dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
I will appreciate it when there is progress in the opposite direction.
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Abrahamic only: What is this all about?
- Thread starter David1967
- Start date
I will appreciate it when there is progress in the opposite direction.
Why don't YOU describe what YOU think about the actions addressed in Israel Hayom and Times of Israel?
We have distinctly different views of progress. Now, about post #23 ...
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Because I haven't read it yet. I was working on figuring out the assualt allegation which is much much more important. And I don't trust you to bring unbiased information. So, it'll take some time to figure that out. Not only that, you assume that I'm white-washing, you assume those who are spitting are disjusting jerks, but you clearly didn't watch the video. Your opinions go to the bottom of the barrel.
Honestly your posts appear to be a distraction. A dodge. We have video of the spitting. It's in the OP. I think we should go ahead and discuss that. If you are able and willing to do so.
Otherwise, please enjoy reinforcing the "evil religious Jew" stereotype. <--- sarcasm.
dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
OK, let's look at what you brought.
Where's the details? What actually happened? What were the Christians doing? What were the Jews doing?
Meanwhile what?
That doesn't say anything about the circumstances of the spitting, who's doing it and why. It's just blah-blah-blah political advertising.
Jay. This is the same exact incident that was posted in the OP. Now it's clear you don't know what you're talking about. You are repeat posting the same thing making it look worse than it is. You're in propagandist territory.
You really really don't care about accuracy, do you?
*Mod edit*
What you're observing is, I take these things seriously. And the simple fact that I get ridiculed by you for knowing more and doing more tells me...
I'm doing something right. Your attitude, imo, IS part of the problem. A big part.
Yeah. It is "your bad".
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ignore-list
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dybmh
דניאל יוסף בן מאיר הירש
Typical. Conversing with you is like a brick wall anyway. It's better this way. When you post hatred. I can expose it without any snide nonsense replies.
John D. Brey
Well-Known Member
From what I've read in this thread, I tend to agree with dybmh. And not just because I like him. I think his approach is correct. I don't think it's a crime for Jews to have harsh feelings toward Christians or Christianity. I don't think it's a crime for them to board up a window if it's primary view is of a giant cross on a cathedral. I don't think it's a crime for them to register animosity. I think it's healthy and good, honest, and true.
In a recent statement Netanyahu pointed out that the Bible says there's a time for war and a time for peace. He then shocked some more humanistically minded people by saying now is a time for war. The only place I disagree with him is that it was probably a time for war long ago.
I think there's a time and place for Christians and Jews to be peaceful toward one another, and also a time and place for them to register their animosity for one another. I'd rather be spit on by a Jew who studies the Talmud and believe what it says with all his heart mind and soul than be kissed by a milquetoast secular Jew who's worldview and religion is a subset of Rodney King's famous quip.
John
I agree with you that it's certainly not a crime to have harsh feelings towards someone. It's how a person manifests those feelings. And ,no, it's not ok to spit at or on someone. Here in the US where I live, that is considered assault.
The incident in the video took place during the Jewish festival of Sukkot, as you can see from the Jews carrying the luluv (palm branch) and citrons (a type of fruit) in the streets. Unfortunately, there was a Christian holiday that had coincided with Sukkot, as you can see in the video from the Christians carrying the huge cross pass the Jews in the street.
The Jews were not spitting on the Christians. They were spitting on the ground. The purpose is not to spit on something (or, God forbid, on someone) -- it is to spit out something. The intention of the spitting is to cleanse the mouth of speaking about idol worship. This is a very old practice that is even done within some shuls during the prayer of the Aleinu (the concluding prayer of the service) where Jews acknowledge that we shun all forms of idol worship. I'm sorry if it offends some Christians that Jews view Jesus as an idol, but we would cease to be Jews if we were obliged to accept Jesus as being a god.
The practice of spitting is explained by Jay Litvin (An American Jew who moved to Israel in 1993 to serve as medical liaison for Chabad's Children of Chernobyl program, and took a leading role in airlifting children from the areas contaminated by the Chernobyl nuclear disaster):
"I want to give you the explanation I received about why we spit. It's really pretty simple. I was told that we spit because after we use our mouths to speak about idol worship, we want to cleanse our mouths from the spit that participated in speaking these words before speaking about bowing down to G‑d. Furthermore, since we are prohibited from taking any benefit from idol worship, we don't want to benefit from the spit, by swallowing it, after it's participated in speaking these words. And finally, it creates a hephsek, a separation between speaking of bowing to vanity and nothingness and bending the knee...before the supreme King of kings."
Yes, when done on a public street in front of Christians it is unfortunately perceived as both a hateful and a nasty practice. I am not defending those Haredim who do this -- I am only explaining why they are compelled to spit on the ground (as a precaution against swallowing the saliva in their mouths). I won't say that there aren't some who might take the practice to unnecessary extremes, because there are always those to be found in every religion who will take things to unnecessary extremes.
For anyone interested in reading Jay Litvin's article, you can click on this link:
The Jews were not spitting on the Christians. They were spitting on the ground. The purpose is not to spit on something (or, God forbid, on someone) -- it is to spit out something. The intention of the spitting is to cleanse the mouth of speaking about idol worship. This is a very old practice that is even done within some shuls during the prayer of the Aleinu (the concluding prayer of the service) where Jews acknowledge that we shun all forms of idol worship. I'm sorry if it offends some Christians that Jews view Jesus as an idol, but we would cease to be Jews if we were obliged to accept Jesus as being a god.
