Disbelievers in Christianity Answer Please!

[Sargonski]

I voted the first option.

"Seeing is Believing"

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Because I have learned of all the things which do seem to determine our choices, whether genes, or epigenetics, womb environment, cultural background, influence of poverty and other sources of stress, traumas we experience... I think I've recalled about half the things covered in his lectures.

He is a brilliant, brilliant man, and his sense of humor makes his classes a delight to listen to. I encourage you to watch his lecture series for yourself, and see if your belief in free will remains intact.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL848F2368C90DDC3D

I've seen those lectures. Very interesting indeed.
However, it doesn't convince me that free will doesn't exist.

What imo it does do is show that depending on a myriad of factors, certain choices or behaviors are more likely then others. It's about how psychology and way of thinking can and will be influenced and shaped by all kinds of things, many of which we can generalize.

But you still have the ability / option to go in a different direction with your choices regardless.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I believe our choices are determined by our heredity and previous experiences, but that does not mean we do not make choices. Free will is simply the will/ability to make choices based upon our desires and preferences, which come from a combination of factors such as childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances. All of these are the reasons why we choose one thing or another.

I see that differently.

To me, free will is the ability to choose something other then the most likely outcome.
I agree that behavior in principle can be "predicted" given we have full knowledge of the psychological profile of a person (which would encompass the entire person: cultural background, upbringing, beliefs, etc).

The "free" part in "free will" however, is the fact that a person can nonetheless deviate from that "expected outcome" and go another way instead.
To NOT have free will would turn humans into robots where future decisions could in principle be predicted with 100% accuracy, since they would literally be determined by their past. I don't believe this is the case at all.

While I certainly agree we can assume a likely outcome, the "free" part of free will makes it such that we can not assume such with certainty. Any person can still freely choose a different path then the expected one. Even if for the most part this doesn't really happen.

 

[Trailblazer]

I see that differently.

To me, free will is the ability to choose something other then the most likely outcome.
I agree that behavior in principle can be "predicted" given we have full knowledge of the psychological profile of a person (which would encompass the entire person: cultural background, upbringing, beliefs, etc).

The "free" part in "free will" however, is the fact that a person can nonetheless deviate from that "expected outcome" and go another way instead.
To NOT have free will would turn humans into robots where future decisions could in principle be predicted with 100% accuracy, since they would literally be determined by their past. I don't believe this is the case at all.

While I certainly agree we can assume a likely outcome, the "free" part of free will makes it such that we can not assume such with certainty. Any person can still freely choose a different path then the expected one. Even if for the most part this doesn't really happen.

When I said I believe our choices are determined by our heredity and previous experiences, I was not referring to determinism, since I believe we have free will to make choices, although the choices we make are constrained by many factors such as childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances. Those don't necessarily 'determine' what we will choose but they 'influence' our choices.

We cannot just choose to "do" anything we want to do just because we have free will. There are many things I would like to do but I also know that realistically I cannot do them, since I don't have the ability or the opportunity. That is another way that free will is constrained. Free will is also constrained by my personality, which I cannot change, because it has already been developed. Some people think that just because I have a lot of money and I am healthy I can retire and "choose" to do anything I might want to do, like travel, but that is not so, because my life circumstances and personality prevent me from doing many things.

I don't think that behavior can be "predicted" by looking at the psychological profile of a person. I think there is much more to it than psychology. I cannot even predict my own behavior, how much less can anyone predict my behavior. People might be able to predict their own behavior if they make plans for the future, like planning a trip or planning to retire, but those might not work out as planned.

I don't think anyone can predict the future with 100% accuracy. Even weather forecasters can be wrong. For example, it was supposed to be well below freezing last night and still freezing this morning as well as foggy, so I was worried about having to go out to an appointment this morning, that the roads might be icy. Then when I woke up I came to realize it did not even freeze overnight so the roads will be fine.

 

[Trailblazer]

Surely you are kidding.
The story is here. Luke 24:13-35

Anyone can write a 'story' and make it sound true.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

We cannot just choose to "do" anything we want to do just because we have free will. There are many things I would like to do but I also know that realistically I cannot do them, since I don't have the ability or the opportunity. That is another way that free will is constrained.

What do you mean?
Like, I can't just decide to fly away and / or defy gravity?

That's not a constrained of free will. That's a constrained of physics.

