
I fully understand what I am saying, and I believe that others also know and understand what I am saying or else there would not be post after post that continue to argue preexistence with me if they understood or thought preexistence to be my stance because then we would be in agreement!!!

It’s because you say you don’t believe in ore-existence but the philosophy behind your claim do not match up … hence your belief comes across as ambiguous:

• ‘Jesus did not pre-exist his appearance on earth’
• ‘Jesus came from God as a baby born to a woman’

That’s funny because Trinitarians say that Jesus came from God as a baby born to a human female. BECAUSE you believe in what you SAY you imagine that ANYTHING you write in your mindset is automatically understood by others IN your mindset. The Trinitarians may not disagree with ‘Came [down] from Heaven’ BECAUSE it upholds their view … you are inadvertently upholding trinity a viewpoint - why would they stop you propagating their falsehoods?

Your ‘contention’ is ADJACENT to their belief…, but mine is JUXTAPOSED… I argue completely against ‘Came down from God/Heaven’, saying only, ‘Sent BY GOD’… There was no ‘down from Heaven’. Trinity was trying to force the idea that Jesus was in Heaven and was sent DOWN by God FROM THERE by EMBODYING Jesus’ spirit in a body as a baby!! That requires Jesus to be pre-existent as a Spirit who was then changed into a human Being…. That is completely false!

Their great clincher, Phil 2, is nothing to do with Jesus in heaven AS GOD, equal to God, or ‘not desiring to be God’. The verse is exhorting the apostles to have the mindset of Jesus Christ - how would a human Being have the mindset of someone thinking they were ALMIGHTY GOD??? No!! Jesus, being endowed/empowered with the Spirit of God DID NOT THINK TO ABUSE HIS POWERS BY PLACING HIMSELF AS GOD… BUT INSTEAD… humbled himself to become a servant to mankind. That’s how the apostles should act … remember that they too were endowed/empowered (albeit by a lesser amount!) with the Spirit of God…. And they too were SENT AFTER BEING ANOINTED WITH THE SPIRIT OF GOD:

• ‘As I was sent so also I send you’…’Receive the Spirit of God’ (John 20:21-22)

None of them ever said, ‘I came [down] from Jesus’!!!

 

[Brian2]

It’s because you say you don’t believe in ore-existence but the philosophy behind your claim do not match up … hence your belief comes across as ambiguous:

• ‘Jesus did not pre-exist his appearance on earth’
• ‘Jesus came from God as a baby born to a woman’

That’s funny because Trinitarians say that Jesus came from God as a baby born to a human female. BECAUSE you believe in what you SAY you imagine that ANYTHING you write in your mindset is automatically understood by others IN your mindset. The Trinitarians may not disagree with ‘Came [down] from Heaven’ BECAUSE it upholds their view … you are inadvertently upholding trinity a viewpoint - why would they stop you propagating their falsehoods?

Your ‘contention’ is ADJACENT to their belief…, but mine is JUXTAPOSED… I argue completely against ‘Came down from God/Heaven’, saying only, ‘Sent BY GOD’… There was no ‘down from Heaven’. Trinity was trying to force the idea that Jesus was in Heaven and was sent DOWN by God FROM THERE by EMBODYING Jesus’ spirit in a body as a baby!! That requires Jesus to be pre-existent as a Spirit who was then changed into a human Being…. That is completely false!

Their great clincher, Phil 2, is nothing to do with Jesus in heaven AS GOD, equal to God, or ‘not desiring to be God’. The verse is exhorting the apostles to have the mindset of Jesus Christ - how would a human Being have the mindset of someone thinking they were ALMIGHTY GOD??? No!! Jesus, being endowed/empowered with the Spirit of God DID NOT THINK TO ABUSE HIS POWERS BY PLACING HIMSELF AS GOD… BUT INSTEAD… humbled himself to become a servant to mankind. That’s how the apostles should act … remember that they too were endowed/empowered (albeit by a lesser amount!) with the Spirit of God…. And they too were SENT AFTER BEING ANOINTED WITH THE SPIRIT OF GOD:

• ‘As I was sent so also I send you’…’Receive the Spirit of God’ (John 20:21-22)

None of them ever said, ‘I came [down] from Jesus’!!!

It is a problem for your no pre existence stance that Jesus actually tells us that He came down from heaven, and this is said in many places and in a number of ways.
Ignoring that does not make it go away and just not mentioning it could be seen as deception. otoh interpreting those passages as not meaning that Jesus came down from heaven as @amazing grace does, is seen as denying the plain meaning of scripture and replacing it with a doctrine that scripture does not support. Denying and altering the plain meaning to scripture is the only way the doctrine can be argued to be scriptural.
As for Phil 2, you ignore what the passage actually says and replace it with a made up version of the passage. Same thing, denying the plain meaning and replacing it with a meaning that does not fit but which agrees with your pre existing doctrine.

