Ukraine celebrates Victory Day

[Estro Felino]

@Estro Felino Let's say that there is a monkey who frequently tosses feces, but on rare occasion will toss a chocolate. Would you catch it all in your mouth just to make sure you get the chocolate?

Americans never speak of what happened between 2014 and 2022.
This implies relying on a very partial version of the story.

 

[Father Heathen]

Americans never speak of what happened between 2014 and 2022.
This implies relying on a very partial version of the story.

Everyone knows Russia was backing the separatists, using them as puppets while hoping to annex any region that successfully broke away. Their meddling was an attempt to destabilize Ukraine.

 

[Estro Felino]

Everyone knows Russia was backing the separatists, using them as puppets while hoping to annex any region that successfully broke away. Their meddling was an attempt to destabilize Ukraine.

Instead of appeasing the separatists, by giving them more autonomy, Kiev killed them.

Barbarism at its best.
Darwinistically speaking.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Instead of appeasing the separatists, by giving them more autonomy, Kiev killed them.

Barbarism at its best.
Darwinistically speaking.

And hence giving a neighboring country reason to attack - such morality should spread around the globe.

 

[Estro Felino]

And hence giving a neighboring country reason to attack - such morality should spread around the globe.

Exactly.
But I recall that when separatists attacked civilians in South Tyrol, the Italian Government didn't kill them.
We have evolved from the animal stage.

 

[Mock Turtle]

Exactly.
But I recall that when separatists attacked civilians in South Tyrol, the Italian Government didn't kill them.
We have evolved from the animal stage.

Putin hasn't.

 

[Estro Felino]

Putin hasn't.

Neither have Ukrainians, apparently.

2014 Odesa clashes - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Mock Turtle]

Neither have Ukrainians, apparently.

As to defending their country or all being liable for some?

 

[Estro Felino]

As to defending their country or all being liable for some?

If they had respected the Minsk agreements, the two Donbas republics would be two autonomous republics within Ukraine's republic.
They didn't respect the Minsk agreements because Kiev wanted to provoke Russians and to start a war with them.

 

[Father Heathen]

Instead of appeasing the separatists, by giving them more autonomy, Kiev killed them.

Barbarism at its best.
Darwinistically speaking.

But small groups of Russian backed separatists don't represent the majority of those residing in those regions. Also, the separatists initiated the violence, thus making them responsible for any "barbarism".

 

[Mock Turtle]

If they had respected the Minsk agreements, the two Donbas republics would be two autonomous republics within Ukraine's republic.
They didn't respect the Minsk agreements because Kiev wanted to provoke Russians and to start a war with them.

Many countries have such - peoples who would like to live as a particular group - so would you advocate intervention in all such cases or just this one?

 

[Father Heathen]

Exactly.
But I recall that when separatists attacked civilians in South Tyrol, the Italian Government didn't kill them.
We have evolved from the animal stage.

I'm not sure what you're trying to convey here. That attacks on civilians were justified or didn't warrant retaliation by authorities?

 

[Estro Felino]

I'm not sure what you're trying to convey here. That attacks on civilians were justified or didn't warrant retaliation by authorities?

I am trying to convey that the Italian authorities didn't retaliate.

The Ukrainian authorities did retaliate, by killing other separatists in Donbas.

 

[Estro Felino]

But small groups of Russian backed separatists don't represent the majority of those residing in those regions. Also, the separatists initiated the violence, thus making them responsible for any "barbarism".

But Ukrainian civilians were hit by those bombings, as well.
Even if they were aimed at separatist militias.

 

[Stevicus]

Honestly, I am not saying that the Russian Federation are the victims here. The victims is Donbas people.
As I said, there were the Donbas separatists that in 2014 protested against the anti-Russian policies implemented by Poroshenko (there are so many videos proving them, now they want to erase history, but so many lawyers have saved the evidence that frames several people).
The Kiev regime responded with fire. Separatists were killed, it's a fact. And it was just the 2014. Also the protesters against Poroshenko's government were mass murdered in Odessa, in 2014. It's a fact.

So Russia decided to sign the two Minsk agreements, but actually they were all useless, because Kiev didn't respect them. Because Donbas republics didn't receive any autonomy and because separatists were still being killed.

So,...Russians intervened with a war of aggression.

Yes, at least at a political/governmental level, no one is an innocent victim in any of this. Since the fall of the Soviet Union, there have been ethnic Russians in the former Republics who have complained about mistreatment, ostensibly being blamed and punished for the actions of the former regime. Not just in Ukraine, but also in Moldova and in the Baltics where ethnic Russians have lived.

Nationalism is a double-edged sword, and one can even say that those who live by nationalism often die by nationalism. Among other things, it has led to certain notions becoming more widely accepted, such as the idea that, if your grandfather mistreated my grandfather, I now have moral license to mistreat you. (I don't agree with that view, as I think it's quite malignant, but there does seem to be some who do subscribe to such notions.)

The Ukrainians may have felt justified going after ethnic Russians in their territory, because they were resentful over how they were treated by the Soviet government. As a result, we're seeing an ethnic battle - a blood feud - which is very often the source of numerous conflicts throughout the world. It was similar in the former Yugoslavia, as well as throughout many African and Asian countries which were previously colonies and which had their boundaries drawn somewhat willy-nilly by European aristocrats who had no clue as to what they were doing.

In the short term, it looks like there will continue to be a lot of fighting and death. Both sides seem resolved to stay in it to the end, even though no one knows what "the end" may look like.

 

[Estro Felino]

Many countries have such - peoples who would like to live as a particular group - so would you advocate intervention in all such cases or just this one?

My point is: should Ukrainians have respected the Minsk agreements, in your opinion?
Or they did well, not respecting them?

 

[Mock Turtle]

My point is: should Ukrainians have respected the Minsk agreements, in your opinion?
Or they did well, not respecting them?

Should Russia have respected the 1991 agreement?

 

[Father Heathen]

I am trying to convey that the Italian authorities didn't retaliate.

The Ukrainian authorities did retaliate, by killing other separatists in Donbas.

If some group in the U.S. started a violent uprising, killing civilians, etc. of course authorities would use deadly force against it. Why wouldn't any nation?

 

[Estro Felino]

Should Russia have respected the 1991 agreement?

What agreement?
Give me the name.

 

[Father Heathen]

But Ukrainian civilians were hit by those bombings, as well.
Even if they were aimed at separatist militias.

That's of course bad and sad, but Russians on the other hand deliberately target civilians. They don't just bomb them, either. They rape and torture.