If Christ wasn't the messiah, what was he?

[rubi]

Do I have this information correct?

The correct definition is "young woman". Do you have a place where young woman is used in the sense of married to a man?

for how long Josef and Mary were married. or they were about to get married?

 

[rubi]

I understand there are things in Christianity you don't think make sense from a Jewish perspective. There are things about Judaism that make no sense to me. I was replying to your comment that Christians are Christian because they're raised that way, when the same is true for you.

I really try to empathize with other religions, especially those which are very similar to mine.

I imagine what it may sound to Jews, whenever a Christian says that Jesus is God.
I have never thought of Jesus as someone different than God. Or God as someone different than Jesus.

According to a historical perspective, historians will tell you there were countless of Jewish prophets or leaders who were called Messiah, in that period. He was just one of many.

case and point

 

[Left Coast]

case and point

Case and point of what? That people share the biases they were raised with? Yes, that's true.

 

[Kenny]

for how long Josef and Mary were married. or they were about to get married?

We are talking about the TaNaKh and not those scriptures that I call NT. So can you answer the question?

 

[rosends]

I really try to empathize with other religions, especially those which are very similar to mine.

I imagine what it may sound to Jews, whenever a Christian says that Jesus is God.
I have never thought of Jesus as someone different than God. Or God as someone different than Jesus.

According to a historical perspective, historians will tell you there were countless Jewish prophets or leaders who were called Messiah, in that period. He was just one of many.

I would hope that historians would not tell you that. While in one situation, prophets are refered to as "my anointed ones" that would have been well before Jesus' lifespan (about 1000 years earlier). Prophecy, according to Judaism, ended some 300 years before the common era.

 

[rubi]

as a person that lives in Israel, I came to know the dynamics that one goes through while transitioning from one definition of himself to another. In this insight I came to know that the time gap is approximately 15 years. so I have no expectation of complete transformation out of any of you.

We are talking about the TaNaKh and not those scriptures that I call NT. So can you answer the question?

I want to answer. but first I need to know things. how was it revealed that Mary gave birth while being a virgin? for how long Josef and Mary were married. or they were about to get married?

 

[Kenny]

I want to answer. but first I need to know things. how was it revealed that Mary gave birth while being a virgin? for how long Josef and Mary were married. or they were about to get married?

I really don't want to move the goal post.

The reason that I asked this was that I saw that the Christian bible translates wrong the word "העלמה" as "a virgin" and as "the young woman".

What is it suppose to be translated as? If none of the two, what? If "young woman" - my question stands.

 

[Kenny]

Biological son? Was Adam a biological son?

@rubi - and don't forget this question.

 

[rubi]

I would hope that historians would not tell you that. While in one situation, prophets are refered to as "my anointed ones" that would have been well before Jesus' lifespan (about 1000 years earlier). Prophecy, according to Judaism, ended some 300 years before the common era.

prophecy has never ended. it is written it was given to fools, but it was never taken from the prophets. according to Jewish scholars, there were 1.2 million prophets in the biblical time. which brings me to an insight I had.
we all agree that then the halacha was the law and God's will.
we know that prophets had so much power that they could face kings, they had the public's ear and I don't recall anything else but understandably they had very significant and representative roles in the nation life.
we know they were very educated and very rightous. which make me conlude that the prophets were Rabbis. In Judaism, we know that Elijah was definatly a rabbi

 

[rubi]

I really don't want to move the goal post.



What is it suppose to be translated as? If none of the two, what? If "young woman" - my question stands.

trust me. I will answer that.

 

[Kenny]

trust me. I will answer that.

I am in great anticipation of your answer. don't want stump you. I certainly have no problem with answering your question when you answer mine.

 

[rubi]

I am in great anticipation of your answer. don't want stump you. I certainly have no problem with answering your question when you answer mine.

the short answer is that I don't have the software to scan the whole Tanach to find all the times that the word "עלמה" appears. if you want to know that the word בתולה means a virgin I can address you to Genesis 24:16

 

[Kenny]

the short answer is that I don't have the software to scan the whole Tanach to find all the times that the word "עלמה" appears. if you want to know that the word בתולה means a virgin I can address you to Genesis 24:16

With today's capacity on the internet -I'm a little surprised. But you didn't answer the question on Isaiah.

You gave me an answer for the word - B@thuwlah (Forgive the internet if not correctly spelled) but we are addressing Isaiah 7:14 which is the word `almah and the question was if there is a place where it is referring to a non-virgin.

We all make mistakes so hopefully I clarified it. (I probably didn't express myself well enough)

 

[pearl]

Recently, I had a thought-provoking discussion with a spokesman from a Christian institute on youtube, and it led me to ponder how difficult to discern Christ's true nature without understanding Hebrew.

Not only difficult but impossible, just as is not possible to understand the Christian Testament without Exodus.

Just for the sake of discussion, if Christ wasn't the Messiah, what was he?