 

[amazing grace]

It’s because you say you don’t believe in ore-existence but the philosophy behind your claim do not match up … hence your belief comes across as ambiguous:

• ‘Jesus did not pre-exist his appearance on earth’
• ‘Jesus came from God as a baby born to a woman’

That’s funny because Trinitarians say that Jesus came from God as a baby born to a human female. BECAUSE you believe in what you SAY you imagine that ANYTHING you write in your mindset is automatically understood by others IN your mindset. The Trinitarians may not disagree with ‘Came [down] from Heaven’ BECAUSE it upholds their view … you are inadvertently upholding trinity a viewpoint - why would they stop you propagating their falsehoods?

Your ‘contention’ is ADJACENT to their belief…, but mine is JUXTAPOSED… I argue completely against ‘Came down from God/Heaven’, saying only, ‘Sent BY GOD’… There was no ‘down from Heaven’. Trinity was trying to force the idea that Jesus was in Heaven and was sent DOWN by God FROM THERE by EMBODYING Jesus’ spirit in a body as a baby!! That requires Jesus to be pre-existent as a Spirit who was then changed into a human Being…. That is completely false!

How else did Jesus get here?
I believe he was miraculously created in the womb of Mary by the Holy Spirit (the Spirit of God) the power of the Most High.
Who is the Most High? God. So, in that manner, Jesus came from God, in that manner, he was sent. And yes, he was sent out (commissioned) to accomplish the works God gave him to do. Where does God live? In heaven. So, in that manner, Jesus came from heaven.
Did Jesus literally (actually) preexist in heaven in a "prehuman" form? NO

Their great clincher, Phil 2, is nothing to do with Jesus in heaven AS GOD, equal to God, or ‘not desiring to be God’. The verse is exhorting the apostles to have the mindset of Jesus Christ - how would a human Being have the mindset of someone thinking they were ALMIGHTY GOD??? No!! Jesus, being endowed/empowered with the Spirit of God DID NOT THINK TO ABUSE HIS POWERS BY PLACING HIMSELF AS GOD… BUT INSTEAD… humbled himself to become a servant to mankind. That’s how the apostles should act … remember that they too were endowed/empowered (albeit by a lesser amount!) with the Spirit of God…. And they too were SENT AFTER BEING ANOINTED WITH THE SPIRIT OF GOD:

• ‘As I was sent so also I send you’…’Receive the Spirit of God’ (John 20:21-22)

None of them ever said, ‘I came [down] from Jesus’!!!

I agree.

 

[Soapy]

It is a problem for your no pre existence stance that Jesus actually tells us that He came down from heaven, and this is said in many places and in a number of ways.
Ignoring that does not make it go away and just not mentioning it could be seen as deception. otoh interpreting those passages as not meaning that Jesus came down from heaven as @amazing grace does, is seen as denying the plain meaning of scripture and replacing it with a doctrine that scripture does not support. Denying and altering the plain meaning to scripture is the only way the doctrine can be argued to be scriptural.
As for Phil 2, you ignore what the passage actually says and replace it with a made up version of the passage. Same thing, denying the plain meaning and replacing it with a meaning that does not fit but which agrees with your pre existing doctrine.

No Brian2, the New Testament chapters and verses were written years after they were spoken and translated by a group that had an agenda. This results in these many verses being modified for that agenda and used to its ends.

However, not all verses could be changed - CORRUPTED - and thus the truth of the actual meanings or proper words can be shown as the true words.

Just in case you don’t remember it… Jesus told us that men would try to corrupt the word of God - and woe to those who try. Are you saying that Jesus lied in saying that men would try to corrupt the word of God?

If your answer is that you believe that Jesus lied….

But if you believe that Jesus spoke the truth then which verses do you think were or may have been corrupted as such?

GOD said he would send a saviour… God is not that saviour who was sent… God sent himself?

God CONSECRATED Jesus, anointed Jesus, allow Jesus to be tempted in order to test Jesus, and then when Jesus passed all the tests GOD SENT HIM!!

 

[Brian2]

No Brian2, the New Testament chapters and verses were written years after they were spoken and translated by a group that had an agenda. This results in these many verses being modified for that agenda and used to its ends.

