What is nonbinary?

[crossfire]

Fair enough; I'm not an expert on Diamonds; perhaps that is a bad example. My point is, there are some things that rarely happens, when they do, it is not considered a normal occurrence.

Corollary: When something not so uncommon is hidden away and repressed to the point of appearing rare, people will freak out and lose their minds when they encounter it.

 

[Kfox]

Corollary: When something not so uncommon is hidden away and repressed to the point of appearing rare, people will freak out and lose their minds when they encounter it.

But that is not the case when it comes to people born with 6 fingers, it is not something that appears to be rare, it actually IS rare. As is Unisex.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

But that is not the case when it comes to people born with 6 fingers, it is not something that appears to be rare, it actually IS rare. As is Unisex.

Yeah, that is descriptive but not normative, because such a human is still a human.
Now I am rare as crazy, yet I am still a human. So how you want me to behave is in you as subjective, beyond that I am rare.

 

[crossfire]

But that is not the case when it comes to people born with 6 fingers, it is not something that appears to be rare, it actually IS rare. As is Unisex.

I was referring to nonbinary folk, the topic of this thread.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I was referring to nonbinary folk, the topic of this thread.

The trick is to conflate descriptive with normative and then don't understand that. It is a bit like a negative is a negative. The first is descriptive, the second normative in some cases and then don't notice the difference.

 

[Kfox]

I was referring to nonbinary folk, the topic of this thread.

No, I was having a conversation with someone else who made the point that some people have XYX chromosomes rather than just xx or xy, and I agreed stating that is called inter sex which is considered an abnormality. He took issue with my use of the word abnormality which lead to people with 6 fingers or conjoined twins being abnormality, until you eventually entered the conversation to defend his position.

 

[Kfox]

Yeah, that is descriptive but not normative, because such a human is still a human.

To be human has nothing to do with normal vs abnormal

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

To be human has nothing to do with normal vs abnormal

So if I am abnormal do you have the authority to tell me to behave normally?

 

[Kfox]

So if I am abnormal do you have the authority to tell me to behave normally?

I have no more authority over you than you have over me. Yeah; we can tell each other how the other should behave, but unless there are legal issues involved, there is no obligation to listen. That's why the ability to make a good argument is important when it comes to subjective views.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

I have no more authority over you than you have over me. Yeah; we can tell each other how the other should behave, but unless there are legal issues involved, there is no obligation to listen. That's why the ability to make a good argument is important when it comes to subjective views.

So you can't tell someone else if they understand themselves to be of another gender, that it is wrong in any sense as a fact?
All you have is your subjectivity and they have theirs? Is that it or have I missed something?

 

[Kfox]

So you can't tell someone else if they understand themselves to be of another gender, that it is wrong in any sense as a fact?
All you have is your subjectivity and they have theirs? Is that it or have I missed something?

The only thing I've said about gender identity is that I don't understand it, so I've asked questions concerning it and perhaps expressed why it does not make sense to me. I've never said people are wrong to feel this way, or that my views concerning the issue is based on objective fact.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

The only thing I've said about gender identity is that I don't understand it, so I've asked questions concerning it and perhaps expressed why it does not make sense to me. I've never said people are wrong to feel this way, or that my views concerning the issue is based on objective fact.

So if some one feels nonbinary, that is okay, even if it is abnormal? Is that it?

 

[Kfox]

So if some one feels nonbinary, that is okay, even if it is abnormal? Is that it?

Yes.

 

[Hermit Philosopher]

what do you mean that most dogs and ducks are of one sex? then you say don't exclude the odd exception? (what?)

Apologies @YoursTrue, I missed this question and only saw it now.

Hermaphroditism (chromosomal condition) is known to have be found in non-hermaphrodite species, like dogs, people, etc. too. It’s rare but it does occur.

Anyhow, that’s a physical thing. Gender, as mentioned, is not.


Humbly,
Hermit

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Except duck and dog are species. Gender is a social concept.

Is it?
I could swear it is a biological thing also.

It's a label we apply to people and to ourselves based on a set of subjectively defined criteria that have changed throughout history.

I disagree with that.
I think objectively, genders are very straightforward as it is a biological thing.

That doesn't mean that I don't acknowledge that there are people out there who feel disconnected from their bodies.
But their bodies are what they are.

Regardless of how you "identify" or "feel you should be", generally your gender is rather obvious at the day of your birth.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

So what is a "man"? How do you look at someone and identify them as a "man" if the traits are irrelevant?

Born with a penis and in possession of a Y chromosome.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

So it all really boils down to what someone wishes to be called? Are the words male and female without any meaning then?

To the ideologists, they don't mean anything, that's for sure. "Man" or "woman" are just masks in their thinking. The funny thing is, they think they're defending trans people with that junk but it just makes things worse. A lot of us find it totally stupid and wish this crap would go away. A man is an adult human male and a woman is an adult human female. It's not an "identity". I don't "identify" as a man. That's just part of who I am. I'm Frank. Transsexuals are people with a medical condition and are better off living as the opposite sex to which they were born. The exceptions don't destroy the rule. Obviously it's based in biology or else transsexuals wouldn't exist in the first place!

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Is it?
I could swear it is a biological thing also.

There is sex and there is gender. We can identify something as having, or being associated with, a gender, even if biology has nothing to do with it. We define things as "men's clothes" or "girl's dolls". We distinguish between certain things as being masculine or feminine, despite many of these things having no basis in biology.

I disagree with that.
I think objectively, genders are very straightforward as it is a biological thing.

Then you cannot possibly assess the gender of anyone unless you investigate their biology, you can never refer to men's or women's modes of dress, cannot associate anything with being either masculine or feminine outside of individual biology and would never associate anything beyond biology with the concept of being male or female.

Obviously, you do these things, so there must be more to the social idea of gender than a rigid, unmoving association with biology.

That doesn't mean that I don't acknowledge that there are people out there who feel disconnected from their bodies.
But their bodies are what they are.

That's fine. You can say a person has a male or female body, or a male or female biology, etc.. But that doesn't mean that that association should dictate any social prescriptions of that person, including name, pronouns, dress, etc..

Regardless of how you "identify" or "feel you should be", generally your gender is rather obvious at the day of your birth.

No, your biology is obvious at the day of your birth. What's not obvious is how you will eventually prefer to be seen or identified.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Born with a penis and in possession of a Y chromosome.

So, before you ever refer to anyone as a male or with male pronouns, you first investigate whether or not they have a penis or a Y chromosome?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

There is sex and there is gender. We can identify something as having, or being associated with, a gender, even if biology has nothing to do with it. We define things as "men's clothes" or "girl's dolls". We distinguish between certain things as being masculine or feminine, despite many of these things having no basis in biology.


Then you cannot possibly assess the gender of anyone unless you investigate their biology, you can never refer to men's or women's modes of dress, cannot associate anything with being either masculine or feminine outside of individual biology and would never associate anything beyond biology with the concept of being male or female.

I think you are being disingenuous. We are talking about people, not about goods like clothes and dolls and stuff.