Does the Apostle Paul claim that Jesus Christ, the holy anointed man, is Almighty God?

[Truthseeker]

I read that verse in context and Hebrews 1:10 is not God speaking about the Son.
It is Jesus the Son speaking about God the Father, calling Him Lord.
In the beginning the Lord God hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of God's hand.

8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hand

Myself, I see the author of Hebrews as some anonymous person who has an opinion that may or may not be right in the things he writes there. But Brian won't buy that argument, I know.

 

[Brian2]

I read that verse in context and Hebrews 1:10 is not God speaking about the Son.
It is Jesus the Son speaking about God the Father, calling Him Lord.
In the beginning the Lord God hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of God's hand.

8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hand

That is an interesting take on it but I don't see Jesus speaking about God anywhere in Heb 1.
The whole chapter is about the equality of Jesus with His Father and the Sons superiority over the angels and gives quotes, from verse 5 on, from the OT, about what God has said about the Son.
Hebrews 1:10-12 is one of those quotes.
All the way through we see the Son being called God and being shown to be equal to His Father.

 

[Brian2]

Myself, I see the author of Hebrews as some anonymous person who has an opinion that may or may not be right in the things he writes there. But Brian won't buy that argument, I know.

No I don't buy that, I see that as a Baha'i denying the Bible and that being the fruit of the false prophet Baha'u'llah.

 

[Trailblazer]

The Father did not become a man, He sent His Son to become a man. So the totality of God did not become a man.

Jesus did not have to become a man because Jesus was a man. Jesus was also a Manifestation of God.
No, all of God did not become a man. The Essence of God did not became a man. God only manifested His attributes in Jesus, not His Essence.

God is not a man but that does not mean that God cannot become a man if He so chooses.

If God became a man God would no longer be God since God is not a man. Do you see the problem?

Before the Son became a man He was in the form of God and invisible. Then He stepped into the creation as a man with a body and became visible but still exactly like His Father, the image of His Father.
Jesus was the visible manifestation of God as a man.

You got that correct. I am glad we are making progress.

Jesus IS now both God and man. Sounds like a good mediator between God and man to me.

Jesus has a twofold nature, both divine and human, so Jesus is a God-man. Since Jesus is divine He can understand God and since Jesus is human He can understand humans, and that is why He was able to be a mediator between God and man.

 

[Truthseeker]

Do you really think none of the theologians of the Christian church, over the last 2000 years, have been aware of these passages? Or are you alleging a grand conspiracy to pervert their true meaning?

There was some disageeent with the trinity over the first few centuries, but then after Nicea, it was decided no one could think for themselves, and they had be believe in the trinity, or else be a heretic. That solidified the trinity doctine among Christians after a whle. Of course, in the modren era religion ceased to be monolithic in belief, but still, in each denomiation or sect, in most of those no one is supposed to think for themselves. There is an inertia from the original hardening of belief in the Trinity that carried on to most denominations. Belief that Jesus is God, in my opinion, has continued in most denominations because it makes them feel more exalted than people of other religions. It is an ego thing.

Even in the first few centuries most believed that Jesus was God because of ego. Ego can really deceive, just like Satan is supposed to do. In fact, Baha'is believe that Satan is ego, in effect.

 

[Trailblazer]

No I don't buy that, I see that as a Baha'i denying the Bible and that being the fruit of the false prophet Baha'u'llah.

That was only @Truthseeker 's personal opinion. It does not represent the Baha'i Faith.

 

[Truthseeker]

No I don't buy that, I see that as a Baha'i denying the Bible and that being the fruit of the false prophet Baha'u'llah.

No, it is the fruit of my thinking for myself. Baha'u'llah said nothing about this. Of course, you could say that I am not inclined to believe that Hebrews is the Word of God because I am attached to my beliefs, as of course all people are, myself included.

 

[Truthseeker]

That was only @Truthseeker 's personal opinion. It does not represent the Baha'i Faith.

Yes, as I just said to him, but in other words.

 

[exchemist]

There was some disageeent with the trinity over the first few centuries, but then after Nicea, it was decided no one could think for themselves, and they had be believe in the trinity, or else be a heretic. That solidified the trinity doctine among Christians after a whle. Of course, in the modren era religion ceased to be monolithic in belief, but still, in each denomiation or sect, in most of those no one is supposed to think for themselves. There is an inertia from the original hardening of belief in the Trinity that carried on to most denominations. Belief that Jesus is God, in my opinion, has continued in most denominations because it makes them feel more exalted than people of other religions. It is an ego thing.

Even in the first few centuries most believed that Jesus was God because of ego. Ego can really deceive, just like Satan is supposed to do. In fact, Baha'is believe that Satan is ego, in effect.