Free will is also constrained by my personality, which I cannot change, because it has already been developed. Some people think that just because I have a lot of money and I am healthy I can retire and "choose" to do anything I might want to do, like travel, but that is not so, because my life circumstances and personality prevent me from doing many things.

IOW: you simply don't want to. That's is different from being physically unable to make that choice. You could make that choice. You simply don't want to. Not the same as being unable to.

I don't think that behavior can be "predicted" by looking at the psychological profile of a person.

Facebook, and every other big data tech company, heavily disagrees.
Not only can they predict your behavior, they can even abuse your psychological profile to manipulate you into doing what they want you to do.

Just look at what Cambridge Analytica did with mere access to facebook user data. They literally made Brexit happen and brainwashed America into semi-worshipping Trump.

If you have enough data on someone to build up a comprehensive psychological profile, molding them and manipulating them into doing your bidding is actually not that hard. It tells you exactly which "buttons" you need to press for this manipulation to work. It's why big social media companies are worth billions of dollars and why advertising companies are so keen to pay millions of dollars to them for a bit of ad space.

Also consider mentalist magicians. "pick a card, any card". But you're not picking "any" card. You think you are, but really, you are picking exactly the card that they wanted you to pick.

 

[Trailblazer]

What do you mean?
Like, I can't just decide to fly away and / or defy gravity?

That's not a constrained of free will. That's a constrained of physics.

Yes, there are physical things we cannot do, as you noted, but there are also things we cannot do for psychological reasons. Even though it might be possible for me to retire and travel, given I have ample money and good health, I cannot do those things for psychological reasons that hold me back.

But sometimes people cannot do things that they might want to do because they don't have the ability. For example, a person might want to be a doctor, but not have what it takes.

A person might want a certain job, but they cannot get one because there is no job opportunities in that field.

IOW: you simply don't want to. That's is different from being physically unable to make that choice. You could make that choice. You simply don't want to. Not the same as being unable to.

I disagree that I could make that choice. I know I cannot make it because I know myself.

You are also right though. I am able to but I do not want to for certain reasons. Even though a part of me wants to the another part of me does not want to, which tends to create a conflict.

Facebook, and every other big data tech company, heavily disagrees.
Not only can they predict your behavior, they can even abuse your psychological profile to manipulate you into doing what they want you to do.

Maybe that would work with some people, but not with everyone. Even then, nobody can predict exact behaviors of individuals.

Just look at what Cambridge Analytica did with mere access to facebook user data. They literally made Brexit happen and brainwashed America into semi-worshipping Trump.

Yes, some people are gullible thus vulnerable to being brainwashed.

If you have enough data on someone to build up a comprehensive psychological profile, molding them and manipulating them into doing your bidding is actually not that hard. It tells you exactly which "buttons" you need to press for this manipulation to work.

That might work with some people but not with everyone. Some people are not subject to being manipulated by others.

Also, if they are aware of what is going on, they can spot people who are trying to manipulate them. This has happened to me on various dating sites. Before I was aware what the con men were trying to do I was a target, but once I was onto them I could spot them a mile away. I even identified them before the dating site profile managers did, after which time they were blocked from the site.

 

[ppp]

Suppose, He comes down from Sky, and declairs He is Christ!

To prove it, He will take you, to some of your loved ones grave, and resurrects them. Those are grandparents or some close relatives and friends, and you know they had passed away and were in that graves.

Now, please answer the Poll, based on this event. Assume it happend

You poll is broken. There is no "This is not convincing evidence that there is a god." option. The "I will not believe" option is deceptive twaddle.

How would my having the experience that you describe demonstrate that the cause of those experiences is a god?

 

[Trailblazer]

You poll is broken. There is no "This is not convincing evidence that there is a god." option. The "I will not believe" option is deceptive twaddle.

No, the poll is not broken.

One of the poll options was:

No, i will not believe, because.......(please explain)

You could have explained why .... "This is not convincing evidence that there is a god."

How would my having the experience that you describe demonstrate that the cause of those experiences is a god?

It wouldn't, not in my opinion.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Yes, there are physical things we cannot do, as you noted, but there are also things we cannot do for psychological reasons. Even though it might be possible for me to retire and travel, given I have ample money and good health, I cannot do those things for psychological reasons that hold me back.

This is self contradicting. If they are possible, then you can do them. You not wanting to do it is not the same as being incapable of it.
I can't even count the amount of times I heared people say "I would NEVER do that!" only to find out a year later they're doing exactly that.