The practice of spitting is explained by Jay Litvin (An American Jew who moved to Israel in 1993 to serve as medical liaison for Chabad's Children of Chernobyl program, and took a leading role in airlifting children from the areas contaminated by the Chernobyl nuclear disaster):
"I want to give you the explanation I received about why we spit. It's really pretty simple. I was told that we spit because after we use our mouths to speak about idol worship, we want to cleanse our mouths from the spit that participated in speaking these words before speaking about bowing down to G‑d. Furthermore, since we are prohibited from taking any benefit from idol worship, we don't want to benefit from the spit, by swallowing it, after it's participated in speaking these words. And finally, it creates a hephsek, a separation between speaking of bowing to vanity and nothingness and bending the knee...before the supreme King of kings."
Yes, when done on a public street in front of Christians it is unfortunately perceived as both a hateful and a nasty practice. I am not defending those Haredim who do this -- I am only explaining why they are compelled to spit on the ground (as a precaution against swallowing the saliva in their mouths). I won't say that there aren't some who might take the practice to unnecessary extremes, because there are always those to be found in every religion who will take things to unnecessary extremes.
For anyone interested in reading Jay Litvin's article, you can click on this link:
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John D. Brey
Well-Known Member
As Rachael implies in message #32, cultural and religio-cultural differences often cause consternation and animosity simply by misunderstanding or misrepresenting the meaning implied or signified by an act. Jewish and Christian culture are founded in some ways on similar ideas, and in other ways utterly contradicting ideas. So the cultures develop signs and symbols, acts and rituals, which can often be misinterpreted from the vantage point of someone from the other culture or religion. Imagine a Jew being made to take the Eucharist as he's being told the wine is the blood of a male Jew, and the bread is his body. He's likely to throw up making a real mess of the sanctity of the moment. Godforbid he be taught the doctrine of Transubstantiation prior to his taking the cup and the bread.
John
Teaching quality material is always better than arrest.
'Stop' is the key term.
"We’re all brothers, we’re all of the same people.”.......... Is the universal for mankind.
I agree with you here.
No problem here either, depending on how they demonstrate said animosity.
Completely disagree with you here. Humans should not be like llamas who spit at people to show their anger. Suppose the role was reversed and a Christian spit at an ultra orthodox Jew because he thought that they deserved it for not accepting Jesus as their Messiah. Would you still defend it? Or suppose a person of Muslim faith were to spit at an ultra Orthodox Jew because he felt it his right to do so because they didn't accept that Mohammed was a prophet of God. Would you defend that action? I certainly hope not. Spitting at, on, or in the direction of anyone of any faith is wrong, rude and unacceptable. Decent mutual respect for others whether they are of a different race, religion or culture would be a great step in the right direction. This spitting nonsense is not acceptable or right in any way. And I am glad that the Israeli authorities are doing their best to put a stop to it.
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Since it was obviously a religiously based invective, would you agree that it could be an incendiary action?
Oh, let me assure you, we have had worse done to us by Christians for not accepting Jesus as Messiah. I don't think I need to go into it here, as I would be surprised if you or or anyone else were unable to acknowledge this.
If you would have taken the time to read what I wrote above in my previous post, or clicked on the link to the article at Chabad.org that I provided, you might have been able to understand that the spitting is not done out of "anger." It is done because being suddenly confronted with an object of idol worship (and, to the Jews in the midst of observing Sukkot, that would have been the super-sized cross being squeezed onto the narrow street of Jerusalem at the exact time that the Jewish procession was coming through) means that the saliva in one's mouth from speaking or being confronted with an item of idol worship must be expelled and not swallowed. This is why they spit directly on the ground. It is something that is done even within the synagogue itself, in front of other Jews, when reference to idol worship is made.
However, I agree with you that the Israeli authorities are probably making a good call in their efforts to stop the practice in public, since it clearly causes so much bad will from those who take offense (whether they be Christians or merely people who watch YouTube videos without context). It is a shame, though, that the offended are incapable of seeing how their own actions are can be offensive, as well -- such as those actions of the many who come to Jerusalem for the specific purpose of proselytizing to Jews. Or who choose the precise moment (with their cell phones in hand for recording) to provocatively step out into a Jewish religious procession while carrying their humungous cross (as did those in the video).
And here's some additional background information for you. Those Christians in that video were emerging from the Church of the Flagellation, a church in Jerusalem that was originally built by the Crusaders. If the word "Crusaders" holds no significance for you in regard to Judaism (and Islam, as well), then you can Google it.
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Since it was obviously a religiously based invective, would you agree that it could be an incendiary action?
I used to think ultra orthodox Jews were so very nice until one spit on a friend because of religious differences and ran away and another threatened me with harm.
That is true that murder is worse than spitting. And the history of differences between religion is awful.
YoursTrue
Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I know atrocities were and are committing by religious groups against other religious groups. I am looking forward to the fulfillment of the prophecies that state all wars and hatred will cease.
Alien826
No religious beliefs
Pardon me if I lighten the mood with a joke. Let's see if anyone can work this out. I had to have to have it explained when I first heard it.
An old lady went to the Zoo.
There was a sign "Beware the Llama spits".
And she was.
You and me both. I've always said that if a persons religious beliefs cause them to be mean to others, it's best not to have those beliefs at all.