However, not all verses could be changed - CORRUPTED - and thus the truth of the actual meanings or proper words can be shown as the true words.

Just in case you don’t remember it… Jesus told us that men would try to corrupt the word of God - and woe to those who try. Are you saying that Jesus lied in saying that men would try to corrupt the word of God?

If your answer is that you believe that Jesus lied….

But if you believe that Jesus spoke the truth then which verses do you think were or may have been corrupted as such?

GOD said he would send a saviour… God is not that saviour who was sent… God sent himself?

God CONSECRATED Jesus, anointed Jesus, allow Jesus to be tempted in order to test Jesus, and then when Jesus passed all the tests GOD SENT HIM!!

I can't remember where Jesus said that people would try to corrupt the word of God. Actually the New Testament did not exist when Jesus lived on earth. But I do see men corrupting the word of God these days. Those who corrupt the word of God tell people that they are just correcting it.
I wonder how they think they know they are correcting it.

 

[Muffled]

Jesus was the Son of God before anything was created.
Hebrews 1:1 Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.
All things were created through the pre human Jesus, the Son of God.
The pre human Jesus was one of those things that have been created through the pre human Jesus. The pre human Jesus has been with the Father from eternity.

I believe that is idolatry in saying that God has two Spirits. The Hebrew text can't change the reality which is that it is God in Jesus who created the world and there was no separate person of Jesus before the creation.

 

[Soapy]

I believe that is idolatry in saying that God has two Spirits. The Hebrew text can't change the reality which is that it is God in Jesus who created the world and there was no separate person of Jesus before the creation.

What do you mean by ‘God in Jesus who created the world…’?

Who created the world - God, or Jesus?

God said he and he alone created all things.
Did Jesus ever say he created anything?

You do know that no Hebrew script ever says that Jesus created anything let alone even Jesus existing ‘in the beginning’. It is the NEW TESTAMENT scripts which were written in Greek and then translated by TRINITARIANS many many of years after Jesus was taken up to Heaven, at that.

 

[Brian2]

I believe that is idolatry in saying that God has two Spirits. The Hebrew text can't change the reality which is that it is God in Jesus who created the world and there was no separate person of Jesus before the creation.

I read what I wrote and should have asked rhetorically "Was the pre human Jesus one of those things that have been created through the pre human Jesus?"
But putting that aside, I would have to say that I don't think God has 2 Spirits. There is one Spirit says Ephesians 4:4.
In this one Spirit is the Father, the Son imo.
In a weird way I suppose some people might consider it idolatry to have any internal picture of God. But we know that none of those internal pictures are absolutely true, they are just things in our thinking to help in our understanding.

 

[Dimi95]

How else did Jesus get here?
I believe he was miraculously created in the womb of Mary by the Holy Spirit (the Spirit of God) the power of the Most High.
Who is the Most High? God. So, in that manner, Jesus came from God, in that manner, he was sent. And yes, he was sent out (commissioned) to accomplish the works God gave him to do.Where does God live? In heaven. So, in that manner, Jesus came from heaven.
Did Jesus literally (actually) preexist in heaven in a "prehuman" form? NO

Then why did he say this?
"Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am." John 8:58

and this

"I and the Father are one" John 10:30

and this

"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."

You know the meaning of "Root" and "Offspring", right?

 

[Dimi95]

Who created the world - God, or Jesus?

John 1:3
"Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made."

With you only with Scripture , nothing else.

 

[Soapy]

John 1:3
"Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made."

With you only with Scripture , nothing else.

Who created all things - God or Jesus?

 

[Soapy]

Then why did he say this?
"Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am." John 8:58

and this

"I and the Father are one" John 10:30

and this

"I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star."

You know the meaning of "Root" and "Offspring", right?

How many people in the world were ‘before’ Abraham?

Was Noah ‘before’ Abraham?

What about Adam?

Cain?… Abel… Seth…

Abraham’s brothers and his Father?

What do you think then it means to be ‘before’ someone else?

John the Baptist was praised by for his GREATNESS (hint!!!) but even he said that there was one GREATER (hint hint) than himself!!!

So, Jesus is saying that ‘Abraham was praised for his GREAT faith but yet even Abraham saw me as being GREATER THAN himself’:

• ‘Abraham SAW MY DAY AND WAS GLAD’

If a great man highly praises another man then that signifies that the second man is GREATER …

Tell me, what was the question that the Jews asked Jesus?

Tell me, in a nutshell, what Jesus answered them!!

“Are you greater than our great ancestor Abraham?”

“Abraham spoke it himself - Yes, I am!!”