Some theologians have it that the historical man named 'Jesus' was an eschatological Jewish prophet whose original disciples(A.D. 30's) knew him only as such, and whom the post-apostolic (i.e. non-apostolic) Hellenistic church (late first century A.D.) deified as the Son of God: "Jesus proclaimed the Kingdom of God...,...the kerygma of the Hellenistic church proclaimed Jesus as the crucified and risen Christ", recognizing the two predominating cultural influences which shaped each New Testament document: [a] the historical Jesus dressed in the mythical garb of the Gnostic "heavenly redeemer"
Rudolph Bultmann

 

[rubi]

With today's capacity on the internet -I'm a little surprised. But you didn't answer the question on Isaiah.

You gave me an answer for the word - B@thuwlah (Forgive the internet if not correctly spelled) but we are addressing Isaiah 7:14 which is the word `almah and the question was if there is a place where it is referring to a non-virgin.

We all make mistakes so hopefully I clarified it. (I probably didn't express myself well enough)

Proverbs 30:19
the way of an eagle in the sky,
the way of a snake on a rock,
the way of a ship on the high seas,
and the way of a man with a young woman.

 

[rosends]

prophecy has never ended. it is written it was given to fools, but it was never taken from the prophets. according to Jewish scholars, there were 1.2 million prophets in the biblical time. which brings me to an insight I had.
we all agree that then the halacha was the law and God's will.
we know that prophets had so much power that they could face kings, they had the public's ear and I don't recall anything else but understandably they had very significant and representative roles in the nation life.
we know they were very educated and very rightous. which make me conlude that the prophets were Rabbis. In Judaism, we know that Elijah was definatly a rabbi

Yoma 9b reads כִּדְתַנְיָא: מִשֶּׁמֵּתוּ נְבִיאִים הָאַחֲרוֹנִים חַגַּי זְכַרְיָה וּמַלְאָכִי נִסְתַּלְּקָה רוּחַ הַקֹּדֶשׁ מִיִּשְׂרָאֵל, וַעֲדַיִין הָיוּ מִשְׁתַּמְּשִׁין בְּבַת קוֹל.
formal propehcy ceased
Bava Basra 12a discusses the cessation of all forms of prophecy by the destruction of the temple, but that would just be the cessation after the period of substantial decline (in that, if you check the Ramban there, what is called "prophecy" is more like an inspired understanding of the right answer to a halachic issue -- אעפ"י שנטלה נבואת הנביאים שהוא המראה והחזון נבואת החכמים שהיא בדרך החכמה לא נטלה אלא יודעים האמת ברוח הקדש)
On 12b R' Yochanan's statement about imbeciles and children is shown but he is referring to after the destruction of the FIRST temple (see the Chiddushei Aggadot -- מיום שחרב בהמ"ק ראשון קאמר דבבית שני לא היו נביאים אלא בתחלת בנינו היו חגי זכריה ומלאכי) and the "prophecy" that children and imbeciles have is sourced quite differently ("אבל נבואת השוטים ותינוקות אינו אלא ע"י שד"). The two examples of "prophecy" on B"B 12b show the totally different nature of "prophecy" -- more like "wild prediction."
As to the question of what constitutes a "rabbi" there is much discussion. Classical smicha? Just being a teacher (rav umanhig)? Something else?

 

[rosends]

With today's capacity on the internet -I'm a little surprised.

A concordance is indeed available online (if you have a subscription)

the question was if there is a place where it is referring to a non-virgin.

There are places where it is used for a young woman and her sexual history is immaterial. That's the point -- there is a technical word for when the text wants to indicate virginity status, and a word for when it doesn't want to include that status. In Isaiah, the non-"virgin" word was chosen. The question shouldn't be "where does almah mean non-virgin" -- it should be "where does almah specifically mean virgin?" Since in no other use does it indicate virginity, why would it in Isaiah?

 

[Kenny]

Proverbs 30:19
the way of an eagle in the sky,
the way of a snake on a rock,
the way of a ship on the high seas,
and the way of a man with a young woman.

Thank you! I guess that is up to interpretation. A maid, or young woman, is usually of married age... and not yet married. Are I correct?

I will be answering your question now.

 

[Kenny]

A concordance is indeed available online (if you have a subscription)

There are places where it is used for a young woman and her sexual history is immaterial. That's the point -- there is a technical word for when the text wants to indicate virginity status, and a word for when it doesn't want to include that status. In Isaiah, the non-"virgin" word was chosen. The question shouldn't be "where does almah mean non-virgin" -- it should be "where does almah specifically mean virgin?" Since in no other use does it indicate virginity, why would it in Isaiah?

Exactly. Generally speaking it is only referred to one who is not yet married. What we do know is that the Hebraic experts translated it as virgin in the Septuagint which was widely used in the time of Jesus. Apparently they had a different viewpoint of its meaning than today's modern understanding.

 

[HonestJoe]

Just for the sake of discussion, if Christ wasn't the Messiah, what was he?

A very naughty boy.

(Sorry, someone had to )