Ever heared the phrase "never say never"?

But sometimes people cannot do things that they might want to do because they don't have the ability. For example, a person might want to be a doctor, but not have what it takes.
A person might want a certain job, but they cannot get one because there is no job opportunities in that field.

You are again being desengenous. These aren't things under their control. These are not options they can freely choose between because it is not fully within their control. I can choose to do a test to become an astronaut. I can not "choose" to pass said physical test. I can only choose to do my best.

I disagree that I could make that choice. I know I cannot make it because I know myself.

Desengenous again.
Not wanting to is not the same as being incapable to.

I could choose to take a knife and decapitate my children. I would not ever do such, but I COULD.
Again, you confuse "not wanting to" with "being incapable of doing so".

You are also right though. I am able to but I do not want to for certain reasons.

Right, so be more careful with your language. It matters to the point at hand.
Clearly you feel strongly about this retirement thing. So clearly, I could predict the expectation that you wouldn't retire in say the next 12 months. But can I be certain of that? NO. Because a lot can happen in those 12 months. You could change your mind - for whatever reason. You COULD decide to retire anyway.

That is what free will is. The ability to choose between options, even when it seems unlikely or outside of expectation.

Maybe that would work with some people, but not with everyone. Even then, nobody can predict exact behaviors of individuals.

All humans are susceptible to their human psychological weaknesses. Some more then others, sure. But nobody is completely immune to it. Especially not when caught off-guard.

Yes, some people are gullible thus vulnerable to being brainwashed.

It has very little to do with being gullible, actually. It has to do with exploiting human psychology. If you are human, you are susceptible to it.
That's why it works. They don't just target the "weak minded". They target whomever they have data on. Human psychology applies to all humans.

That might work with some people but not with everyone. Some people are not subject to being manipulated by others.

All humans are susceptible to human psychological weaknesses. The only way to be compleetely immune to that type of manupilation is to simply not spend time on those platforms and / or be educated on what goes on on those platforms.

Also, if they are aware of what is going on, they can spot people who are trying to manipulate them.

Indeed. The vast majority of users however are not aware of this.

 

[Audie]

This is self contradicting. If they are possible, then you can do them. You not wanting to do it is not the same as being incapable of it.
I can't even count the amount of times I heared people say "I would NEVER do that!" only to find out a year later they're doing exactly that.

Ever heared the phrase "never say never"?



You are again being desengenous. These aren't things under their control. These are not options they can freely choose between because it is not fully within their control. I can choose to do a test to become an astronaut. I can not "choose" to pass said physical test. I can only choose to do my best.



Desengenous again.
Not wanting to is not the same as being incapable to.

I could choose to take a knife and decapitate my children. I would not ever do such, but I COULD.
Again, you confuse "not wanting to" with "being incapable of doing so".



Right, so be more careful with your language. It matters to the point at hand.
Clearly you feel strongly about this retirement thing. So clearly, I could predict the expectation that you wouldn't retire in say the next 12 months. But can I be certain of that? NO. Because a lot can happen in those 12 months. You could change your mind - for whatever reason. You COULD decide to retire anyway.

That is what free will is. The ability to choose between options, even when it seems unlikely or outside of expectation.




All humans are susceptible to their human psychological weaknesses. Some more then others, sure. But nobody is completely immune to it. Especially not when caught off-guard.



It has very little to do with being gullible, actually. It has to do with exploiting human psychology. If you are human, you are susceptible to it.
That's why it works. They don't just target the "weak minded". They target whomever they have data on. Human psychology applies to all humans.



All humans are susceptible to human psychological weaknesses. The only way to be compleetely immune to that type of manupilation is to simply not spend time on those platforms and / or be educated on what goes on on those platforms.



Indeed. The vast majority of users however are not aware of this.

Vast majority of religionists for sure.

 

[Trailblazer]

This is self contradicting. If they are possible, then you can do them. You not wanting to do it is not the same as being incapable of it.
I can't even count the amount of times I heared people say "I would NEVER do that!" only to find out a year later they're doing exactly that.

Ever heared the phrase "never say never"?

Just because I am physically capable of doing something that does not mean I am psychologically capable of doing it.
I did not say I can NEVER retire or travel, I don't know what the future holds.

It is possible for you to believe in God. Does that mean that you can believe in God?