Jesus’ answer has got nothing to do with Jesus being BORN before Abraham…. Someone who us ‘BEFORE’ another is just another way of saying hd is ‘GREATER THAN’ the other!!!:

• ‘There is one to come who is BEFORE me…!’
• ‘There is one to come who is GREATER THAN me’…!

 

[Dimi95]

Who created all things - God or Jesus?

Matthew
"For this people’s heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them."

 

[Soapy]

Matthew
"For this people’s heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them."

What are you saying?

Are you talking about yourself?

 

[Dimi95]

How many people in the world were ‘before’ Abraham?

Was Noah ‘before’ Abraham?

What about Adam?

Cain?… Abel… Seth…

Abraham’s brothers and his Father?

What do you think then if means to be ‘before’ someone else?

John the Baptist was praised by for his GREATNESS (hint!!!) but even he said that there was one GREATER (hint hint) than himself!!!

So, Jesus is saying that ‘Abraham was praiseworthy for his faith but yet even Abraham saw me as being GREATER than himself’:

• ‘Abraham SAW MY DAY AND WAS GLAD’

If a great man highly praises another man then that signifies that the second man is GREATER …

Tell me, what was the question that the Jews asked Jesus?

Tell me, in a nutshell, what Jesus answered them!!

“Are you greater than our great ancestor Abraham?”

“Abraham spoke it himself - Yes, I am!!”

Jesus’ answer has got nothing to do with Jesus being BORN before Abraham…. Someone who us ‘BEFORE’ another is just another way of saying hd is ‘GREATER THAN’ the other!!!:

• ‘There is one to come who is BEFORE me…!’
• ‘There is one to come who is GREATER THAN me’…!

Proverbs 12
"Good people obtain favor from the Lord,but he condemns those who devise wicked schemes."

This is just one more of your failed attemps to twist passages and interprete them so they can fit in your understanding.

You have been proven wrong many times here and still you continue to be ignorant

John 1
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

Revelation 19
"I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war.His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns.He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself.He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God."

James
"Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says."

What i do is answer with Scripture , something that you can't do sadly.

 

[Dimi95]

Who created all things - God or Jesus?

The question is , why EVERYTHING was made with him,and not without him..

 

[Dimi95]

John the Baptist was praised by for his GREATNESS (hint!!!) but even he said that there was one GREATER (hint hint) than himself!!!

Malachi 3
"I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come,” says the Lord Almighty."

Matthew 3
"A voice of one calling in the wilderness,
‘Prepare the way for the Lord,
make straight paths for him.’"

and again we go back to
Malachi 3
"So I will come to put you on trial. I will be quick to testify against sorcerers, adulterers and perjurers, against those who defraud laborers of their wages, who oppress the widows and the fatherless, and deprive the foreigners among you of justice, but do not fear me,” says the Lord Almighty."

 

[Soapy]

Proverbs 12
"Good people obtain favor from the Lord,but he condemns those who devise wicked schemes."

This is just one more of your failed attemps to twist passages and interprete them so they can fit in your understanding.

You have been proven wrong many times here and still you continue to be ignorant

John 1
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

Revelation 19
"I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war.His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns.He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself.He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God."

James
"Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says."

What i do is answer with Scripture , something that you can't do sadly.

So, basically you’ve just admitted that you have no idea what you are talking about.

Nothing that you just replied with has any relevance to the questions I asked you.

I think it might be better for you to learn the truth rather that spout hearsay that has no validly in reality.

 

[Soapy]

Malachi 3
"I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come,” says the Lord Almighty."

Matthew 3
"A voice of one calling in the wilderness,
‘Prepare the way for the Lord,
make straight paths for him.’"

and again we go back to
Malachi 3
"So I will come to put you on trial. I will be quick to testify against sorcerers, adulterers and perjurers, against those who defraud laborers of their wages, who oppress the widows and the fatherless, and deprive the foreigners among you of justice, but do not fear me,” says the Lord Almighty."

You quote what you do not understand. I just showed you that John the Baptist was that servant whom God sent to prepare the way for the coming Lord… The messiah… whom the Jews were expecting.

The ‘Messenger of the covenant’ is the Messiah. You emphasise the speaker as ‘The Almighty’ … who is sending ‘John the Baptist’ in preparation for the Messiah.

John rightly stated that even he could not even lace the sandals straps of the coming Lord, so great was that coming Lord: ‘He is greater than I’!!!

Why is your understanding so out of kilter with what is being showing to you?
—————————————

Note to Amazing Angel… John the Baptist ALSO CAME FROM GOD but would you also say that he ‘Came from Heaven’?