Animal sacrifice: out of fashion

[dybmh]

I guess if it’s your thang. I see no real benefit. It’s kind of silly actually.

According to the story, when everything was working properly, a column of fire would descend from the sky and devour the offering on the altar. People could see it for miles. Tell me that wouldn't be cool?

 

[Aupmanyav]

Regarding Jews, some of us would absolutley reinstitute animal sacrifices, and some of us think it's barbaric and hope it never happens again.

I'm in the pro-sacrifice camp. I'm a meat eater, so, why not? For other anti-sacrifice meat eating Jews, I don't think they have any valid reason to prohibit the rest of us from doing sacrifices. But def veggies/vegans make good points and I can understand and appreciate their point of view.

I don't. Any food that we eat is an offering to Brahman, veg. or non-veg., according to Krishna in Gita:

Hindu food prayer:
"Brahmārpañam Brahma havir Brahmāgnau Brahmañāhutaṃ,
Brahmaiva Tena Gantavyam Brahmakarmāh Samādhinah." BG 4.24

(The act of offering is God. The oblation is God. By God it is offered into the Fire of God. God is That which is to be attained by him who performs action pertaining to God. - translations may differ)

Brahmarpanam: The Food Prayer | Sri Sathya Sai International Organization

www.sathyasai.org

 

[Aupmanyav]

And, of course.... Hee-hee. You have to work on all the holidays.

Priests take turns in large temples, their share depends on offering on that day.

 

[Aupmanyav]

The end of Ramadan is traditionally celebrated with the ritual slaughter / sacrifice of goats or sheep.

Dhaka, Bangladesh (animals most probably smuggled from India)

 

[The Hammer]

What about Pagans? Pagan practice was interrupted for centuries so we aren't really sure the exact mechanics of old school paganism. But they use to sacrifice animals, at least according to my book. My book was saying "We DON'T sacrifice animals nowadays!" And it got me thinking... Why?

I would never want to sacrifice animals. Hell, I eventually want to be vegan or vegetarian so I can live a life where I'm not partaking in animal murder.

Any plant/animal I would kill/eat for food is a "sacrifice".

Historically and in Modernity when an animal is sacrificed it is eaten in full by the community as a way of partaking in the ceremony.

 

[VoidCat]

There's ethical ways to do animal sacrifice. Id only do it if the animal was eaten afterwards and was killed ethically that is killed quickly with as little pain as possible

 

[VoidCat]

Oh @an anarchist

Im reminded of a practice that some modren pagans who worship Hecate do these days...its not animal sacrifice but it's close and is a thing done to replace animal sacrifice. Black dogs used to be sacrificed to Hecate. So some on days sacred to her will make a clay statute of a dog and destroy that in her honor rather then kill a dog

 

[danieldemol]

The temple was operating 24/7 **including** on sabbath and holidays. There's daily sacrifices, morning, mid-day, and evening. The lamps need to be kept clean and burning 24/7. The fire on the altar went all night. There's extra sacrifices on the sabbath and the holidays. And none of this includes the voluntary sacrifices that people brought. There's blood and gore and feces to clean up... wood to carry and prepare for the fire. Ashes get hauled away. It's not a fun job. I don't know why people would look at it enviously

You are giving a picture which in my opinion is misleading.

The priests were not from the lower classes of society and not required to work constantly as I understand it.

'The priestly divisions or sacerdotal courses (Hebrew: מִשְׁמָר mishmar) are the groups into which Jewish priests were divided for the purposes of their service in the Temple in Jerusalem...
...Lots were drawn to designate the order of Temple service for the different priestly orders.[7] Each order was responsible for ministering during a different week and Shabbat and were stationed at the Temple in Jerusalem. All of the orders were present during biblical festivals. Their duties involved offering the daily and holiday Temple sacrifices, and administering the Priestly Blessing to the people. The change between shifts took place on Shabbat at midday, with the outgoing shift performing the morning sacrifice, and the incoming shift the afternoon sacrifice.[8]'

Source: Priestly divisions - Wikipedia

So basically as I understand it there were plenty of people to undertake the work and they didn't work constantly contrary to the impression you give of priests slaving away 24/7 in my opinion.

 

[Valjean]

Doesn't the Bible call for animal sacrifice in several places? Doen't it say that God loves the smell of a burnt offering?