I don't follow this. Why would "ego" make people think Jesus was God?

 

[exchemist]

To be the only true religion.

How would that objective be served by claiming Jesus was God?

 

[Soapy]

Because He lowered Himself and became flesh/human. The Father God anointed His Son for His earthly ministry.

Why was Jesus anointed BY GOD if he IS GOD?

What you replied did not answer the question.

Trinity states that Jesus WAS STILL GOD even when he had lowered himself to become man!

Therefore, you are saying that ‘GOD anointed Himself’ which is not what the truth states:
“God anointed this man Jesus with the Holy Spirit and with power and he went around doing good’ (paraphrased).

Jesus, himself, says he can only do what his spiritual Father shows him. The one whom does what he is shown and does it exactly, is called “Son”.

A holy Angel is a spirit Son of God.

Jesus is a flesh, blood, and bone Son of God.

God is not a Son... God is “Father” (Head / Life giver / Creator) of the sinless Son.

A Son is not God. A Son is not ‘Father’, is not ‘Creator / Life Giver / Head’ of what his Father is head, creator, life giver of.

 

[Brian2]

Jesus did not have to become a man because Jesus was a man.

OK God sent His Son, the Word, to become a man.

Jesus was also a Manifestation of God.
No, all of God did not become a man. The Essence of God did not became a man. God only manifested His attributes in Jesus, not His Essence.

It sounds like Baha'i double talk to say that Jesus had the attributes of God but not His Essence.

Heb1:1 In the past God spoke to our ancestors through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom also he made the universe. 3 The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 4 So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.

If God became a man God would no longer be God since God is not a man. Do you see the problem?

God does not lie like men do and God can become a man if He wants to.
Jesus has 2 natures and one of them is the nature of His Father, God nature. Jesus is the Son of God with the nature of His Father.

Jesus has a twofold nature, both divine and human, so Jesus is a God-man. Since Jesus is divine He can understand God and since Jesus is human He can understand humans, and that is why He was able to be a mediator between God and man.

I would call it 2 natures. Jesus took the nature of a servant but remained in the nature of God also. So the more modern translations of Phil 2 tell us.
Phil 2:6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.

"in very nature" is usually translated as ""in the form of". But the meaning is not the outer form, but the inner form, the nature of.
The word "being" in verse 6 tells us that He remained in that form (in the nature of God) when He took the nature of a servant and was made in the outer likeness of a human.

 

[Brian2]

No, it is the fruit of my thinking for myself. Baha'u'llah said nothing about this. Of course, you could say that I am not inclined to believe that Hebrews is the Word of God because I am attached to my beliefs, as of course all people are, myself included.

It's just that denying the Bible is what Baha'is have to do if the want to see Baha'u'llah as the return of Christ and if they want to believe what Baha'u'llah tells us about other things.
So denial of the Bible is a must for Baha'is and is the fruit of Baha'u'llah.

 

[Soapy]

The Father did not become a man, He sent His Son to become a man. So the totality of God did not become a man.

Brian, why are you still squirming…?

God ‘SENT HIS SON’ is after Jesus was anointed BY God with His holy spirit. Jesus being sent into the world means:

• ‘To face adversity, to face the evil one, to be severely tempted, etc.”

You can see this in Jesus’ sayings:

• ‘I am no longer in the world …’

meaning that he had overcome ‘adversity, the evil one, temptation’. He no longer was subjected to these things. BUT HIS DISCIPLES STILL WERE:

• ‘But they are still in the world …[Father,] protect them by the power of your name ’

Brian, I know there are those who need to be what they are but the fact that you choose to remain as you are is the problem. You know you are making up responses to try to fit the trinity lie … but this means you are willingly participating in disseminating a falsehood about the God you claim to worship.

God is not a man but that does not mean that God cannot become a man if He so chooses.

Spirit is spirit and Flesh is flesh.
God is Spirit. Man is Flesh.
God cannot become man just as God cannot lie!!

That means that God does not lie as men do, He is trustworthy.

What???? What are you saying? That God CAN LIE but just ‘not as men do!’?

Brian, you are outdoing yourself in your pursuit of falsity against the one true God.

Before the Son became a man He was in the form of God and invisible. Then He stepped into the creation as a man with a body and became visible but still exactly like His Father, the image of His Father.
Jesus was the visible manifestation of God as a man.

‘Form of God’… what is the ‘Form of God’?
So God is a white spirit person with a beard and long hair in a turban. Brian, you need to stop from continuing where you are going with this false ideology.

Jesus IS now both God and man. Sounds like a good mediator between God and man to me.

Brian, scriptures is quite clear:

• “A mediator, however, implies more than one party; but God is one.” (Galatians 3:20)
• “For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,” (1 Tim 2:5)

You know these verses. A mediator is BETWEEN the two parties but is not, himself, subject to either party.