You are again being desengenous. These aren't things under their control. These are not options they can freely choose between because it is not fully within their control. I can choose to do a test to become an astronaut. I can not "choose" to pass said physical test. I can only choose to do my best.

That was my point. What is disingenuous about it?

Desengenous again.
Not wanting to is not the same as being incapable to.

I could choose to take a knife and decapitate my children. I would not ever do such, but I COULD.
Again, you confuse "not wanting to" with "being incapable of doing so".

Okay, let me restate that. I could make that choice. I know I will not make it for various reasons.
Just like you will not take a knife and decapitate your children for various reasons.

Right, so be more careful with your language. It matters to the point at hand.
Clearly you feel strongly about this retirement thing. So clearly, I could predict the expectation that you wouldn't retire in say the next 12 months. But can I be certain of that? NO. Because a lot can happen in those 12 months. You could change your mind - for whatever reason. You COULD decide to retire anyway.

That is what free will is. The ability to choose between options, even when it seems unlikely or outside of expectation.

I agree with all of that.

All humans are susceptible to their human psychological weaknesses. Some more then others, sure. But nobody is completely immune to it. Especially not when caught off-guard.

I can also agree with that. I was caught completely off guard with the con men on dating sites. I did not even know such men existed since I was never on a dating site before, but after I was on to them I was never off guard again.

It has very little to do with being gullible, actually. It has to do with exploiting human psychology. If you are human, you are susceptible to it.
That's why it works. They don't just target the "weak minded". They target whomever they have data on. Human psychology applies to all humans.

Again, I agree. For example, a good friend of mine who is highly intelligent fell prey to a scammer who promised him a lot of money they told him he won in a sweepstakes. Luckily, he was able to recuperate the money he gave them.

All humans are susceptible to human psychological weaknesses. The only way to be compleetely immune to that type of manupilation is to simply not spend time on those platforms and / or be educated on what goes on on those platforms.

That's true. I don't go on platforms but on dating sites I am always on guard now that I know how many con men there are.

I could tell you a funny story of the first man on a dating site who tried to con me out of my money. It was not funny at the time but the way it ended was funny, since I called him on his game.

Even before I knew he was a con man I thought he was just being very inappropriate, asking me for money, and a lot of people I told also did not suspect he was a con man. But even though I did not know that at the time, there was no way I was going to give him any money. He was counting on his belief that I was in love with him so I would do anything for him, and he knew about my financial assets, so he thought that the amount he asked for, 8,000 dollars, was just a drop in the bucket. But that was not the point. I would NEVER give money to a man I met on a dating site, that is just common sense.

Indeed. The vast majority of users however are not aware of this.

That is true and it is also sad. A lot of people get taken. That same man I mentioned above did get money from at least one other woman. I found that out by contacting the dating site profile manager.

 

[Trailblazer]

One of us is completely wrong.
I believe it is you.
I believe satan exists and you do not, despite what the Bible says on the subject.
2Cor 11:13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15 It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness.

Sounds like it could have been Satan who appeared to Baha'u'llah according to that. But if it was Satan then he has, apart from all those other things that deny the Bible, also said that he does not exist. So Satan cannot have deceived Baha'u'llah I guess.

One of us is completely wrong.
I believe it is you.

If my beliefs are right then there is no such entity as Satan, so Christians are also wrong about that.

“God is loving to all. Shall we be unjust or unkind to anyone? Is this allowable in the sight of God? God provides for all. Is it befitting for us to prevent the flow of His merciful provisions for mankind? God has created all in His image and likeness. Shall we manifest hatred for His creatures and servants? This would be contrary to the will of God and according to the will of Satan, by which we mean the natural inclinations of the lower nature. “This lower nature in man is symbolized as Satan—the evil ego within us, not an evil personality outside.” ​

The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 287​

​

“The reality underlying this question is that the evil spirit, Satan or whatever is interpreted as evil, refers to the lower nature in man. This baser nature is symbolized in various ways. In man there are two expressions, one is the expression of nature, the other the expression of the spiritual realm…. God has never created an evil spirit; all such ideas and nomenclature are symbols expressing the mere human or earthly nature of man. It is an essential condition of the soil of earth that thorns, weeds and fruitless trees may grow from it. Relatively speaking, this is evil; it is simply the lower state and baser product of nature.”​

Abdu’l-Baha, Promulgation of Universal Peace, pp. 294–295.​

Baha'u'llah also said things about Satan, referring to him as the Evil One. The Evil One, which is symbolized by Satan, is the lower nature of man, which is waiting to entrap us, if our thoughts are centered on our own selves, rather than on the Well-Beloved, which is God.

