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How can you be a True Christian™ if you don't take the Eden story literally?

Sgt. Pepper

All you need is love.
I believe the Bible is factual.

I believe Jews do not have the Holy Spirit to guide them into the truth.

It doesn't appear to me that the Holy Spirit is guiding the smorgasbord of Christians into the truth either, considering how divided they are about what the Bible says and teaches. Oddly enough, some Christians claim that their interpretation of the Bible and church doctrines is solely correct while adamantly insisting that other Christians who don't uphold the same church doctrines and scriptural interpretation are clearly wrong in their beliefs because of their church doctrines and interpretation of the Bible. In my opinion, it stands to reason that the Bible isn't clear enough for Christians to interpret it correctly, which is why Christianity is divided into a plethora of diverse sects made up of Anglicans, Roman Catholics, Messianic Jews, Orthodox Christians (Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, Ethiopian Orthodox, Greek Orthodox), and a vast smorgasbord of Protestants: Baptists, Methodists, Nazarenes, Lutherans, Pentecostals, Mennonites, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Seventh-day Adventists, and so many other Protestants attending churches with very distinctive official doctrines and interpretations of the Bible. As a matter of fact, the division among Christians is as old as Christianity itself (1 Corinthians 1:10–17).

I realize that I'm stating the obvious about how Christians believe and adhere to diverse biblical interpretations and church doctrines, such as Calvinism vs. Arminianism (unconditional salvation vs. conditional salvation), properly baptizing believers (fully immersed in water vs. sprinkled with water), whether it is biblical for women to be pastors or not, the alleged end times and determining whether or not there would be a rapture of Christians, as well as when it will occur (pre-tribulation, mid-tribulation, post-tribulation), and the persistent dispute over which Christians are actually genuine followers of Jesus and which ones are not (i.e., Who are the Jehovah’s Witnesses and what are their beliefs?). And the list goes on. Why can't Christians agree with each other?

So, Muffled, in your opinion, which of these Christian sects I listed or any of the others I didn't mention are being led into the truth by the Holy Spirit? I'm sure that all of these Christians believe that they are saved, guided by the Holy Spirit, and are genuine followers of Jesus. According to Romans 10:8–13, whoever declares with their mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believes in their heart that God raised him from the dead will be saved. Not only that, but they are justified by the belief in their heart and the profession of their faith in Jesus, and they won't be put to shame. In fact, verse 13 states, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." However, there appear to be obvious loopholes in this seemingly hopeful biblical promise, such as the implication that a person could still be stripped of their salvation if they don't follow God's will. I'm referring to Jesus' parable of the sheep and goats (Matthew 25:31–46) and his clear warning: "Not everyone who says to me, "Lord, Lord," will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven" (Matthew 7:21). In my opinion, these scriptures demonstrate that even though a person has repented and asked God to forgive them of their sins, they could still lose their salvation if they don't follow God's will. Herein lies another inconsistent message in the Bible, in my opinion, as Romans 10:8–13 plainly states that a person will be saved if they declare with their mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in their heart that God raised Jesus from the dead.
 
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Trailblazer

Veteran Member
The problems is that you could never support the claim that his message was "evidence'. Your argument was at best very close to "I like his message" even if that was not exactly right.
I never said that his message was "evidence" although I said that His Writings in their entirety were part of the evidence that support His claim.
But meanwhile you are off topic again.
So let's stay on topic. :)
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Thank you very much. Then if a person raped someone else he could have changed that person's personality at the onset so that person never raped. He had to know from the beginning that Gary Ridgway was going to be a mass murderer but he still made him the way that he did.
Now is when I am going to start disagreeing with you. A person is born with a hereditary predisposition and after they are born their personality develops over the course of their lifetime. Personality is influenced by a combination of factors such as childhood upbringing, education, adult experiences, and life circumstances.

If God made a person's personality at the onset so that person never raped or did anything bad then God would be creating mere robots.
It is our free will choices combined with our life experiences that we cannot control that make us who we are.
 

Orbit

I'm a planet
Now is when I am going to start disagreeing with you. A person is born with a hereditary predisposition and after they are born their personality develops over the course of their lifetime. Personality is influenced by a combination of factors such as childhood upbringing, education, adult experiences, and life circumstances.

If God made a person's personality at the onset so that person never raped or did anything bad then God would be creating mere robots.
It is our free will choices combined with our life experiences that we cannot control that make us who we are.