 

[an anarchist]

Doesn't the Bible call for animal sacrifice in several places? Doen't it say that God loves the smell of a burnt offering?

That is one thing that is confusing me. In the Old Testament, people tend to sacrifice outside the temple at random places at times

 

[syo]

Honey, you don't know how to butcher an animal. Leave animal sacrifice alone.

 

[dybmh]

You are giving a picture which in my opinion is misleading.

The priests were not from the lower classes of society and not required to work constantly as I understand it.

'The priestly divisions or sacerdotal courses (Hebrew: מִשְׁמָר mishmar) are the groups into which Jewish priests were divided for the purposes of their service in the Temple in Jerusalem...
...Lots were drawn to designate the order of Temple service for the different priestly orders.[7] Each order was responsible for ministering during a different week and Shabbat and were stationed at the Temple in Jerusalem. All of the orders were present during biblical festivals. Their duties involved offering the daily and holiday Temple sacrifices, and administering the Priestly Blessing to the people. The change between shifts took place on Shabbat at midday, with the outgoing shift performing the morning sacrifice, and the incoming shift the afternoon sacrifice.[8]'

Source: Priestly divisions - Wikipedia

So basically as I understand it there were plenty of people to undertake the work and they didn't work constantly contrary to the impression you give of priests slaving away 24/7 in my opinion.

Of course they took shifts...

But they don't only work the holidays, which was what you proposed.

And it is gruesome work.

 

[danieldemol]

Of course they took shifts...

But they don't only work the holidays, which was what you proposed.

And it is gruesome work.

No more gruesome than the work of a farmer who also has to shovel animal feaces and slaughter animals in my opinion.

 

[Windwalker]

It was a ton of work. Do you know what's involved in being a temple priest?

And, of course.... Hee-hee. You have to work on all the holidays.

As others have pointed out, being a farmer is a ton of work too, as well as other occupations. On the surface your argument sounds like the ideas of modern capitalism, that the CEO's are entitled to huge tax breaks and exorbitant salaries because they do the most work, take the greatest risks, or some notion like that.

Of course practically speaking that isn't true at all. Their wage-slaves who work for them are offered the scraps from their golden tables are putting in longer work hours, including working holidays, and in many cases expose themselves greater risks to their own health and even survival, just to get by month to month. There is a definite unjustifiable imbalance in such an arrangement.

That's why I have a certain appreciation for what that radical socialist Jesus of Nazareth said in flipping things like this upside down, saying those at the top should be servants of those at the bottom. He was directly attacking the idea of the priests being more deserving than the masses at the bottom. Just some "food" for thought.

 

[dybmh]

No more gruesome than the work of a farmer who also has to shovel animal feaces and slaughter animals in my opinion.

You're comparing this:



To this:

No more gruesome than the work of a farmer

Consider yourself lucky to be so ignorant.

 

[dybmh]

As others have pointed out, being a farmer is a ton of work too, as well as other occupations. On the surface your argument sounds like the ideas of modern capitalism, that the CEO's are entitled to huge tax breaks and exorbitant salaries because they do the most work, take the greatest risks, or some notion like that.

Of course practically speaking that isn't true at all. Their wage-slaves who work for them are offered the scraps from their golden tables are putting in longer work hours, including working holidays, and in many cases expose themselves greater risks to their own health and even survival, just to get by month to month. There is a definite unjustifiable imbalance in such an arrangement.

That's why I have a certain appreciation for what that radical socialist Jesus of Nazareth said in flipping things like this upside down, saying those at the top should be servants of those at the bottom. He was directly attacking the idea of the priests being more deserving than the masses at the bottom. Just some "food" for thought.

View attachment 76971

What are you talking about? I'm not talking about a CEO. That's a HUGE misrepresentation. I'm talking about a butcher with extremely high standards in a primitive setting who doesn't have a commodity to trade on the market who doesn't have a choice in profession. They have no land of their own.

Maximum false equivilance.

The priests were not at the top! They didn't make rules. They didn't give orders. They didn't have "wage-slaves". Whatever you think was happening is a fiction created in your mind.

 

[Windwalker]

What are you talking about? I'm not talking about a CEO. That's a HUGE misrepresentation. I'm talking about a butcher with extremely high standards in a primitive setting who doesn't have a commodity to trade on the market who doesn't have a choice in profession. They have no land of their own.