“Say: O people! The Lamp of God is burning; take heed, lest the fierce winds of your disobedience extinguish its light. Now is the time to arise and magnify the Lord, your God. Strive not after bodily comforts, and keep your heart pure and stainless. The Evil One is lying in wait, ready to entrap you. Gird yourselves against his wicked devices, and, led by the light of the name of the one true God, deliver yourselves from the darkness that surroundeth you. Center your thoughts in the Well-Beloved, rather than in your own selves.”​

Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 167-168​

​

“How high the reward of him that hath not deprived himself of so great a bounty, nor failed to recognize the beauty of his Best-Beloved in this, His new attire. Watch over yourselves, for the Evil One is lying in wait, ready to entrap you. Gird yourselves against his wicked devices, and, led by the light of the name of the All-Seeing God, make your escape from the darkness that surroundeth you. Let your vision be world-embracing, rather than confined to your own self. The Evil One is he that hindereth the rise and obstructeth the spiritual progress of the children of men.”​

Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 94​

The Evil One is our selfish desire. That is what Satan symbolizes.

Matthew 16:23-26 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men. Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?​

Jesus was not talking to a real entity called Satan; Jesus was saying to Peter that the things that are not of God but are rather of men (selfish desires) are offensive to Him, so they are evil. Satan symbolizes evil. Then Jesus tells His disciples to deny their selfish desires and to follow in His Way. For whoever will live for their selfish desires shall lose his eternal life, but whoever will sacrifice his life for the sake of Jesus and God shall gain eternal life. It is the soul that gets eternal life, not the body.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

One of us is completely wrong.
I believe it is you.
I believe satan exists and you do not, despite what the Bible says on the subject.
2Cor 11:13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15 It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness.

Sounds like it could have been Satan who appeared to Baha'u'llah according to that. But if it was Satan then he has, apart from all those other things that deny the Bible, also said that he does not exist. So Satan cannot have deceived Baha'u'llah I guess.

What substantial evidence do you have that Satan exists outside of the confines of the Bible and Christian belief?

 

[Viker]

Suppose, He comes down from Sky, and declairs He is Christ!

To prove it, He will take you, to some of your loved ones grave, and resurrects them. Those are grandparents or some close relatives and friends, and you know they had passed away and were in that graves.

Now, please answer the Poll, based on this event. Assume it happend

How would I know that this is not the work of a (deceptive) alien species? You said, "He comes down from the sky". All it could prove or demonstrate is the possibility of a technologically advanced extraterrestrial civilization. There'd have to be another way a Christ figure would be able to communicate with me.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

How would I know that this is not the work of a (deceptive) alien species? You said, "He comes down from the sky". All it could prove or demonstrate is the possibility of a technologically advanced extraterrestrial civilization. There'd have to be another way a Christ figure would be able to communicate with me.

Not just that he comes from sky. He resurrects any of your close friends or loved ones who passed away. They come out of their graves, and talk to you. You will know, it is indeed them who had died.
Now what?

 

[Viker]

Not just that he comes from sky. He resurrects any of your close friends or loved ones who passed away. They come out of their graves, and talk to you. You will know, it is indeed them who had died.
Now what?

This is not outside of the realm of human imagination. So an alien civilization, if at all possible one that advanced existed, could have the ability to raise the dead. It would be impressive that they could talk to me or anyone.

I would ask my nana a lot of questions. Things only she would know.

But I would need better confirmation that it was Jesus Christ that rose them. If it were Jesus, he'd know what else could be done or said. Raising my loved ones is not enough.

 

[Brian2]

What substantial evidence do you have that Satan exists outside of the confines of the Bible and Christian belief?

I have just hearsay evidence for Satan, nothing that you might call substantial.

 

[Left Coast]

What substantial evidence do you have that Satan exists outside of the confines of the Bible and Christian belief?

Tbh, the evidence I've seen for Satan or demons is at about the same level as the evidence I've seen for ghosts.

 

[Trailblazer]

Tbh, the evidence I've seen for Satan or demons is at about the same level as the evidence I've seen for ghosts.

I think there is more evidence for ghosts than for Satan.
There s NO evidence for an entity called Satan, but there is evidence for ghosts.
Nobody has ever seen Satan, but people have seen ghosts.