Can I ask a question here? If God knows what you will choose, what is the point of letting you "choose" it? Doesn't that suggest predestination?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
It doesn't appear to me that the Holy Spirit is guiding the smorgasbord of Christians into the truth either, considering how divided they are about what the Bible says and teaches.
If the Holy Spirit is guiding all the Christians He must have a multiple personality disorder. I have been pointing this out to Christians for years but not one of them ever understood why I said that.
 

CG Didymus

Veteran Member
I know. I do not argue that Baha has been proven not to be a messenger, I just point out that there is no reliable evidence for him being a messenger. "I like his message" is not evidence. It may be a well deserved sentiment. But That is not evidence for a person being a messenger.
It's the same thing with those Christians, the fundy ones. They love Jesus and Jesus loves them. Then comes the beliefs that supports the claim that he is the savior and died to pay for their sins and all the rest.

Number one, fundamental and foundational belief is... The Bible is literally true. But in some places an interpretation is necessary. And the fundy interpretation is also literally true. Like the serpent was really Satan.

A fundy Christian knows the truth God and Jesus because what is said about them in the Bible and the NT are the absolute truth.

Now comes the Baha'is... They know the truth, because what their prophet said in his writings are the truth. Even though they contradict what is said in the Bible and the NT. But... does it really contradict them? For the Baha'is, not really, because those stories in the Bible and NT were meant to be taken symbolically.

Amazing, believers in any religion can make whatever they want to believe into the absolute, undeniable, yet unprovable, truth. And, of course, if we wanted to see it, we could see it too. All we need is spiritual eyes. And I agree. If I saw things like they do I'd believe it too. If I saw things like a fundy Christian, I'd believe in Creation and the Flood and in Jesus. If I saw things like a Baha'i, I see how Baha'u'llah was the manifestation for today. And so on with any religion. They all sound true and become true to the believer. So, the problem must be with the non-believer. They're just so blind.
 

ppp

Well-Known Member
In my opinion, the predestination scriptures in the Bible of God selecting individuals for salvation seemingly contradict the arguments for free will.
Given an omniscient omnipotent creator, it would not matter if we have free will. If we have free will, God still put us here knowing exactly what we would freely choose to do. It is functionally identical to being a puppet.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Can I ask a question here? If God knows what you will choose, what is the point of letting you "choose" it? Doesn't that suggest predestination?
The point of letting us choose is so we can thereby develop our personality. God knows how that will proceed, but God does not influence our choices. God is like a bystander watching our every move, although He knows what moves we will make.

Fate and predestination is whole different subject. Some things that happen to us we cannot choose and those are our fate. God is all-knowiwng so God knows what is written on the Tablet of Fate, which is a combination of what we chose throughout life that determined our fate as well as what we did not choose, things that happened to us that were beyond our control, many of which were the result of other peoples' choices that affected us.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
In my opinion, the predestination scriptures in the Bible of God selecting individuals for salvation seemingly contradict the arguments for free will.
I am not sure what scriptures you are referring to but I do not believe that God selects individuals for salvation. I believe that God allows people to freely choose.
 

ppp

Well-Known Member
The point of letting us choose is so we can thereby develop our personality. God knows how that will proceed, but God does not influence our choices. God is like a bystander watching our every move, although He knows what moves we will make.

Fate and predestination is whole different subject. Some things that happen to us we cannot choose and those are our fate. God is all-knowiwng so God knows what is written on the Tablet of Fate, which is a combination of what we chose throughout life that determined our fate as well as what we did not choose, things that happened to us that were beyond our control, many of which were the result of other peoples' choices that affected us.
Might as well create us with the personality that we will develop in the end.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Given an omniscient omnipotent creator, it would not matter if we have free will. If we have free will, God still put us here knowing exactly what we would freely choose to do. It is functionally identical to being a puppet.
Thee is no causal relationship between what God knows we will choose to do and what we will choose to do.
God's knowledge does not cause anything to happen, it is an attribute of God.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I am not sure what scriptures you are referring to but I do not believe that God selects individuals for salvation. I believe that God allows people to freely choose.
Why don't you both ask the spirits of the dead what they think?
 

ppp

Well-Known Member
Thee is no causal relationship between what God knows we will choose to do and what we will choose to do.
So? What has that got to do with what I said. You are arguing against your expectations. Nothing to do with me.

God's knowledge does not cause anything to happen, it is an attribute of God.
So, if God were an ignorant buffon, then everything would be exactly as it is now?
 
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