You were arguing that priest should get the best from the animal because they had to work harder, plus on holidays. All of that is a reading back into ancient cultures modern sensibilities of a capitalist culture. I cited the CEO, because your argument for the priests is the same argument offered for CEO's getting the best cuts of the calf too, larger salaries, because they are such hard workers, etc.

Maximum false equivilance.

I see a direct parallel with your argument.

The priests were not at the top! They didn't make rules. They didn't give orders. They didn't have "wage-slaves". Whatever you think was happening is a fiction created in your mind.

They didn't make the rules? You mean they were not interpreters of the law, and held the 'lawbreakers', accountable for violating the rules they established? That isn't how that worked?

What was Jesus talking about then when he went after the priests who "strain at gnats and swallow Camels", or seek to punish those who try to heal on the Sabbath because they see that as "working"? That's like saying the lawmakers in Washington aren't making laws, but are simply telling you what the Constitution says. Do you think the priesthood was a univocal voice and opinion on interpreting the law of Moses?

And as far as not being 'at the top', they certainly did hold positions of power over others. Again, back to what Jesus said, "Do what they say, not what they do". In other words, they are supposed to be the authorities. You don't see parallels to the economic and political power structures I was comparing them to today?

While they aren't exact parallels of course, they are close enough to make my point. Certainly, you were making the same argument that conservatives do about CEO's deserving the best because they were harder workers than the unwashed masses.

 

[dybmh]

You were arguing that priest should get the best from the animal because they had to work harder, plus on holidays. All of that is a reading back into ancient cultures modern sensibilities of a capitalist culture. I cited the CEO, because your argument for the priests is the same argument offered for CEO's getting the best cuts of the calf too, larger salaries, because they are such hard workers, etc.

It can't be capitalist. The priest is forced to work in that profession.

I see a direct parallel with your argument.

Only by imagining golden tables and wage slaves and a ruling priest with underlings who did all the hard work while the priest-CEO collects all the profits. None of that happened of course, it's fiction.

They didn't make the rules? You mean they were not interpreters of the law, and held the 'lawbreakers', accountable for violating the rules they established? That isn't how that worked?

NO! That is typical of Christians who smoosh everything together. A priest is NOT a Judge is NOT a scribe. A priest doesn't make rules. A priest doesn't hold anyone accountable.

What was Jesus talking about then when he went after the priests who "strain at gnats and swallow Camels", or seek to punish those who try to heal on the Sabbath because they see that as "working"?

We'd have to review the actual words in the gospels to see. I'm guessing that "strain at gnats and swallow camels" relate to excluding certain offerings because they are not perfect in everyway. And I'm guessing that punishing those who heal on the sabbath is not talking about priests punishing, it's talking about the pharisees.

And as far as not being 'at the top', they certainly did hold positions of power over others. Again, back to what Jesus said, "Do what they say, not what they do". In other words, they are supposed to be the authorities. You don't see parallels to the economic and political power structures I was comparing them to today?

I am 90% sure you are wrong about this. If I recall that statement is talking about the pharisees. This statement came up somewhat recently in a debate, that's why I remember. Again, Christians generally simply do not have the knowledge to distinguish between a priest and a pharisee. They just smoosh it all together.

While they aren't exact parallels of course, they are close enough to make my point. Certainly, you were making the same argument that conservatives do about CEO's deserving the best because they were harder workers than the unwashed masses.

Nope, not even close. I'm saying "It's a dirty job; and y'all have no idea."

 

[rocala]

According to the story, when everything was working properly, a column of fire would descend from the sky and devour the offering on the altar. People could see it for miles. Tell me that wouldn't be cool?

As you requested, it aint cool. I will kill for food or to protect myself or others. Anything else is the exact opposite of cool.

 

[dybmh]

As you requested, it aint cool. I will kill for food or to protect myself or others. Anything else is the exact opposite of cool.

So, if a God exists, and it is proven by a supernatural column of fire that is observable for miles around, and that God saved you from being a slave, and that God provides for you the animal that you just killed to feed yourself, it is NOT cool to share that with the God who has proven its existence to you and others?

You already killed the animal, but won't share it? Why not?