Jesus is neither Sinless Almighty God, nor SINFUL man. He is GLORIFIED man. No scriptures says Jesus is Almighty God in any context.

 

[Soapy]

Isa 44:24 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer who formed you from the womb: “I am the LORD, who has made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who by Myself spread out the earth,

Speaking about the Son, God says:
Hebrews 1:10 He also says,
“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.

When we compare Isa 44:24 and Heb 1:10 we can see that the Son is YHWH.
Saying this does not deny that the Father and the Holy Spirit are also YHWH however.

Ha ha ha… Brian, you truly are too smart for yourself… It is not you that made you say what you just said: Check who the spirit is that put these ideas to you. Not all revelations are from almighty God.

 

[Kenny]

Could this actually be an example of MISTRANSLATION OR ADDITIONAL TEXT by the trinitarian translators attempting to claim that it ‘YHWH’ lied that he and he alone, created all things?
((Recall also that trinity says that it was Jesus Christ who created all things….?!))

I don't think so, it is more of application of what we read...

Paul said::

Christ’s Humility and Exaltation
5 Make your own attitude that of Christ Jesus,

6 who, existing in the form of God,
did not consider equality with God
as something to be used for His own advantage.
7 Instead He emptied Himself
by assuming the form of a slave,
taking on the likeness of men.
And when He had come as a man
in His external form,
8 He humbled Himself by becoming obedient
to the point of death—
even to death on a cross.
9 For this reason God highly exalted Him
and gave Him the name
that is above every name,
10 so that at the name of Jesus
every knee will bow—
of those who are in heaven and on earth
and under the earth—
11 and every tongue should confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

He was not only in the form of God but had equality with the Father. Thus all things were created by him and nothing that we see created was created without him.

Obviously, if the Father created The Word, then not all things were created by him.

 

[Colt]

It is claimed that the Apostles Paul said:

• For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”), yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.“ (1 Cor 8:5-6)

The verses first says that there is only one God [who is] the Father, FROM WHOM ALL THINGS CAME.

The verse continues saying that ‘There is only one Lord [who is] Jesus Christ.’

But then it says something strange and counter-intuitive. It says that all things came ‘THROUGH’ Jesus Christ.

But if all things came FROM THE FATHER, how did all things come THROUGH JESUS CHRIST?
((Recall also that trinity says that it was Jesus Christ who created all things….?!))

All [good] things are from the Father:

• “Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.“ (James 1:17)
• “This is what the LORD says— your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb: I am the LORD, the Maker of all things, who stretches out the heavens, who spreads out the earth by myself,” (Isaiah 44:24)

We know that the ‘LORD’ is ‘YHWH’, God; the Father. And it states in that verse in Isaiah that it is ‘YHWH’ that created all things.

Why then does of ‘appear’ that Paul is claiming all things CAME TO BE THROUGH Jesus Christ?

Could this actually be an example of MISTRANSLATION OR ADDITIONAL TEXT by the trinitarian translators attempting to claim that it ‘YHWH’ lied that he and he alone, created all things?
((Recall also that trinity says that it was Jesus Christ who created all things….?!))

Think what it would mean for the preaching of Almighty God, and his SERVANT Christ, to be brought into disrepute for the sake of deviant ideology?

All of the divine Sons of God are part of the plural manifestation of God.

 

[Kenny]

"In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God." ..... "The Word was made flesh and dwelt among us.."

OK, one can say St John's gospel was written last and was "corrupted" by nascent Trinitarian theology, but then you have to decide to write off St John's gospel - to my mind the one with the most beautiful and powerful ideas - as inauthentic. Christians can't really do that.

That is SO good! Logical and well thought out. Thanks !

 

[Soapy]

They are 2 distinct entities, but are never separate imo.

Well that cannot be true, can it, Brian. Jesus is connected to God by the dependency he has with God. But even so, what if this:

• “About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”)” (Matt 27:46)

Is that not a separation?

 

[Soapy]

God cannot lower Himself and become a man, unless the Bible is wrong.

Hosea 11:9 I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city.

Numbers 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

If Jesus was the image of God that means Jesus was not God, since an image is not the same as what it reflects.
If God is invisible, that means Jesus was not God, since Jesus was visible to many people.

Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature.

If Jesus was a mediator 'between' God and man, that means Jesus was not God or a man. Jesus was a Manifestation of God who has a twofold nature, so He was both human and divine, which is what He could serve as a mediator between God and man.

1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

Is the Sheepherder the owner of the sheep OR the sheep that he herds?

Is the Sheepherder BOTH the owner of the sheep AND the sheep that he herds?

A mediator is NEITHER of the two between whom he mediates.